Free will? really?
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I'm not sure free will was an option from God? In God's Law which pointed out sin, God repeatedly says,....thou shall not.....thou shall not.....or, thou shall.... This doesn't leave much room for free will. I believe free will comes with the fallen, or with the nature of sin. The Apostle Paul explained this horrible thing at work in himself, and in the end he proclaimed it was no longer him who sinned but the nature of his flesh. Jesus, prayed and asked that if it were possible that this cup, (the Cross) would pass from Him, but never the less not My will by Thy will be done. The Word of God says that we cannot come unto God unless we are drawn! So it's hard for me to say where some things began and others end concerning free will, but i do not believe that it is as readily available as we believe it is. We do have the ability at times to choose and some, or most things are chosen for us. It seems like we are funneled into corners unbeknownst to us, then wham! We must choose!
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Yeah it is.
1. Did God force them against their will to go after Israel.... (but did not God decree they would..Yes he did)
And? this does not take away from free will. They still wanted to do it.
2. Did God use them, and there will, to go after Israel. (did not stop them) Yes he did which annuls your point number 1, he did not stop them because he had already warned what was going to happen and it did.... and yet we read in Isaiah 10, that because they did he was going to punish them///?
You just answered you own question. Why did he punish them? Because they WANTED to do it..
Again, if free will is taken away, there can be no accountability.
Can you answer how that is? where they totally free not to go to war against Israel... you see the dilemma eternal???? if you say they could then you are saying that God is not in control.
Not so. Again, If God did not will it. he would have stopped them. militarily or some other way. God was in complete control. He used their will to do his bidding
Yes they are. Because they did not do somethign they did not want to do. They wanted to do it, and God allowed it (did not prevent it from happening) because it was his will. If it was not his will, he would have stopped them from doing it somehow.. Or he would have protec ted Israel and made sure the assyrians were defeated.
so you are saying God is not in control.. The assyrians wanted to so God just allowed them then thought ohh wait a minute I can use these guys for my punishment? You know that's not what happened. If you read Isaiah it is God who sends Assyria... you seem a bit doubtful here eternal, ..How can gods will and human will be compatiple? and how could God punish the nation that he used as his rod of anger...
lol.. You seem to be trying your best not to understand.
They wanted to. God did not stop them. Thus he allwed them to do what he wanted to in the first place. Then he punished them for it.
either way, It was still a free will choice. are you sure about that..if God had already decreed it would happen are you saying that they might not have?
How did he decree it? By his foreknowledge? By his understanding what they wanted to do? Remember we are talking about God here. If Assyria had no desire to attack Israel. he would have used someone else. He would not have forced them to attack Israel against their will
Who killed him? People who wanted to. Why? because they did not know what they were doing. Read the text. they laughted at him and mocked him, they enjoyed it. They did exactly what they WILLED to do. Yes I know what the text says, it means that they do not know they are crucifying their Messiah..they know full well they are crucifying the man on the cross for they are standing there watching it... again, who willed it? was it a plan b, God realised that he might be able to use these guys, or did he know it all along.. If you read through the NT you can see that Jesus is well aware of what is going to happen?
Yes he is, Why? Because the father told him through the spirit. Because God knows what is going to hasppen before it happens. It does nto remove free will
Now. They did not know what they were doing, Like all people who sin.. As peter says in his first epistle. We sin in ignorance. Not knowing what you are doing does not mean you have ''free''will just because you may be ignorant does not negate the fact you still are functioning under your nature.
No, It proves your still acting of your own free will.. It does not mean even if you were not ignorant, You still would not have done what you KNEW was wrong. We do it all the time/.
1. Did God force them against their will to go after Israel.... (but did not God decree they would..Yes he did)
And? this does not take away from free will. They still wanted to do it.
2. Did God use them, and there will, to go after Israel. (did not stop them) Yes he did which annuls your point number 1, he did not stop them because he had already warned what was going to happen and it did.... and yet we read in Isaiah 10, that because they did he was going to punish them///?
You just answered you own question. Why did he punish them? Because they WANTED to do it..
Again, if free will is taken away, there can be no accountability.
Can you answer how that is? where they totally free not to go to war against Israel... you see the dilemma eternal???? if you say they could then you are saying that God is not in control.
