The Necessity of Tongues For Prayer Language

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If we look at the meaning of 1 Cor 14:1, "desire" it means to covet earnestly, have a feeling for or be envious or jealous over. If todays churches had such desire for the gifts as Paul said to, then instead of arguing against them, they would be using them for the edification of the body. Until that time, you cannot go into a regular denominational church and expect to hear any spiritual gifts exercisedin the church. That is a key reason why these churches are lacking when it comes to edification and more focus is put upon self-help books and worldly psychology and counselling as substitutes for the work of the Spirit. Not only that, but when you receive the gifts of the spirit that is because you have the gift-giver, the Spirit, and the Spirit results in holiness. Churches who reject the spiritual gifts, also reject the Spirit, and we will find they generally lack the degree of holiness that churches who accept the spiritual gifts, have.
 
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MahogonySnail said:
If we look at the meaning of 1 Cor 14:1, "desire" it means to covet earnestly, have a feeling for or be envious or jealous over. If todays churches had such desire for the gifts as Paul said to, then instead of arguing against them, they would be using them for the edification of the body. Until that time, you cannot go into a regular denominational church and expect to hear any spiritual gifts exercisedin the church. That is a key reason why these churches are lacking when it comes to edification and more focus is put upon self-help books and worldly psychology and counselling as substitutes for the work of the Spirit. Not only that, but when you receive the gifts of the spirit that is because you have the gift-giver, the Spirit, and the Spirit results in holiness. Churches who reject the spiritual gifts, also reject the Spirit, and we will find they generally lack the degree of holiness that churches who accept the spiritual gifts, have.
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Wow! there is something else that I agree with snail about.
 
MahogonySnail said:
Paul also said:
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Paul is discouraging the use of tongues for edification of the body, without interpretation. Tongues may be used in church without any purpose for edification of others. Whether or not that's acceptable depends upon whether or not the purpose is to edify. Sometimes a group may get together and all speak in tongues at the same time, just as they did in the book of Acts. Then it becomes a group session of personal edification or demonstration. But if it is to be used to edify others, it must be interpreted.





Firstly, the interpretation of a tongue does not dictate whether a person is from God or not. That is a fallacy. Scripture gives clear guidelines as to those who have the Spirit or not and it is based on the confession of the person's mouth about Jesus. That said, there are plenty of people who do not speak in tongues, who may not be from God, particularly those who ridicule and belittle God's gifts, even moreso, those who attribute them to satan and those who use them. I don't think you are like that BLC but just warning you that is where many of the anti-tongues arguments found on the internet come from that is what is in their heart - hatred and rejection of the Holy Spirit, must like God's own people had rejected the Spirit by the time Christ came to earth. I recommend you learn to speak in tongues first, and then you'll have a better idea of what tongues is, how it is used, and its limitations. To answer your questions, yes I'm aware of some who claim they can speak in tongues only at certain times and no other or can't no longer. I don't think that is biblical. I think BLU gave such an example, about how he started to speak in tongues and then couldnt anymore or something. So no, not everyone who claims to have it has it. Just as with anything. But I believe when God gives a gift, He does not take it away.



I received the gift of tongues after asking for the infilling of the Holy Spirit during prayer time. At the time I wanted it because I desired the gifts according to 1 Corinthians 14:1.
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This is a great post, good job.
 
Tongues do not and can not replace or substitute the preaching and teaching of God's word and the gospel of Christ. If tongues edifies the church, the edification must be according to the scriptures including any prophesy that is given. If the gift of tongues is exercised without an interpretation that is according to the scriptures, it provides no true edification for the church. If it has an interpretation according to the scriptures, in word or prophecy, it becomes unnecessary because the scriptures and prophecy can be taught by those that are given as a gift to the church. Any prophecy given of a future event that has not taken place, has no edification or authority until it comes to past.

If the prophecy was according to what the written word has already testified such as, 'Christ is coming back in the clouds of the air, so get ready, He will be coming soon and His reward is with Him', we can read and study that in the scriptures and have a greater understanding through the Spirit as we hide the word in our heart and let it dwell richly. The edification of tongues, at best, can only compliment what is written but has no power or authority to convert us, to transform and renew our minds, to quicken us and provide the resurrected power of and endless life (Heb 7:16, Acts 4:33) till Christ be formed in us (Gal 4:19). The greatest asset that tongues has ever contributed to the church is as a sign to unbelievers that are having difficulty believing and it started with the Jews. The greatest liability of this gift is the division and strife it has caused within the church.

