Free will? really?

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#21
No matter what choice one makes, we are free to make them, and all have consequences, which just helps for us all to make better choices in the future, not out of no other choice, out of wisdom
1 Corinthians 10:23 You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#22
How can your will be 'free' if it is confined. I still hear most talking about freedom... but have you freedom? and feedom from what to what or are you totally 'free'? Ye I too believe we can make very real choices, choosing to do things everyday...but that doesn't make t a free choice just because I thought to do it

Now here is something to think about... are you free to do contrary to what you are?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#23
Because you are allowed todo something or not does not show '''FREE WILL' homewardbound...it still only shows choices!!!

No matter what choice one makes, we are free to make them, and all have consequences, which just helps for us all to make better choices in the future, not out of no other choice, out of wisdom
1 Corinthians 10:23 You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#24
How can your will be 'free' if it is confined. I still hear most talking about freedom... but have you freedom? and feedom from what to what or are you totally 'free'? Ye I too believe we can make very real choices, choosing to do things everyday...but that doesn't make t a free choice just because I thought to do it

Now here is something to think about... are you free to do contrary to what you are?
Take for instance a bird. Let's say you make a a cage for this bird the size of the earth and it is its own self-sustaining biosphere. Does that bird have absolute freedom within that biosphere? It is free to do as it wills within the confines of the sphere. It is free to do these things without restraints. Yes it will be bound, again, by physical laws of space and time, and other such types of natural laws, as well as spiritual laws.

The type of freewill you are talking about does not belong to us. If it did, we would be God, and we simply are not.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#25
How can your will be 'free' if it is confined. I still hear most talking about freedom... but have you freedom? and feedom from what to what or are you totally 'free'? Ye I too believe we can make very real choices, choosing to do things everyday...but that doesn't make t a free choice just because I thought to do it

Now here is something to think about... are you free to do contrary to what you are?
Am I free to do contrary to what I am? Hmmmm. . .let's see. . .Do you mean that since I am a human being. . .am I free to be something besides a human being? doesn't make any sense to me, but no, I am not free to be a dog because I was made a human being. . .why would I want to choose to be something else. I don't think fully understand what you are asking.

I am a born again believer. . .am I free to do contrary to that? Can I become an "unborn again believer"? Nope. I have the Spirit of God dwelling within me. . .am I free to do contrary to that. . .hmmmm. . .yep. . .I can walk by the Spirit or I can walk by the flesh. . . .
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#26
Hi peacefulbeliever,

I do not mean to be something other than human, rather who you are.


Am I free to do contrary to what I am? Hmmmm. . .let's see. . .Do you mean that since I am a human being. . .am I free to be something besides a human being? doesn't make any sense to me, but no, I am not free to be a dog because I was made a human being. . .why would I want to choose to be something else. I don't think fully understand what you are asking.

I am a born again believer. . .am I free to do contrary to that? Can I become an "unborn again believer"? Nope. I have the Spirit of God dwelling within me. . .am I free to do contrary to that. . .hmmmm. . .yep. . .I can walk by the Spirit or I can walk by the flesh. . . .
 
R

richie_2uk

Guest
#27
Yep, for all those who made comments regards to this thread. you chose your free will to answer. you didn't have to, but you chose to, because of your free will lol
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#28
Hi ForthAngel,

You are missing the point.

1. a bird does not equate to a human being in nature nor anything else except it was created by God and lives in the same time and space as us.

2. We as humans are not trapped on earth, we may be slaves to one power or the other.

3.If birds have natures/wills they would not do outside of that which they would not do..in an imaginary case or not.

And a last small thought..the birds will to leave the cage is not free is it? it is dependant on the cage keeper? bear that in mind when thinking about your own nature and will.

And more lastly, no one here has shown how scripturally you have free will, yes passages have ben put forth to show we can make choices... and I wholeheartedly agree :)








Take for instance a bird. Let's say you make a a cage for this bird the size of the earth and it is its own self-sustaining biosphere. Does that bird have absolute freedom within that biosphere? It is free to do as it wills within the confines of the sphere. It is free to do these things without restraints. Yes it will be bound, again, by physical laws of space and time, and other such types of natural laws, as well as spiritual laws.

The type of freewill you are talking about does not belong to us. If it did, we would be God, and we simply are not.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#29
I think the ability to choose would require first a will. Without an existent will, no choice can be made. As far as the birds, let's call them humans instead. And I disagree about being trapped on earth. Sure we can leave our comfy little cage, but how far can we really go? We can't go that far, nor do I think we ever will. There is a limitation and if we go too far past our cage, we can't survive. We can only go far enough to be able to fly back in time. You can view the cage keeper as God, and yes, we are limited by the Cage keeper's will, thus God's will will always override our own.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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#30
I haven't denied we have a will, of course we have one.. and praise God for it. I am just curious how those who say they have a free will come to that biblically.. bearing in mind that your will is tied to who you are! so are you really free to choose outside of who you really are?
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#31
I dunno how else to state my views on this. I see what you mean, but the type of will you are asking if we have is the type of will that would make us God, and again, we aren't God :p

We have free will within the confines of what God allows. We have freedom of will to do some things, but not all things. God is the only one who has that type of will.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,159
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#32
Hi ForthAngel,

I understand what you are saying and yes we can make wilful choices, however these choices are always tied to your nature, you won't make a choice that is not who you are..so there for its not a free will..

I think a good example is before you were saved... could you wilfully make a God honouring moral wilful choice... the bible says no you wouldn't. so we certainly have a will, but that will is tied to your nature..

Our natures are what influence and control our will... it also comes down to who actually is in control..us or God!

read Acts 2, who killed Jesus? did God plan it and purpose its every detail and did the men who actually do it think they done it from their own '''Free will'
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#33
I agree that God shapes our paths and even forcefully dictates what we do sometimes. Such an example of this being true would be Romans 9:15-26 Whether or not this means he controls every miniscule detail of our own will (if in fact it exists), I am not sure.

As far as willing outside of who we are, then no, we cannot. We are not manifold creations individually. We have one spirit, one consciousness, one mind, one body, and of course we can't deviate from this without divine interference such as the indwelling Spirit of God. That obviously raises a lot of question, such as are we really ever in control and is our will primarily an illusion.

I'm not sure if God created us as individual prototypes that were given the ability to learn and to be shaped, but if so, then who we are is dependent not just on how he created us, but the life he allowed us to be brought up in, the people we were around, how we were raised, and even that draws even more question such as, did God shape that path and that upbringing to shape us into the individual he wanted us to be? My answer to the latter would be yes. We are all known to him and placed where we are in life at the right time and place for his reasons alone to work for his ends.

The no will whatsoever argument has evidence in the bible, as does us having some type of freedom of will. I think they can co-exist with God still being in complete control. If God knows everything, he would be able to see infinite outcomes for whatever choice he allows us to make, therefore altering his plans for us (from the very beginning of time so it wasn't ever altered at all). I also know that God exists inside of the eternal and our timeline is not an issue for him. He can see from start to finish and rearrange past, history, and future (all from the very beginning of time therefore making it no change at all) without us every knowing anything had happened to dictate the outcome of our own present and future.

I don't think there will ever be a way to prove or disprove any freewill or lack of free will arguments - ever. I am a firm believer though (not for human pride reasons) that God does allow us freedom of will within His confines, and him being God can still determine and dictate an outcome that is acceptable to him and still remains within his own will.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#34
We don't have free will when comes to certain things, No free will to be born, No free will not to die, No free will who we will marry (it takes two), No free will to not to sleep..etc. etc. Thus we don't have a free will as God has a free will. But when it comes to life's choices we have a free will, what shall I eat, when I will sleep, who I don't want to marry, what car to buy, and I know the Calvinist don't like this, but a free will to choose whom you will serve, the Lord or your own desires. Like EG said, if you didn't have this, it would render love meaningless, and everything else as well.

I think here is an example of what you seek:
Genesis 4
[SUP]6 [/SUP]So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? [SUP]7[/SUP]If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

Therefore we should say we have "limited free will."
 
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DannyC

Guest
#35
What most people consider "free will" is the freedom to make choices. Each of us have the freedom of will to make choices according to the will of God or we can go outside of God's will and disobey. We are not on automatic pilot wherein we are forced to stay within the confines of God's will. . . we are not on automatic pilot and forced to have a relationship with God. God WANTS us to come to him, to FOLLOW him, to be in a RELATIONSHIP with him because we WANT to NOT because he has MADE us to.

Are there laws in which we do not have free will? . . .yes. For example: the physical law of gravity. . .if I jump off a building gravity will pull me no matter if I "will" it to or not! But in our relationship with God. . .we have the choice to obey and stay in fellowship with him or to disobey and have his protection removed from us. . .that is our choice.

To believe in Jesus Christ and have eternal life is a choice. To not believe in Jesus Christ and receive condemnation is a choice. . .Both choices that we are not MADE to choose but that we freely decide to choose.
Free will doesn't mean you can defy laws of nature. That example has no bearing on whether we have free will or not.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#36
Free willites create two saviors.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#37
another reformed hobby just to show without Gods grace wed be lost forever.
but freewillers already know that.:p
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#39
It does. Jesus + Me, because I "have to let jesus save me". It takes my action and his. The power of salvation rests with the chooser, doesn't it...
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#40
Sorry about your luck Hilter, God didn't choose you.