Not so. Again, If God did not will it. he would have stopped them. militarily or some other way. God was in complete control. He used their will to do his bidding
Yes they are. Because they did not do somethign they did not want to do. They wanted to do it, and God allowed it (did not prevent it from happening) because it was his will. If it was not his will, he would have stopped them from doing it somehow.. Or he would have protec ted Israel and made sure the assyrians were defeated.
so you are saying God is not in control.. The assyrians wanted to so God just allowed them then thought ohh wait a minute I can use these guys for my punishment? You know that's not what happened. If you read Isaiah it is God who sends Assyria... you seem a bit doubtful here eternal, ..How can gods will and human will be compatiple? and how could God punish the nation that he used as his rod of anger...
lol.. You seem to be trying your best not to understand.
They wanted to. God did not stop them. Thus he allwed them to do what he wanted to in the first place. Then he punished them for it.
either way, It was still a free will choice. are you sure about that..if God had already decreed it would happen are you saying that they might not have?
How did he decree it? By his foreknowledge? By his understanding what they wanted to do? Remember we are talking about God here. If Assyria had no desire to attack Israel. he would have used someone else. He would not have forced them to attack Israel against their will
Who killed him? People who wanted to. Why? because they did not know what they were doing. Read the text. they laughted at him and mocked him, they enjoyed it. They did exactly what they WILLED to do. Yes I know what the text says, it means that they do not know they are crucifying their Messiah..they know full well they are crucifying the man on the cross for they are standing there watching it... again, who willed it? was it a plan b, God realised that he might be able to use these guys, or did he know it all along.. If you read through the NT you can see that Jesus is well aware of what is going to happen?
Yes he is, Why? Because the father told him through the spirit. Because God knows what is going to hasppen before it happens. It does nto remove free will
Now. They did not know what they were doing, Like all people who sin.. As peter says in his first epistle. We sin in ignorance. Not knowing what you are doing does not mean you have ''free''will just because you may be ignorant does not negate the fact you still are functioning under your nature.
No, It proves your still acting of your own free will.. It does not mean even if you were not ignorant, You still would not have done what you KNEW was wrong. We do it all the time/.
Gee, and I thought this thread was about FREE WILL-Y.
Make the distinction between the bondage of the unbelievers will and the believers obligation to God's Will.
Romans 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Make the distinction between the bondage of the unbelievers will and the believers obligation to God's Will.
Romans 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
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I think we should just call it free willy..
I think it shows that God sovereign will and mans are compatible.. that's a reformed view.. before being saved our will's are tied to our nature .. the technical term in reformed thought is free agency and it differs from free will.. look it up you might be surprised at what you find..
remember free willy!
I think it shows that God sovereign will and mans are compatible.. that's a reformed view.. before being saved our will's are tied to our nature .. the technical term in reformed thought is free agency and it differs from free will.. look it up you might be surprised at what you find..
remember free willy!
P
I hear you, my friend.
Then I see the verses in John 1:12-13, and John 6:35-47, and I see all the greetings in the epistles (and other places) saying we were predestined and chosen by God from the foundation of the world...
and I see God proclaiming His sovereignty all over the Bible.
I can't get to limited atonement (yet, anyway
) except that obviously although Christ died for all and His work is sufficient for all sin, not all are saved, so in that sense atonement is limited.This may be a failure on my part to believe what God has said in His Word...idk. I hope not.
My sister and I have had four hour phone conversations with open Bibles about this, and theologians with a whole lot more intelligence than I have gone round and round about it for centuries.
I guess I do believe God chose me, since I was dead and the dead and slaves don't make many choices for themselves.
The only way I could have heard the Gospel and responded to it would have to have been a work of grace to see, and the gift of faith to believe. Eph. 2 tells me that's God's work, not my own.
But I certainly don't mean this to be construed as arguing with you, a man for whom I have great respect.
Just saying what I see...thus far, anyway.
~ellie ♥
This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. BUT God raised him from the dead. . . . Acts 2
No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor. 2:7,8
Yes, God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge was to send a savior; a savoir was to shed his blood for the remission of the sin of mankind. But death could not hold him and he was raised from the dead to give us hope of eternal life therefore destroying death and the power of death. Through the death of Jesus Christ, we have remission of sin and have been given the gift of salvation. Now, can we accept that gift or can we reject that gift . . . or are we forced to take that gift? And if God FORCES us to take that gift, and we all MUST accept that gift, why even mention hell because we would all be saved?
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4
Of course, God wants all to be saved, that is his love shown for all mankind . . .that is God's desire. . . but will ALL men be saved? Only those who believe in Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father and those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead will be saved. Does it take action on my part to believe? Does that mean I had a part in my salvation. . .only to the end that I accepted the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor. 2:7,8
Yes, God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge was to send a savior; a savoir was to shed his blood for the remission of the sin of mankind. But death could not hold him and he was raised from the dead to give us hope of eternal life therefore destroying death and the power of death. Through the death of Jesus Christ, we have remission of sin and have been given the gift of salvation. Now, can we accept that gift or can we reject that gift . . . or are we forced to take that gift? And if God FORCES us to take that gift, and we all MUST accept that gift, why even mention hell because we would all be saved?