Why should I or any believer desire a gift that has no power or authority to transform our life or the life of others. For many that have the gift of tongues or desire it, they are desiring a gift to replace faith that comes from hearing the word of God being preached and taught by a gifted pastor-teacher (Rom 10:17, Eph 4:13). Many that do use this gift edify themselves as a confirmation of approval, to feel spiritual and to appear spiritual to others and to replace the pastor-teacher that has been given to the church as a gift (Eph 4:7-14).

Many of them never become established in a local church assembly that is a teaching ministry, because they don't feel comfortable having their gift be in subjection to the pastor-teacher of the church and the word of God that is taught. They get uncomfortable subjecting their gift to the light of God's word. They should be desiring to be in the midst of the body of Christ where all the fullness of God dwells and where Christ is the head (Eph 1:22,23; 3:18,19). They should be desiring to hear the word of God being preached and taught so that the Holy Spirit can take that word and go into all the world with it and teach it abroad through the love of God (Mt 28:19, Rom 5:5).
 
Some of you are reading what I have posted and the Spirit of God is witnessing the truth in you and you are saying nothing to support it as a witness of the truth (Jn 5:33, 8:37, Rom 9:1, 1Jn 5:6, Acts 1:8). Whether you want to identify with me personally or not should not be an issue. You should stand for the truth in all things pertaining to God and His words of righteousness (Ps 119:172, Is 45:23, Heb 5:13). Some of you are still wishy-washy and double-minded about this subject and you don't want to get involved because you think it is being argumentative. Where is your backbone in this matter? If you have learned something then speak the truth in love and magnify God with it.

Some of you have been a Christian for years and you know the truth and say nothing or have said something in the past and think it is enough. It that how you believe concerning the gospel of Christ, you've spoken and testified in the past and it's enough and there is no need any longer? When you try to persuade and convince someone with the gospel of God's dear Son, do you quit and give up because you think it argumentative (Acts 18:28, 19:8, 28:23)? We don't argue the gospel, we convince men and preach the gospel and every word of it to every creature, when it is in season or out of season, when it is convenient or inconvenient we sow the seed, we water the seed and bear the fruit as God gives the increase (2Tim 4:2). Why do believers charge others with being argumentative when they themselves are living in complacency? We are to have our tongue as a pen of a ready-writer and to speak plainly (Ps 45:1, Is 32:4) and we are to publish the word (Deut 32:1-4, Acts 13:49).

Prov 22:17-21 'Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips. That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee. Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee'?
 
MahogonySnail said:
To answer your questions, yes I'm aware of some who claim they can speak in tongues only at certain times and no other or can't no longer. I don't think that is biblical. I think BLU gave such an example, about how he started to speak in tongues and then couldnt anymore or something. So no, not everyone who claims to have it has it. Just as with anything. But I believe when God gives a gift, He does not take it away
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When we believed upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we were given by grace through God's salvation a gift of perfect righteousness (Rom 5:17,18) and a gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) through the Holy Spirit. I will not accuse you of being hypocritical as you have of me, but I will extend to you the benefit that you know what you believe and in whom you believe. I hope that you have also been converted to the immutability of God's justice that was accomplished on the cross by His Son, Jesus Christ. These gifts were made possible to sinners by the work of God, which is to believe upon His Son whom He sent (Jn 6:29). These gifts are immutable (unchanging & irrevocable) in the essence of God's divine nature that they were promised (2Pt 1:4), and in the unmerited favour of being given according to grace through faith by the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:8,9, Rom 5:17,18, 6:23). Do you believe when God gives these gifts, which will never cease or pass away, that He will not take them away from those that have received them of Him?
 
BLC said:
Some of you are reading what I have posted and the Spirit of God is witnessing the truth in you and you are saying nothing to support it as a witness of the truth (Jn 5:33, 8:37, Rom 9:1, 1Jn 5:6, Acts 1:8). Whether you want to identify with me personally or not should not be an issue. You should stand for the truth in all things pertaining to God and His words of righteousness (Ps 119:172, Is 45:23, Heb 5:13). Some of you are still wishy-washy and double-minded about this subject and you don't want to get involved because you think it is being argumentative. Where is your backbone in this matter? If you have learned something then speak the truth in love and magnify God with it.

Some of you have been a Christian for years and you know the truth and say nothing or have said something in the past and think it is enough. It that how you believe concerning the gospel of Christ, you've spoken and testified in the past and it's enough and there is no need any longer? When you try to persuade and convince someone with the gospel of God's dear Son, do you quit and give up because you think it argumentative (Acts 18:28, 19:8, 28:23)? We don't argue the gospel, we convince men and preach the gospel and every word of it to every creature, when it is in season or out of season, when it is convenient or inconvenient we sow the seed, we water the seed and bear the fruit as God gives the increase (2Tim 4:2). Why do believers charge others with being argumentative when they themselves are living in complacency? We are to have our tongue as a pen of a ready-writer and to speak plainly (Ps 45:1, Is 32:4) and we are to publish the word (Deut 32:1-4, Acts 13:49).

