Free will? really?
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i dont believe the doctrine is biblical...id call it more philosophical.
beneficial? why? it only answers questions imposed onto scripture..not from scripture
Just because a word is used to describe a biblical truth may not be the best word, does not take away from the truth of scripture.. the Trinity may not be the best word, but it fits and we use it to describe the Truth of Scripture.
I still have not seen you back up what you think is not biblical abiding?
This is true, but that doesn't mean God is the causal agent behind which place you go. To say it is, I think doesn't reflect the character of God displayed in the Bible. Clearly Jesus tells us that YOU must believe. This is also not to say, that God doesn't have the foreknowledge of who will repent and be saved.
Hi Spiritoffire,
That's a very good question. A good example is the assyrians now they with their own will wanted to conquer Israel
and they did, yet God had wiled it would happen.. and if you read Isaiah 10, he holds them accountable...
we can go to Act 2 and 4,
Now read especially Acts 4:27-28 very carefully.
There are 4 groups of people here:
Herod (singular)
Pontius Pilate (singular)
Gentiles (plural)
the people (plural Jews)
Now using their own will or free agency, they met and conspired together (that's what the text says)
Yet we also read that it was God's 'power and 'will' do so beforehand... God's had willed that this would happen before it did.
their will's and God's will were compatible... how this works out no one really knows... but it is all through scripture.
If it was by the 4 groups 'free will' then your basically saying God was a bystander..and that it all worked out fine in the end.
Remember here we have 4 groups of different people using thir will...but God had already by power and will determine it would happen.
That's a very good question. A good example is the assyrians now they with their own will wanted to conquer Israel
and they did, yet God had wiled it would happen.. and if you read Isaiah 10, he holds them accountable...
we can go to Act 2 and 4,
Now read especially Acts 4:27-28 very carefully.
There are 4 groups of people here:
Herod (singular)
Pontius Pilate (singular)
Gentiles (plural)
the people (plural Jews)
Now using their own will or free agency, they met and conspired together (that's what the text says)
Yet we also read that it was God's 'power and 'will' do so beforehand... God's had willed that this would happen before it did.
their will's and God's will were compatible... how this works out no one really knows... but it is all through scripture.
If it was by the 4 groups 'free will' then your basically saying God was a bystander..and that it all worked out fine in the end.
Remember here we have 4 groups of different people using thir will...but God had already by power and will determine it would happen.
We have free choice (will) as to whether we believe God or not
[h=3]John 16[/h]New International Version (NIV)
16 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. [SUP]4 [/SUP]I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, [SUP]5 [/SUP]but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]about sin, because people do not believe in me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
John 9:36
“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”
John 9:38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep
John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
John 10:42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
John 11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11:27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
The list of believe or not believe in Christ is extensive, and is the only thing left to believe or not believe.
Free all have this free will choice to either believe or not believe, that is all that God left for us all
to Believe or not believe.
[h=3]John 16[/h]New International Version (NIV)
16 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. [SUP]4 [/SUP]I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, [SUP]5 [/SUP]but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]about sin, because people do not believe in me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
John 9:36
“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”
John 9:38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep
John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
John 10:42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
John 11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11:27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
The list of believe or not believe in Christ is extensive, and is the only thing left to believe or not believe.
Free all have this free will choice to either believe or not believe, that is all that God left for us all
to Believe or not believe.
So since I have made my choice, am I going to Heaven a Question to all, for when anyone else makes their final decision?
All that is left after the cross is to either believe in Christ as the Messiah and is the way through him to God the Father or not.
So the next ? is if you do believe, will you or are you accepted in the beloved?
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Look at all the epistles here, what do each say GRACE AND PEACE, So people believe, GOD JUST LOVE US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All that is left after the cross is to either believe in Christ as the Messiah and is the way through him to God the Father or not.
So the next ? is if you do believe, will you or are you accepted in the beloved?
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Look at all the epistles here, what do each say GRACE AND PEACE, So people believe, GOD JUST LOVE US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Romans 1:7
to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:6-8 (in Context) Romans 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations - 2 Corinthians 1:2 grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:1-3 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations - Galatians 1:3 grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Galatians 1:2-4 (in Context) Galatians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations - Ephesians 1:2 grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:1-3 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations - Colossians 1:2 to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:1-3 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations - 1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The only issue today is whether one believes in the Christ who died for us all in our place as sinners, and then rose for us all to bring us to God cleansed
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
So either believe or do not believe, free will to do this, all that is left for life or death, and we all have the knowledge of this to choose
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
So either believe or do not believe, free will to do this, all that is left for life or death, and we all have the knowledge of this to choose
It doesn't ! This is what the bible teaches James 4:13-16
13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
The teaching of freewill is nothing but man boasting and its evil !
13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
The teaching of freewill is nothing but man boasting and its evil !
The bible doesn't use the term "free will" or imply that people have it. In fact, stories such as Pharaoh not letting the Jews go free because "God hardened his heart" suggests that the opposite is true. Outside of this story, however, it *feels* like people have freedom of choice and so it is assumed that we do. Plus, it is useful for combating the non-believer's argument from The Problem of Evil.
homwardbound has offered some verses on the subject, but it's interesting that these verses usually don't include the phrase being debated here. I think this is a case of cherry-picking evidence.
The more we learn about the brain, the less it seems that free will really exists. Your choices can change if you suffer brain damage. People with Tourette's Syndrome, for example, say very inappropriate things despite not "willing" themselves to say them because the part of their brain that inhibits these ideas is broken. Phineas Gage was famous for surviving traumatic brain damage, but it altered his personality from charming to cruel to the point where his employers had to fire him. And there's the case of a subject known only as "Alex", a man who became interested in child pornography because of a tumor pressing against his brain... once the tumor was removed, his interest also dissipated (from Incognito, Eagleman 2012).
I don't think that Christians need the concept of free will to answer The Problem of Evil, but that is why the idea is defended so vigorously.
homwardbound has offered some verses on the subject, but it's interesting that these verses usually don't include the phrase being debated here. I think this is a case of cherry-picking evidence.
The more we learn about the brain, the less it seems that free will really exists. Your choices can change if you suffer brain damage. People with Tourette's Syndrome, for example, say very inappropriate things despite not "willing" themselves to say them because the part of their brain that inhibits these ideas is broken. Phineas Gage was famous for surviving traumatic brain damage, but it altered his personality from charming to cruel to the point where his employers had to fire him. And there's the case of a subject known only as "Alex", a man who became interested in child pornography because of a tumor pressing against his brain... once the tumor was removed, his interest also dissipated (from Incognito, Eagleman 2012).
I don't think that Christians need the concept of free will to answer The Problem of Evil, but that is why the idea is defended so vigorously.
I think there is confusion between how God originally designed man and women and the effect of sin on the nature after the Fall.
Once you think on that for a while, we see that no man 'freely' chooses God.. because we cannot choose outwith our nature..even God does not to anything outside his Holy Nature..
Once you think on that for a while, we see that no man 'freely' chooses God.. because we cannot choose outwith our nature..even God does not to anything outside his Holy Nature..