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4
Of course, God wants all to be saved, that is his love shown for all mankind . . .that is God's desire. . . but will ALL men be saved? Only those who believe in Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father and those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead will be saved. Does it take action on my part to believe? Does that mean I had a part in my salvation. . .only to the end that I accepted the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Hi peacefulbeliever,
I certainly agree that it was God's plan and purpose... But are you saying that he left it up to chance how Jesus was terribly killed and who would do it..was even Judas then just chance.
Regarding forcing anybody, we need to think carefully about this.... we are very happy to be in the pit of our sin..very happy indeed, and remember all that we as humans deserve is death.. for that is the wages of what we love to do... yet, by God's sheer grace he actually freely choses some to save..why I don't know but that is the mercy and awesomeness of it.
You may say that is unfair...but wait a minute, was it unfair for God to wipe out the earth with a flood, after all those people where just like us..loving and living in their sin.
I certainly agree that it was God's plan and purpose... But are you saying that he left it up to chance how Jesus was terribly killed and who would do it..was even Judas then just chance.
Regarding forcing anybody, we need to think carefully about this.... we are very happy to be in the pit of our sin..very happy indeed, and remember all that we as humans deserve is death.. for that is the wages of what we love to do... yet, by God's sheer grace he actually freely choses some to save..why I don't know but that is the mercy and awesomeness of it.
You may say that is unfair...but wait a minute, was it unfair for God to wipe out the earth with a flood, after all those people where just like us..loving and living in their sin.
Well the question is.. did God have a plan?
secondly we know that redeemer and we know already that the wages of sin is death..hence the substitute sacrifice in the OT.
So did God have a plan where this substitute would die but also be raised.. I would say yes.. if you say no then Jesus' death and resurrection was just a cosmic accident that worked out quite well.
secondly we know that redeemer and we know already that the wages of sin is death..hence the substitute sacrifice in the OT.
So did God have a plan where this substitute would die but also be raised.. I would say yes.. if you say no then Jesus' death and resurrection was just a cosmic accident that worked out quite well.
I hear you, my friend.
Then I see the verses in John 1:12-13, and John 6:35-47, and I see all the greetings in the epistles (and other places) saying we were predestined and chosen by God from the foundation of the world...
and I see God proclaiming His sovereignty all over the Bible.
I can't get to limited atonement (yet, anyway) except that obviously although Christ died for all and His work is sufficient for all sin, not all are saved, so in that sense atonement is limited.
This may be a failure on my part to believe what God has said in His Word...idk. I hope not.
My sister and I have had four hour phone conversations with open Bibles about this, and theologians with a whole lot more intelligence than I have gone round and round about it for centuries.
I guess I do believe God chose me, since I was dead and the dead and slaves don't make many choices for themselves.
The only way I could have heard the Gospel and responded to it would have to have been a work of grace to see, and the gift of faith to believe. Eph. 2 tells me that's God's work, not my own.
But I certainly don't mean this to be construed as arguing with you, a man for whom I have great respect.
Just saying what I see...thus far, anyway.
~ellie ♥
Then I see the verses in John 1:12-13, and John 6:35-47, and I see all the greetings in the epistles (and other places) saying we were predestined and chosen by God from the foundation of the world...
and I see God proclaiming His sovereignty all over the Bible.
I can't get to limited atonement (yet, anyway
) except that obviously although Christ died for all and His work is sufficient for all sin, not all are saved, so in that sense atonement is limited.This may be a failure on my part to believe what God has said in His Word...idk. I hope not.
My sister and I have had four hour phone conversations with open Bibles about this, and theologians with a whole lot more intelligence than I have gone round and round about it for centuries.
I guess I do believe God chose me, since I was dead and the dead and slaves don't make many choices for themselves.
The only way I could have heard the Gospel and responded to it would have to have been a work of grace to see, and the gift of faith to believe. Eph. 2 tells me that's God's work, not my own.
But I certainly don't mean this to be construed as arguing with you, a man for whom I have great respect.
Just saying what I see...thus far, anyway.
~ellie ♥
But I'd like to ask you this, do you believe you were saved before your conversion?
BTW, I believe in limited atonement too, but I think it limited not because God doesn't want sinners saved, it's limited because you have to believe upon/in Him who saves.
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