Prov 22:17-21 'Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips. That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee. Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee'?
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Joe 2:28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:Joe 2:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.Joe 2:30And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.Joe 2:31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.Joe 2:32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
 
Tongues do not and can not replace or substitute the preaching and teaching of God's word and the gospel of Christ. If the gift of tongues is exercised without an interpretation that is according to the scriptures, it provides no true edification for the church. If it has an interpretation according to the scriptures, in word or prophecy, it becomes unnecessary because the scriptures and prophecy can be taught by those that are given as a gift to the church. Any prophecy given of a future event that has not taken place, has no edification or authority until it comes to past.
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I don't recall anyone saying tongues replaced the Word???? But you sure do have a lot of man-made rules and traditions you stick by about spiritual gifts which I assume you have never experienced for yourself.


If the prophecy was according to what the written word has already testified such as, 'Christ is coming back in the clouds of the air, so get ready, He will be coming soon and His reward is with Him', we can read and study that in the scriptures and have a greater understanding through the Spirit as we hide the word in our heart and let it dwell richly. The edification of tongues, at best, can only compliment what is written but has no power or authority to convert us, to transform and renew our minds, to quicken us and provide the resurrected power of and endless life (Heb 7:16, Acts 4:33) till Christ be formed in us (Gal 4:19). The greatest asset that tongues has ever contributed to the church is as a sign to unbelievers that are having difficulty believing and it started with the Jews. The greatest liability of this gift is the division and strife it has caused within the church.
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Yes and the most division and strife is caused by fellows such as yourself. Given you have never spoken in tongues yourself, you simply have no clue as to whether it edifies or not. Us tongue-speakers don't speak in tongues because it is a bore and painful. Try it sometime.



Why should I or any believer desire a gift that has no power or authority to transform our life or the life of others. For many that have the gift of tongues or desire it, they are desiring a gift to replace faith that comes from hearing the word of God being preached and taught by a gifted pastor-teacher (Rom 10:17, Eph 4:13). Many that do use this gift edify themselves as a confirmation of approval, to feel spiritual and to appear spiritual to others and to replace the pastor-teacher that has been given to the church as a gift (Eph 4:7-14).
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Here you show your ignorance of the spiritual gifts and the work of the Spirit which God gave us. You are basically saying they are not needed. Well that's a sure sign of spiritual pride and self-reliance to say you don't need God's Spirit.




Many of them never become established in a local church assembly that is a teaching ministry, because they don't feel comfortable having their gift be in subjection to the pastor-teacher of the church and the word of God that is taught.
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No it's because arrogant and ignorant fellows such as yourself are prevalent in such local assemblies, and so are the church "leadership" which rule over God's flock like an authoritarian dictator not like the example of Christ.



They get uncomfortable subjecting their gift to the light of God's word. They should be desiring to be in the midst of the body of Christ where all the fullness of God dwells and where Christ is the head (Eph 1:22,23; 3:18,19). They should be desiring to hear the word of God being preached and taught so that the Holy Spirit can take that word and go into all the world with it and teach it abroad through the love of God (Mt 28:19, Rom 5:5).
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As if you'd truly know?
 
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When we believed upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we were given by grace through God's salvation a gift of perfect righteousness (Rom 5:17,18) and a gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) through the Holy Spirit. I will not accuse you of being hypocritical as you have of me, but I will extend to you the benefit that you know what you believe and in whom you believe. I hope that you have also been converted to the immutability of God's justice that was accomplished on the cross by His Son, Jesus Christ. These gifts were made possible to sinners by the work of God, which is to believe upon His Son whom He sent (Jn 6:29). These gifts are immutable (unchanging & irrevocable) in the essence of God's divine nature that they were promised (2Pt 1:4), and in the unmerited favour of being given according to grace through faith by the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:8,9, Rom 5:17,18, 6:23). Do you believe when God gives these gifts, which will never cease or pass away, that He will not take them away from those that have received them of Him?
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Whilst I stated that God will not take away a gift, I believe that humans can. I do believe that us humans have the ability to reject, quench, and ignore , gifts which God has given us. As an example, look at the way you and many other christians reject and ignore the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Why can't humans reject the salvation which God has given them as well? In that respect, my views are entirely consistent with one another re: gifts.
 
