Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?
- Thread starter just-me
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The first covenant had a body of law that could not make man perfect; it could only require that man be perfect. For that reason GOD found fault with that covenant and replaced it with a better covenant that has a better law that can make man perfect, i.e., a resurrected life that makes alive forever.
Right on. Paul was showing them the Mosaic Law, and what God really wanted in the Spiritual way concerning being circumcised. Here is some scripture that he, more than likely, presented to them.
Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Jeremiah 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Jeremiah 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
You do understand that the Old Testament, and Old covenant are relatives from Genesis through Malachi, which includes the Mosaic Law - right? Do you know what this scripture means?
Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
This scripture means that the Old was still in effect until the death of the one who made the testament of the New.
So all of the teachings of Jesus Christ were under the Old, and after His resurrection His teachings were under the New. Marvelous ain't it?
Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
This scripture means that the Old was still in effect until the death of the one who made the testament of the New.
So all of the teachings of Jesus Christ were under the Old, and after His resurrection His teachings were under the New. Marvelous ain't it?
S
God found fault with His own Law and therefore changed it? Did Christ say that? NOT. Christ said the Law would always endure. God gave man His Law to show man how to live. From the beginning, the sacrificial laws were put into place to point to Christ's coming and His fulfillment of those sacrificial laws, which was necessary because man could not keep the law perfectly. Because Christ has now fulfilled the sacrificial lamb part of the law, we can now keep the law through Him, and if we fall (scripture) our advocate is Christ.
This truth was exemplified when Christ turned back the crowd that was about to stone the adulterous woman. Christ became her advocate, just as He is ours. What did He say to her when her accusers were gone?
"Your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more."
That's the same thing He says to us when He forgives our sins, and we learned what sin is from the Law He wrote with His own hand. They have not changed. They will never change. God never changes. Sin will always be sin, and His law tells us what sin is.
This truth was exemplified when Christ turned back the crowd that was about to stone the adulterous woman. Christ became her advocate, just as He is ours. What did He say to her when her accusers were gone?
"Your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more."
That's the same thing He says to us when He forgives our sins, and we learned what sin is from the Law He wrote with His own hand. They have not changed. They will never change. God never changes. Sin will always be sin, and His law tells us what sin is.
Last edited by a moderator:
Really? Is that what it means to you? Why are all of you so quick to misunderstand what is said when it deviates from your nice little paradigm of law (that none of you really keep btw)?
This is an example of looking beyond Moses: You have heard it said [by Moses], 'do not commit adultery'. But I say to you, he that looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery.
This is an example of looking beyond Moses: You have heard it said [by Moses], 'do not commit adultery'. But I say to you, he that looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery.
I take that teaching as a principle that God gave to Moses. One can be tempted to see another woman rather than the one your married to, and then one is confronted with a choice. Resist the temptation, or entertain it. Ain't hard. Following the Spiritual aspects of the Mosaic Law makes the Law Spiritual just like Paul said. God didn't approve of the adultery of Israel, he doesn't approve of ours either.
Last edited:
K
Why just why, please explain and overwhelm me with the most intelligence of man kind. Why would you trust in law, when the the free gift of righteousness is in faith of Christ. Why keep law for righteousness when it is a free gift for those who place their faith in Christ. Why slave yourself for a free gift. My daddy always said that you can work hard to keep from working. I find him to be more true everyday.
If God didn't give Moses principles within the law, He never would have given Paul principles about the law either. I would differ with you saying that God didn't give Moses principles for there are "good" principles, just principles, holy principles, and Spiritual principles. I'm sure you agree with that.
Romans 7:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Resist adultery............ kinda like that.
Romans 7:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Resist adultery............ kinda like that.
Last edited:
S
This makes no sense whatsoever. Obviously I would not know what sin is without God's Laws. Obviously I could not see how the festivals and feasts and sacrificial practices pointed to Christ if I didn't have the mosaic law. The mosaic law was a complete package. It consisted of the Laws of God which defined sin as well as the payment for the penalty of breaking those laws. When you repeatedly mention the "shadows" involved in the law, obviously the shadows reflected Christ's death on the cross which fulfilled those shadows. So those shadows could ONLY be shadows of those things to come, which was Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Yes, those shadows were fulfilled. The laws that teach us how to live righteously, as Christ Himself said, will endure forever.
Oh ya... I almost forgot, the 10 commandments are a summery of the other 613 laws.............. give or take. Just like love is the fulfilling of the law, and lo and behold the exhortation of loving God and loving our neighbor is in the law. It's a principle. Love is a summery of the law and the law is love , for God is love. The law describes how love works.