MahoganySnail and those that have the gift of tongues,

For the edification of the body and for those that do not speak in tongues, why don't you explain (1Cor 14:2). This verse seems to be speaking about tongues as a prayer language to God. Unbound, if you are still out there and want to comment, please do or if not send me an email with your comment. I will keep it confidential because I know how to. Believers should learn how to keep confidences, because when you break a confidence people get hurt, others think evil and trust goes out the window. There is no love or edification in breaking confidences.

Here's the verse:

'For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries'.KJV

'For anyone who speaks in a tonguedoes not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit'. NIV

'For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding]'. Amplified

What I would like to know is what those secret truths and hidden things that you utter as mysteries really are. What are they specifically and why are they not obvious to our understanding and perhaps yours as well?
 
Exactly right re: 1 Cor 14:2. Although 'prayer language' is so cliche. If you are talking to God I guess that is prayer, and if you are talking in another language I guess that is a language, so you get "prayer language".

By the way , I don't buy into the pentecostal ideas of it being some secret language so that the devil can't understand you. If only God can understand what you say, then I guess what they say about the devil not understanding you is right. It's just that I dont think God gave the gift of tonges so you can pray without being understood by the devil, thats silly.

Let's consider what the mysteries are. Firstly, let's draw from the insight of some past noted baptist/presbyterian theologians:


Gill commentary says:

howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries; though under the influence and by the extraordinary gift of the Spirit he has, and to his own Spirit and understanding, and with great affection and devotion within himself, he speaks of the deep things of God, and the mysteries of his grace, the most glorious truths of the Gospel, yet the meaning of his voice and words not being known, he is a barbarian to them that hear him; and though what he delivers are truths of the greatest importance, they are a mere jargon to others, being unintelligible.

Barnes commentary says:

He speaketh mysteries - For the meaning of the word "mystery," see Note, 1Co_2:7. The word here seems to be synonymous with sublime and elevated truth; truth that was not before known, and that might be of the utmost importance.



So according to these men, by the use of the word 'mystery', it appears what Paul is saying is something more than merely not being able to understand what is being said. The content of the tongues must be something of value, elevated truth, the deep things of God - which I guess is why with interpretation it has great value to the edification of the church AND why tongues cannot be thought of as useless or irrelevant just because we have the bible.

It is a myth that the spiritual gifts were needed at the time 1 Corinthians was written because they did not have a bible. The fact is, they did have scripture, they circulated the writings of the apostles amongst the churches. They also had the old testament. For goodness's sake, don't you realise that 1 Corinthians itself is the bible and they obviously had access to it??Are we so stupid to think just because they didnt have a completely bound KJV that the early church were somehow lacking?

They had Scripture, they had personal accounts and witnesses of Jesus's resurrection. They had the presence of the apostles themselves!!! Yet they also needed the spiritual gifts and did not reject them!! Yet today, even though we have less than the early church had, we reject the gifts just because we have a bible , and that is completely pointless and stupid.


"Who needs the gifts when you can just read the bible?", someone will say.
Well there's a few reasons why. Firstly, just reading the bible won't give you the deep things of God, as the apostle Paul had, exceedingly great revelations. He didn't get that by reading the old testament and consulting his favorite theologian. He got that by the Spirit speaking to and through him.

Secondly, when you just read the bible, you decide what you read. Perhaps you want to read John but God wants to speak a word from Psalms in and through you?

Thirdly, use of the gifts shows reliance upon the Holy Spirit. God did not intend us to be just reading the bible without any experience or fellowship with the Spirit.
 
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It is a myth that the spiritual gifts were needed at the time 1 Corinthians was written because they did not have a bible. The fact is, they did have scripture, they circulated the writings of the apostles amongst the churches. They also had the old testament. For goodness's sake, don't you realise that 1 Corinthians itself is the bible and they obviously had access to it??Are we so stupid to think just because they didnt have a completely bound KJV that the early church were somehow lacking?

They had Scripture, they had personal accounts and witnesses of Jesus's resurrection. They had the presence of the apostles themselves!!! Yet they also needed the spiritual gifts and did not reject them!! Yet today, even though we have less than the early church had, we reject the gifts just because we have a bible , and that is completely pointless and stupid.


"Who needs the gifts when you can just read the bible?", someone will say.
Well there's a few reasons why. Firstly, just reading the bible won't give you the deep things of God, as the apostle Paul had, exceedingly great revelations. He didn't get that by reading the old testament and consulting his favorite theologian. He got that by the Spirit speaking to and through him.

Secondly, when you just read the bible, you decide what you read. Perhaps you want to read John but God wants to speak a word from Psalms in and through you?

Thirdly, use of the gifts shows reliance upon the Holy Spirit. God did not intend us to be just reading the bible without any experience or fellowship with the Spirit. [/quote]

You make a grave error in not distinguishing between ''sign gifts'' and ''service gifts''. Everytime God sends a messenger to speak to the large group of the covenant people in Scripture there is always the supernatural to accompanie the messages as a sign of authority (in addition to the content to compare to previous revelation). All charismatic theology sense the 1600's has not had the quality nor quantity of the ministries of Moses, Ellijah, Jesus, the APostles, etc... because it is false. The Apostles had the authority to heal anyone when they wanted in Jesus' name. These were gifts given to them by the Holy Spirit. If anyone of you claims to have this gift go to the Hospital as they apostles went to teh Temple and heal persons with witnesses. For those who claim to speak in tongues speak as in Acts 2 to those who come from different nations and never learned your native tongue and hear the sermon of one person in a multi-national context and let everyone understand without need of translation. God has granted gifts to the church for service and the edification of it after the Bible was finished. But lets be honest here: it is a very arrogant statement to say that over 99 percent of professing CHristians in all of history (who have maintained that the sign gifts have ceased) are wrong and just a tiny minority are right when there theological predessors were all heretics even by most liberal standards.
 
jgrig,

Fristly, we shouldnt be mistaken to think that the apostles healed "whoever they wanted". That is fallacy. It was always and always is, as God wills. They were subject to the authority of God as are we.

Secondly, I also assume you have never used either a sign or a service gift in your life, nor healed anyone. Which means you speak either from hearsay or head knowledge not experience. So it's a case of " preacher, preach to thyself". Once you take the leap of faith, jump in the river and swim, you'll be able to know more accurately what you are talking about.

Thirdly, it is quite evident to me that your issue with these things is not fault with sound biblical exegesis, but your own skepticism and doubt. According to D. Carson, whom you will recall you recommended to us in an earlier post, the bible does not teach that the sign gifts have ceased. The book I refer to is Showing the Spirit: A Theological Exposition of 1 Corinthians, 12-14 by D. Carson.
So there is some contradiction there in your own mind and beliefs, obviously, or perhaps you had not thoroughly examined what D. Carson teaches. Although Carson is critical of aspects of the gifts and beliefs in the pentecostal movements, there is no scriptural basis for "the gifts have ceased".

" it is a very arrogant statement to say that over 99 percent of professing CHristians in all of history (who have maintained that the sign gifts have ceased) are "

It's not arrogance, if it's truth. The "majority is right argument" doesn't always work. For example, Catholics are and always have been in the majority but I bet you don't apply that same argument of "majority is right" to your own beliefs where catholicism is concerned ;).

I think it's generally accepted that sign gifts have decreased since the early ages. But the issue is why? I know it's not because the bible says so. I really think it's because of skeptics and doubters such as yourself and the cumulative effect of that over the past few hundred years. Those who have bothered to seek the things of the Spirit have not found lack. If you truly listened to the Spirit you would not be so skeptical and doubtful. Afterall, the Spirit is the Spirit of faith!! Even before I grew interested in the spiritual gifts , I was never a doubter, I did not doubt the work of the Spirit for today, or be critical of it.
 
]jgrig,

Fristly, we shouldnt be mistaken to think that the apostles healed "whoever they wanted". That is fallacy. It was always and always is, as God wills. They were subject to the authority of God as are we.
God's will as revealed to the APostles was that they had the power to heal anyone they laid their hand on. This was an unique gift to the Apostles and the early church. Now if you want to make an argument for ''gifts of healing'' in that a normal person through prayer and the laying on of the hands of the elders may receive supernatural healing that I have no problem accepting as biblical but the office of Apostle and the ability to be a faith Healer have ceased as the Apostleship shipped because special infalible revelation has ceased until the second coming or heaven.
Secondly, I also assume you have never used either a sign or a service gift in your life, nor healed anyone. Which means you speak either from hearsay or head knowledge not experience. So it's a case of " preacher, preach to thyself". Once you take the leap of faith, jump in the river and swim, you'll be able to know more accurately what you are talking about.
As for service gifts, I do have the gift of being called to be a pastor/teacher. As for supernatural healing no I have never preformed a miracle but I have seen genuine miracles and none of them happened at Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer conferences. I have seen persons with legs lost receive new one supernaturally after years of prayer. As for tongues, I am more or less bilingual. If the gifts of tongues were in opperation then there were not be a need to improve my french to better minister to the people of God in QUébec... it would be easier though!

Thirdly, it is quite evident to me that your issue with these things is not fault with sound biblical exegesis, but your own skepticism and doubt. According to D. Carson, whom you will recall you recommended to us in an earlier post, the bible does not teach that the sign gifts have ceased. The book I refer to is Showing the Spirit: A Theological Exposition of 1 Corinthians, 12-14 by D. Carson.
So there is some contradiction there in your own mind and beliefs, obviously, or perhaps you had not thoroughly examined what D. Carson teaches. Although Carson is critical of aspects of the gifts and beliefs in the pentecostal movements, there is no scriptural basis for "the gifts have ceased".
I am well aware of D. Carson's conclusions in his book however I disagree but with the posistion put forward in that book I do believe a church can live together in harmony when the emphesis is put onto a Word and Sacrament ministry. That is the pragmatic ideal to how to live in the context of the local Church. To all those who claim to have the gift of healing I simply say go to the hospital and Heal persons by the hundreds like in the days of Jesus and the APostles if you want credibility.

" it is a very arrogant statement to say that over 99 percent of professing CHristians in all of history (who have maintained that the sign gifts have ceased) are "

It's not arrogance, if it's truth. The "majority is right argument" doesn't always work. For example, Catholics are and always have been in the majority but I bet you don't apply that same argument of "majority is right" to your own beliefs where catholicism is concerned ;).
I would of course deny the statement that truth is determined by numbers but it is USUALLY a strong a good indicator and the reasons ought to be looked at very hard. For example, before the Reformation there were many writttings that complained about indulgences, the Vatican, and said many things that were essentially SOLA FIDE in essence. The idea of Covenant Theology can be traced all the way the back to the 2nd Century Fathers including traces of the idea of a Covenant of Works. A great deal of work has been done showing the presence of sola fide in its elementary form in the Patristics. So while the truth may be lost in the mainstream for a bit of Time God is faithful and will bring it back in due time. Besides historical protestants, historic, catholics (who maintain that revelation is continued only through the apostleship of the bishop of Rome), and the Orthodox, Baptists, etc... have all historically denied the continuation of the sign gifts. In fact throughout Church history it has only been fringe anti-trinitarias who have lived in small groups that have said they are the only true church... and now continue to exist in internet chatrooms and low quality mp3 podcasts. Now, it is not fair to say all non-cessationanists are like that and today for the first first time in Church history they make a valluable contribuation to all sorts of scholarship! Piper, Grudem, Carson, Lloyd-Jones, Etc.. and the greats like that are to be read but on this one I do think they are wrong.

I think it's generally accepted that sign gifts have decreased since the early ages. But the issue is why? I know it's not because the bible says so. I really think it's because of skeptics and doubters such as yourself and the cumulative effect of that over the past few hundred years. Those who have bothered to seek the things of the Spirit have not found lack. If you truly listened to the Spirit you would not be so skeptical and doubtful. Afterall, the Spirit is the Spirit of faith!! Even before I grew interested in the spiritual gifts , I was never a doubter, I did not doubt the work of the Spirit for today, or be critical of it
I would never say the Spirit doesn't work in awesome and supernatural ways today but as opposed to impressive miracles we have the Word and Sacrament Ministry of the Church and Completed Bible! We have access 24/7 in almost every language around the globe to the words God inspired through His apostles and prophets! Think about if The 1st Century church in Corinth had this how much things would have been different! Or imagine you likved with the Israelites and you had a copy of the Gospel of John!!! Ohh that Gospel is so much better than Manna for it gives you the true Bread of life Jesus Christ.


My posistion is not a hard Warfieldian cessationism rather more of a sympathetique and skeptical (more so on prophecy than babbling tongues... because Tongues exegetically I do not see how you can read that in greek and not come to the conclusion that it is a reference to real languages. And yes I do have some academic greek training and not to use it to but when tongues is used for languages every time and there is one time where it could mean something else its a good idea to look at the other times) when I hear prophecies especially when its a end of times thing or something will happen in the future or they are just repeating Bible verses to a situation (I call that good exposition of a Bible verse not Prophecy!) I am going to ignore it given its all mostly just rubbish. Now when I hear a prophecy something like '' this is God's will for your life'' from maybe a charismatic friend I will not just throw it out rather I will write it down in my journal and start going to scripture and see if it fits. Then I will check my motivation. Then I will talk about the idea (not the fact that it came from a prophecy) with other more godly Christian borthers and sisters. Then I will see if its pragmaticaly possible within the domains of providence God has put me into for me to do and if all that ligns up then I could VERY EASILY see myself acting on it and doing it. What I oppose 100% is a sort of anti-intellectualism, feeling based christianity that is so prevelant in North America (Schildemacher's influence sadly and a bit barthian also) that looses the asciety of God in the name of being His buddy and changes the preaching of the Word and the right use of the sacraments for self-help tips and moralism. I also strongly oppose an overly intellectuallisatoin of the Christian Faith. The Bible clearly teaches both and it is wrong to say we must decide both. We are to have feelings with God in worship but these feelings but be informed with Scripture. These intellectual church do not commit themselves to Biblical expository preaching rather they preach like its a technical commentary and the Pastor has no clue about real life. These exist but no where compare in number to the first group previously condmened and now a days it is important to bring the balance a bit over to the other side to try to maintain the right balance. These churches don't care about personal conversion and care only about external morality and are driven by the law and not the gospel.
When the Christian faith looses all sense of objectivity and it is reduced to ''accepting Jesus'' or ''follower of Jesus'' you loose the first things (1 cor. 15) of the objective truths needed to believe in order to be saved. There is no salvation for those who deny the bodily resserection of Christ. There is no salvation for those who deny the Incarnation of the Son. There can be no justification before a Holy God if you first do not acknowledge that in Adam ALL MAN FELL (romans 5- hint... pelegians). That by nature we are sinners allienated from God and not born children of God but God has in his mercy rescued us through the Son. But unless the truths of the Gospel are subjuctively appropiated BY FAITH ALONE THROUGH GRACE ALONE BY CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE. And in Sanctification the affections must be moved to look to Christ as the author and perfector of this same faith that justifies us so that the will will be enabled to love righteousness more than its natural inclination to sin over the period of time. But when persons start to make decisions based on supposed revelations where God has not sought to speak of in Scripture I fear greatly because that is how the worst things in the world start to happen.
 
MahogonySnail said:
jgrig,

Fristly, we shouldnt be mistaken to think that the apostles healed "whoever they wanted". That is fallacy. It was always and alested in the spiritual gifts , I was never a doubter, I did not doubt the work of the Spirit for today, or be critical of it.
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response above in red
 
God's will as revealed to the APostles was that they had the power to heal anyone they laid their hand on. This was an unique gift to the Apostles and the early church. Now if you want to make an argument for ''gifts of healing'' in that a normal person through prayer and the laying on of the hands of the elders may receive supernatural healing that I have no problem accepting as biblical but the office of Apostle and the ability to be a faith Healer have ceased as the Apostleship shipped because special infalible revelation has ceased until the second coming or heaven
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The office of Apostle has not ceased - it has more or less changed purpose and function. Apostles are simply "sent ones", and there were more apostles in the early church than the 13 , (12 plus Paul) we are most familiar with. We will still find people today with the gift of apostleship but we may know them as missionaries or church-planters. Of course we can't expect them to be doing the great things some of the 12 apostles did, like Peter and Paul, yet they are apostles nonetheless. In Catholicsm, the Pope is regarded as an apostle.

Faith healing I would have to say is one of the things that has not ceased. The function of faith for healing and for anything really, has never ceased. Gifts of healing on the other hand, are only as God wills and as God imparts. There is a difference between healing by the prayer of faith, which all believers can do, and healing by a God-given gift, which is as God gives.

As for service gifts, I do have the gift of being called to be a pastor/teacher. As for supernatural healing no I have never preformed a miracle but I have seen genuine miracles and none of them happened at Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer conferences. I have seen persons with legs lost receive new one supernaturally after years of prayer. As for tongues, I am more or less bilingual. If the gifts of tongues were in opperation then there were not be a need to improve my french to better minister to the people of God in QUébec... it would be easier though!
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I have seen miracles at both Benny Hinn conferences and other places. I'm not sure you understand the limitations of tongues either by your comments about ministrying to the people in Quebec.

I am well aware of D. Carson's conclusions in his book however I disagree but with the posistion put forward in that book I do believe a church can live together in harmony when the emphesis is put onto a Word and Sacrament ministry. That is the pragmatic ideal to how to live in the context of the local Church. To all those who claim to have the gift of healing I simply say go to the hospital and Heal persons by the hundreds like in the days of Jesus and the APostles if you want credibility.
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You said yourself it took years of prayer to see someone's legs heal. So why do you think we can just go to hospitals and heal people by the hundreds instantly? Now I could easily say, like many who do, "That's not biblical, God heals instantly". But I do know of various priests and pastors who do hospital visits, pray and see people healed instantly. And there's a number of lay people which do that as well. So I'm not sure what your problem is.


I would of course deny the statement that truth is determined by numbers but it is USUALLY a strong a good indicator and the reasons ought to be looked at very hard. For example, before the Reformation there were many writttings that complained about indulgences, the Vatican, and said many things that were essentially SOLA FIDE in essence. The idea of Covenant Theology can be traced all the way the back to the 2nd Century Fathers including traces of the idea of a Covenant of Works. A great deal of work has been done showing the presence of sola fide in its elementary form in the Patristics. So while the truth may be lost in the mainstream for a bit of Time God is faithful and will bring it back in due time. Besides historical protestants, historic, catholics (who maintain that revelation is continued only through the apostleship of the bishop of Rome), and the Orthodox, Baptists, etc... have all historically denied the continuation of the sign gifts. In fact throughout Church history it has only been fringe anti-trinitarias who have lived in small groups that have said they are the only true church... and now continue to exist in internet chatrooms and low quality mp3 podcasts. Now, it is not fair to say all non-cessationanists are like that and today for the first first time in Church history they make a valluable contribuation to all sorts of scholarship! Piper, Grudem, Carson, Lloyd-Jones, Etc.. and the greats like that are to be read but on this one I do think they are wrong.
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The spiritual gifts can be found right back to Scripture itself. I believe that historical denial by the "official" positions in those denominations, is a result of ignorance and traditions not sound biblical exegesis or sola scriptura. I'm not sure why you would appeal to the historical traditions of the catholic and orthodox churches on this issue when I'm sure that your beliefs, as a protestant, on the core issues of the faith, would be so different. I personally believe that it was easier for the catholic church to deny the existance of certain gifts which were at most threat or perhaps abused by heretics than rely upon sola scriptura which does not say the gifts will or have ceased. Then again, the whole arguments against the catholic church re: the Gospel and saved by grace through faith, are equally applied to the gifts. If the catholics corrupted the true Gospel, who is to claim they had it right when it came to spiritual gifts? But today there are charismatic Catholics where the gifts are embraced and I'm not sure if the catholics position on this issue has changed, I think it has. I've been to charismatic catholic services before, I think I prefer it to traditional catholic.

I would never say the Spirit doesn't work in awesome and supernatural ways today but as opposed to impressive miracles we have the Word and Sacrament Ministry of the Church and Completed Bible!
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Opposed? You are really stating that the Scripture is opposed to God's supernatural power. I'm not sure how? Don't you understand that they do not oppose, but complement one another? You could have the most perfect Word and inspired teaching around, but if you don't have the Spirit accompanying then it is less effective.

It seems you believe this fallacy that the early church was somehow deficient. The early church had a completed old testament scripture which was good enough for Jesus and for the apostles, and I'm sure they had Word and Sacrament ministry as well whatever that means.

Can you tell me what an "unimpressive miracle" is? Sounds like an oxymoron to me lol.
But I think you must live in a box or something, because God still does impressive miracles today. I would think by definition, any miracle is impressive.


We have access 24/7 in almost every language around the globe to the words God inspired through His apostles and prophets! Think about if The 1st Century church in Corinth had this how much things would have been different! Or imagine you likved with the Israelites and you had a copy of the Gospel of John!!! Ohh that Gospel is so much better than Manna for it gives you the true Bread of life Jesus Christ
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Again you're trying to argue that the Word is somehow opposed to God's spiritual gifts. . Do you believe that just because we have the bible we dont need to evangelise, we don't need the Spirit? Word and Spirit go together, and where the Spirit is there will be gifts. Scripture says:

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Scripture does not say that "a perfect rendition of the scripture in King James english is given to every man to profilt withal". Scripture no where discounts the supernatural function and purpose of the Spirit due to the production of ANY sacred writing. Imagine if Jesus and the apostles took that same attitude to their ministry as you do? What if Jesus and the apostles had said "we have a perfect completed old testament, we have no need for these other supernatural things anymore".


You said:

We have access 24/7 in almost every language around the globe to the words God inspired through His apostles and prophets!

I don't believe that's correct at all. 40% of the world are still unreached with the Gospel, and about 6000 of the worlds 6800 languages or so do not have a translation of the bible into their own language.

According to Bible League,

in Africa there are an estimated 200 million church members still waiting for their own copy of Scriptures. In Indonesia, there are approximately 2,400 people a day making commitments to Christ and about half of these new converts will not have access to a Bible.

There are at least 6,675 of the worlds 16,321 ethnic people groups have never heard the Gospel message. Some 2.6 billion people of the world’s 6.6 billion people have not had the opportunity to respond to the message of God’s Word.

About 80% of bibles published today are for the 9% of the world that speaks english. There are still 6000 or so languages that do not have the bible translated into their own language.

And from Gospel for Asia, if I remember these facts correctly,
a meagre 1 to 2 % of the Western church's resources go to overseas missions where the need is greatest. The majority of the western church's funds, 80 to 90% or so, are spent on itself.
 
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