Deuteronomy 6:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.
And then Jesus also taught these principles. Teaching under the Old Testament/Covenant. It was, and is God's Law given to Moses.
Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Deuteronomy 6:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.
And then Jesus also taught these principles. Teaching under the Old Testament/Covenant. It was, and is God's Law given to Moses.
Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Last edited:
S
I just realized something Just-me. Forums such as this where people under avatar names discuss issues such as these are not about the people in here making these arguments. These arguments themselves are about the issues and the types of arguments put forth by the different types of people. Some represent the seed that falls on the rocks and never takes root, some represent seed that falls in shallow soil and the roots never grow deep, some represent seed that fall amongst thorns and are choked out, and some represent those who take solid root and continue to grow, their roots deepening even as they grow big and strong.
That's why it's of no consequence to get angry or take anything said in here personally. Again, everyone in here represents a "type." That type is represented by 1) their attitude towards others, and 2) their willingness to listen and reason things out in ways that take all scripture into account and never contradict any of it. But the biggest point here is that we really shouldn't be thinking along the lines of trying to change anyone's mind on these subjects (on this site) or should we be expecting that. Jesus delivered His message knowing that only those WITH EARS TO HEAR would hear his message, so He fashioned His messages strictly for them. Again, that's how we should think about what's discussed on these threads. It's not about changing anyone's mind that doesn't want to hear us. It's about relaying truth to those WITH EARS TO HEAR and them alone.
People read sites and never even check in or take part. They follow the different lines of reasoning represented. Among them are the ears that hear we're speaking to, no one else.
That's why it's of no consequence to get angry or take anything said in here personally. Again, everyone in here represents a "type." That type is represented by 1) their attitude towards others, and 2) their willingness to listen and reason things out in ways that take all scripture into account and never contradict any of it. But the biggest point here is that we really shouldn't be thinking along the lines of trying to change anyone's mind on these subjects (on this site) or should we be expecting that. Jesus delivered His message knowing that only those WITH EARS TO HEAR would hear his message, so He fashioned His messages strictly for them. Again, that's how we should think about what's discussed on these threads. It's not about changing anyone's mind that doesn't want to hear us. It's about relaying truth to those WITH EARS TO HEAR and them alone.
People read sites and never even check in or take part. They follow the different lines of reasoning represented. Among them are the ears that hear we're speaking to, no one else.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi - I hear so many people talk of righteousness. They say I am righteous by faith. This following verse takes the mystery out of righteousness.
There is a problem with the concept of righteousness. First I must start by quoting this verse ---
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.
Doing the right thing makes a person righteous. This is the concept of righteousness.
The problem with the misunderstanding of righteousness is the word "imputed".
If you do a study on the word translated "imputed" (strongs 1. Hebrew word # 2803, 2. Greek word # 3049, 3. Greek word # 1677), a person will find that it comes from 3 different Hebrew and Greek words. The Hebrew and Greek languages are translated using the word "Imputed" but this concept is better understood by the modern reader as referring to the concept by using the word "reckoned" or recognized.
The word is better translated as the word "Recognized" as the concept would be understood in the 21st century. As in recognizing a trait that already existed instead of conferring something upon a person that they did not possess already.
The popular and modern misunderstanding of the word "imputed" carries the idea of conferring something upon someone. Whereas the actual verses that use this word that is translated as "imputed" suggest that the concept is not one of conferring an attribute of right standing upon a person, but one of recognizing that the person has done what is necessary to be in right standing.
There are only nine verses in the KJV which translate a word as "imputed" so it is not a very lengthy study.
What this means and how this pertains to the conversation is this -- If someone is recognized as having done the right thing then there is a standard for that right thing. To use another word there is a standard for righteousness. There is a standard for doing what is right as can be understood from 1 Jn 3:7.
This standard is of course the Law.
Now I know it is very popular to say we cannot keep the Law. But that is not so as Deut 30:11 tells us.
De 30:11 (ASV) For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
Just as an experiment, and along these same lines, try telling a person or for that matter a preacher that it is possible to be blameless before God. Many people were blameless or just as you will find with study. The reason for this is that the Law (even the Law of the Old Testament) told a person how to be forgiven if they transgressed the Law or sinned, 1 Jn 3:4.
So after a person offers the appropriate sacrifice they are forgiven and blameless according to the law of God. They can then be scripturally referred to as righteous by faith. In other words the person who made the appropriate sacrifice had faith that in so doing they would be doing the right thing as God had mandated.
Faith is believing that God exists and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Jesus said that nothing had passed away from the Law - He also summarized all of the Law in two commands. Love God and neighbor.
The only thing that changed from the Ot to the Nt was the sacrifice that a person offered to God in order to obtain forgiveness.
Many of the Ot Laws are allegorical in nature, but not understanding the Laws allegorical nature does not negate the reality it symbolizes. We may not understand the allegorical nature of many Ot laws and call it legalism when we try to follow them.
Jesus however understood all of the allegorical statement contained in the Ot. Law and He said personally that all the Law and the prophets admonitions are fulfilled when we Love God and Neighbor, Matt 22:36-40 and Rm 13:9.
Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
(ASV)
Summed up as in - all the commandments added together equal love for your neighbor.
Respectfully - Brian
There is a problem with the concept of righteousness. First I must start by quoting this verse ---
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.
Doing the right thing makes a person righteous. This is the concept of righteousness.
The problem with the misunderstanding of righteousness is the word "imputed".
If you do a study on the word translated "imputed" (strongs 1. Hebrew word # 2803, 2. Greek word # 3049, 3. Greek word # 1677), a person will find that it comes from 3 different Hebrew and Greek words. The Hebrew and Greek languages are translated using the word "Imputed" but this concept is better understood by the modern reader as referring to the concept by using the word "reckoned" or recognized.
The word is better translated as the word "Recognized" as the concept would be understood in the 21st century. As in recognizing a trait that already existed instead of conferring something upon a person that they did not possess already.
The popular and modern misunderstanding of the word "imputed" carries the idea of conferring something upon someone. Whereas the actual verses that use this word that is translated as "imputed" suggest that the concept is not one of conferring an attribute of right standing upon a person, but one of recognizing that the person has done what is necessary to be in right standing.
There are only nine verses in the KJV which translate a word as "imputed" so it is not a very lengthy study.
What this means and how this pertains to the conversation is this -- If someone is recognized as having done the right thing then there is a standard for that right thing. To use another word there is a standard for righteousness. There is a standard for doing what is right as can be understood from 1 Jn 3:7.
This standard is of course the Law.
Now I know it is very popular to say we cannot keep the Law. But that is not so as Deut 30:11 tells us.
De 30:11 (ASV) For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
Just as an experiment, and along these same lines, try telling a person or for that matter a preacher that it is possible to be blameless before God. Many people were blameless or just as you will find with study. The reason for this is that the Law (even the Law of the Old Testament) told a person how to be forgiven if they transgressed the Law or sinned, 1 Jn 3:4.
So after a person offers the appropriate sacrifice they are forgiven and blameless according to the law of God. They can then be scripturally referred to as righteous by faith. In other words the person who made the appropriate sacrifice had faith that in so doing they would be doing the right thing as God had mandated.
Faith is believing that God exists and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Jesus said that nothing had passed away from the Law - He also summarized all of the Law in two commands. Love God and neighbor.
The only thing that changed from the Ot to the Nt was the sacrifice that a person offered to God in order to obtain forgiveness.
Many of the Ot Laws are allegorical in nature, but not understanding the Laws allegorical nature does not negate the reality it symbolizes. We may not understand the allegorical nature of many Ot laws and call it legalism when we try to follow them.
Jesus however understood all of the allegorical statement contained in the Ot. Law and He said personally that all the Law and the prophets admonitions are fulfilled when we Love God and Neighbor, Matt 22:36-40 and Rm 13:9.
Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
(ASV)
Summed up as in - all the commandments added together equal love for your neighbor.
Respectfully - Brian
Hi - I saw that someone quoted the following verses so I will go into this a bit --
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
God found fault with them - His followers. He did not find fault with His law as is seen in verse 10.
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
In verse 9 God tells us why He found fault with the Old Covenant. Because they continued not in the covenant.
Then in Heb 8:10 He tells us what He was going to change, thereby correcting the fault.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
God corrected this by putting the Law on hearts instead of tablets.
Respectfully - Brian
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
God found fault with them - His followers. He did not find fault with His law as is seen in verse 10.
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
In verse 9 God tells us why He found fault with the Old Covenant. Because they continued not in the covenant.
Then in Heb 8:10 He tells us what He was going to change, thereby correcting the fault.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
God corrected this by putting the Law on hearts instead of tablets.
Respectfully - Brian
Last edited: