Free will? really?

[phil36]

Rom 1 :

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

It says they freely chose to suppress the truth. One can not supress the truth if they can not understand it.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

God has shown it to them. And it is clearly understood (not like some say and unable to be understood) Thus they are without excuse. If they can not understand and comprehend it all. THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and changed the glory of the incorruptible God

God did not change it. they did. By their will


[SUP]25 [/SUP]who exchanged the truth of God for the lie,

They exchanged the truth for a lie. God did not hide it from them, or make it so they could not understand

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,

They freely chose not to retain the knowledge of God. Again, God did not keep it from them

[SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death

Again they know full well. God did not hide it. If they can know this, they can seek truth. This spoke of every one of us at one time in our lives.. The ones who come to Christ are the ones who stop hiding the knowledge of God in sin, and turn to God for help!

Of course they know full well.. thats what the text says...and that's why ALL MEN STAND GUILTY.. and of course they supress the truth because as naturally sinful men we are quite happy to carry on that way... It takes something to change our nature..were the will is tied to respond to Jesus..to turn.. because as you know Pauls whole argument ifrom ! to 3 in Romans tells us..and finishes this line of argument with:

[h=3]No One Is Righteous[/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [SUP]10 [/SUP]As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] ruin and misery mark their ways,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and the way of peace they do not know.”[SUP][f][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[SUP][[/SUP]




The will is tied to your nature eternal...

 

[blueorchidjd]

Ooooh the devil is up and down this thread!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course they know full well.. thats what the text says...and that's why ALL MEN STAND GUILTY.. and of course they supress the truth because as naturally sinful men we are quite happy to carry on that way... It takes something to change our nature..were the will is tied to respond to Jesus..to turn.. because as you know Pauls whole argument ifrom ! to 3 in Romans tells us..and finishes this line of argument with:

Aww. but this is where the issue comes in. God does not ask us to turn. That is not the gospel. This is where we get into trouble. and fall into old romanism.

God asks us to admit our guilt and helplessness and seek and ask his forgiveness based on his son. Thats all.. We can't even begin to turn unto first we respond to the knowledge we have, and the conviction of the HS (sin righteousness and judgment) Until then. Your right, our nature is to sin.. But the rescue itself is not turning, it is humility and respondoing to the message of mercy.

No One Is Righteous

[SUP]9 [/SUP]What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [SUP]10 [/SUP]As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] ruin and misery mark their ways,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and the way of peace they do not know.”[SUP][f][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[SUP][[/SUP]




The will is tied to your nature eternal...

lol No this will is tied to knowledge, and what we trust as truth. Our truth or Gods truth.

we either supress the truth we KNOW is true. or we repent and humble ourselves and seek forgiveness.

THEN God heals us and changes us to a new creature..

the gospel is about how to be rescued. Not wanting to change.. We can't want this until we have first been born again, and then learn to grow in Christ. The salvation is an event, the change is a process..

 

[HEknowsme]

I always thought and believe that God gives us the right to choose between Good and Evil. This is an action, which we find throughout the scriptures . You can choose as even Joshua had said,
Choose Whom You will Serve Joshua 24:14-15
14"Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." 16The people answered and said, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;…

Even if you look into the Garden , you will see they ( Adam and Eve) had the concept whether to obey or disobey. Free Will.

I mean go step beyond , the angels in heaven have this as well. Some chose to rebel where as others chose to remain and love the Lord. He would rather we love and serve him out of Love than serve him out of fear. Free will to obey

scripture is direct this way
Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey ( to choose , RIGHT?)the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)
BUT , directly I've not found The WORDS "FREE WILL" AS it is an action in choice.

 

[phil36]

I think your first comment really answers my question eternal. (By the way he wants repentance..turn from)

Hers the actuall question

How can a man who does not seek God..and Paul has already told ..no human does.. how with their 'free' will.


I agree the gospel is part of God big rescue plan of all creation.. and I agree we WILL nit respond until born again (born from above..cf titus 3:5)

 

[Starcrash]

Do you think God is Merciful and Loving? If you have no free will to believe or not believe, to make this choice aware, knowingly How can God condemn righteously, when giving all the last and final chance to either believe or not.

Is not to believe or not a free will choice?
Only God can reveal this truth to those that choose to believe, and those that choose not to will know this truth stated here and have made there free will choice as to whether they believe God or not. And all consequences will be just. As God is just in all God does period.
I am so thankful for free will from God and God's goodness has led me to choose to trust God and asked to be in God's will, Giving up my self will and taking on the new will of God's Love to all and thus am free from this world's traps

As I said before, it *feels* like we have free will... but it's an illusion.

If you give a pet a choice between two bowls of food, it will choose one. "Choice" is not a reflection of free will, unless you believe that animals also have free will, but allowing that standard to apply to animals also means that animals have the same mechanism for free choice (a "mind" or "consciousness"). You're equivocating choice with free will.

If I give you a choice, such as deciding what to wear today, I don't know what you'll choose (because I'm not familiar with your wardrobe or dressing habits), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're exerting what you think is free will. For one thing, you can't wear items that aren't clothing (such as oatmeal or helium) nor can you wear clothes that you don't have access to. You probably also won't wear dirty clothes from your hamper, even though you could, because you have self-imposed limitations on your free will (and of course I'm just assuming you're an average American on this point). While you may think that this is an exercise of free will, your "will" is restricted in many ways that you've probably never even considered.

And if I had enough information about your wardrobe and your dressing habits, I could probably predict with certainty what you'll wear. The choices you make (such as clothing choices) are influenced heavily by your environment and upbringing. You probably dress a lot like your dad, and it's unlikely that you dress like the average African. You probably don't wear "women's" clothing. This daily choice, even though you may feel like it's all yours, has so little to do with your feeling of "choosing".

 

[phil36]

Ooooh the devil is up and down this thread!

Really blueorchidjd? That's a very bold statement to make... If I wanted to make an ill informed position I could very easlily say your post has the devil all over it.. just an opinion of course.

But I don't.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ooooh the devil is up and down this thread!

lol why is that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think your first comment really answers my question eternal. (By the way he wants repentance..turn from)

Hers the actuall question

How can a man who does not seek God..and Paul has already told ..no human does.. how with their 'free' will.


I agree the gospel is part of God big rescue plan of all creation.. and I agree we WILL nit respond until born again (born from above..cf titus 3:5)

How?

God finds them. And convicts them. (scripture says he does this to the whole world..)

why? Because God so loved the world (the whole world. not just the elect)

when? At a time he knows they will respond to his calling, based on his knowledge of what it will take.

They still have to chose.. many are called few are chosen.. Not everyone who is called will freely chose grace.. Thats why many impostors are in our churches.. and there are many imposter churches who do not teach the gospel of grace.

If man could not chose. there would be one church and one church only. and that would be the church called from Christ to the gospel of the NT..

I did not say we would not respond to the gospel until we are born again. This is not true. We must repsond BEFORE we are born again. We can not be born again in sin. And until we respond we are in sin.

My point was we can't change until we are born again, big difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lol why is that?

this has been one of the most civil debates on this subject I have seen in here!!

 

[phil36]

Yep, man can choose..but not outside his nature... that nature needs to be changed first..he needs to be born again he needs to be born from above.. and that's not by mans 'will' .

The whole world is under judgement..therefore conviction. but man according to his nature chooses 'freely' within that nature to supress the truth..and Not seek God (as scripture tell us). That's why I use the term 'free agency' and not free will...

I truly do believe people misunderstand this... ' I honestly believe that people have not actually thought it though.

I order for you to 'freely' choose God He has to renew you..he gives you a new heart ... you need to be born again.. its only then will any man seek the things of God, its only then will man respond.

Anyhow I don't think I do justice to reformed thinking..My written communication is poor. However, eternal, I could suggest to you to read Luthers - bondage of the will.. not to force you to change your mind, although it may or may not. but to understand more where I am coming from.

Anyhow same time next year? you bring the coffee and I'll bring the biscuits? lol

 

[FORHISGLORY]

We would never choose Christ ! That's what Jesus told His disciples(John15).Spurgeon said that "the doctrine of election is the most humbling doctrine of the whole Bible !". He also said:" The doctrine of election has been written with an iron pen and it cannot be erased." A classic book on the subject is: The Bondage of the Will by Luther. God is so Good !

 

[HEknowsme]

If an animal is starving I can most assuredly bet He will always eat. The burning sensation of hunger drives him purposely. So did the animal have a choice or not? NO, because the blind hunger is all he knows. If he's not hungry he will pass it over.Does he know he will die if he does not eat? All creatures know the concept of life and death. Survival (fear) is driven deep within them since mans rebellion in the Garden. You could say that the animal has a choice but since creation animals have been subjected to man's control. We know that if we do not recognize God we could face the reality of death and the unknown. Do we believe or do we not believe. But through Gods word we are without excuse. Romans 1:19-21

…19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.…(THEY CHOSE NOT TO HONOR GOD). NOT AN ILLUSION.
To be without an excuse means They had a "CHOICE".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep, man can choose..but not outside his nature...

We are not debating this my friend. Well maybe you are.. But I am not. One does not have to leave his nature to trust God. One has to trust God first.

that nature needs to be changed first..he needs to be born again he needs to be born from above.. and that's not by mans 'will'

No argument. But again, this is not the argument.

even so, this can not happen unless the gospel message is first trusted. Again. It is not chaging nature. it is admitting guilt and no hope. that is the gospel message. one does not have to change his nature to do this. one has to admit he can't change his nature. That is what salvation is. Not only from eternal damnation, but from our old nature..

The whole world is under judgement..therefore conviction. but man according to his nature chooses 'freely' within that nature to supress the truth..and Not seek God (as scripture tell us). That's why I use the term 'free agency' and not free will...

free agency does not fit. That would mean God will send billions of people to hell without allowing them free will to chose. Sorry, this is my biggest gripe with calvanism. God can not claim to be a God of love, then do this.

I truly do believe people misunderstand this... ' I honestly believe that people have not actually thought it though.

Oh I have, I grew up in your doctrine, Steeped in it. It took me many hours of study and an open heart to come out from it. I fought it all the way, because my pride did not want me to believe the people I trusted with my eternity for many years could lead me wrong..

I order for you to 'freely' choose God He has to renew you..he gives you a new heart ... you need to be born again.. its only then will any man seek the things of God, its only then will man respond.

NO! You have to chose before you can be born again. Again not to change, just admit your guilty and can;t change and have no hope. I think you misunderstand what is being done..I do not have to seek the things of God to say God help me. I can't see the things you want for me because I am guilty.

Anyhow I don't think I do justice to reformed thinking..My written communication is poor. However, eternal, I could suggest to you to read Luthers - bondage of the will.. not to force you to change your mind, although it may or may not. but to understand more where I am coming from.

Anyhow same time next year? you bring the coffee and I'll bring the biscuits? lol

lol.. I can read it.. If I can find it.. But I have studied this in great detail for many years.. And again, I grew up believing as you do, in a calvanistic church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We would never choose Christ ! That's what Jesus told His disciples(John15).Spurgeon said that "the doctrine of election is the most humbling doctrine of the whole Bible !". He also said:" The doctrine of election has been written with an iron pen and it cannot be erased." A classic book on the subject is: The Bondage of the Will by Luther. God is so Good !

lol.. Ok if you say so.

I can not chose God you are correct. But I can chose to admit guilt and admit I have no hope. and then God can show me the way.

But I have to admit this first.. That is the gospel message..

 

[phil36]

Where does the scripture say you have to choose to be born again?

John 3

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP][b][/SUP] gives birth to spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP][c][/SUP] must be born again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

 

[phil36]

again...Paul tells us in Romans ...no one wants to seek God..no man is interested..he has to been born of the Spirit..to SEE.

the will is in bondage..its quite simple really.. If it was not for God foreknowing the person (in scripture its always relational), predestining = electing the person, calling the person.. Then no man WOULD choose God because in their sinful natural state they are as scripture tells us ''not seeking God'.. they will not as you suggest ..decide themselves; to choose God.

again, scripture clearly shows mans bondage.. man will not choose outside of his nature. Its this that you have to explain away.

I don't think you do know reformed theology.. because your not grasping the difference here.

I also believe that you choose to live for Jesus, you choose to repent and believe??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

again...Paul tells us in Romans ...no one wants to seek God..no man is interested..he has to been born of the Spirit..to SEE.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with the Gospel. One can see, Romans says Gods invisible attributes are CLEARLY SEEN..

the will is in bondage..its quite simple really..

Your the one making it complicated. A drowning man can see his danger and cry for help. This is no different.

If it was not for God foreknowing the person (in scripture its always relational), predestining = electing the person, calling the person.. Then no man WOULD choose God because in their sinful natural state they are as scripture tells us ''not seeking God'.. they will not as you suggest ..decide themselves; to choose God.

Now your making false accusations. I never claimed they would chose God. I claimed they would chose salvation.Thats a huge difference..

again, scripture clearly shows mans bondage.. man will not choose outside of his nature. Its this that you have to explain away.

1. No I do not
2. Even though I don't I already did. They did not chose against their nature. They realised their nature and cried out for help.
3. AFTER they are saved, THEN God changes their nature.

I don't think you do know reformed theology.. because your not grasping the difference here.

I KNOW you do not know my theology, Because your not grasping. You keep saying things I would not say nor that I believe

I know what your saying, You are not telling me anything I have not heard before.

I also believe that you choose to live for Jesus, you choose to repent and believe??

I can't chose to live for Jesus until I am healed first. I have no capacity to even know how or have a desire until then. This is the topic of discussion. Can I chose to be healed by my will, or reject to be healed by that same will..

 

[rauleetoe]

I have read a few times now of people saying about their 'free will'. doing this by their 'fre will' and doing that by their 'free will'.

Where does the bible teach you have 'free will'?

I believe it does,I recall there are several verses in the Bible mentioning 'free will' offerings. However, even the ability to choose is a gift from God and does not come from man,no good thing originally comes from us, we still need grace. And we are saved by grace,through faith. It would be a hard thing to prove that we do not have the ability to respond,even the word 'free will' can be loosely used, I prefer,libertarian free will when mentioning free will. And either extreme can be abused,the concept of no free will(in other words you cannot respond,yet God wants you too)and the only free will apart from God,( i mentioned to someone on a FB page I was on that his concept of being saved apart from God,without God is pelagian)it offended him,but its true..
So,we need grace,so that is outside of us..we cannot conjure that,amen..agreed,however! We need to to trust in,adhere to,rely on Christ,and that requires faith,see Hebrews 11:5. So,a response is needed..if we did not respond,if we do not have a testimony,if we have not mortified the deeds of the flesh,as the Bible commands us to(see collosians 3),if we have not set our minds on things above,not things below? Then how can we be saved? Salvation is a free gift,apart from us,this I declare,however,let us not be so quick to be forgetfull of the need for a response,in faith. For then we run into possible easy believism/antinomianism.

 

[phil36]

I believe it does,I recall there are several verses in the Bible mentioning 'free will' offerings. However, even the ability to choose is a gift from God and does not come from man,no good thing originally comes from us, we still need grace. And we are saved by grace,through faith. It would be a hard thing to prove that we do not have the ability to respond,even the word 'free will' can be loosely used, I prefer,libertarian free will when mentioning free will. And either extreme can be abused,the concept of no free will(in other words you cannot respond,yet God wants you too)and the only free will apart from God,( i mentioned to someone on a FB page I was on that his concept of being saved apart from God,without God is pelagian)it offended him,but its true..
So,we need grace,so that is outside of us..we cannot conjure that,amen..agreed,however! We need to to trust in,adhere to,rely on Christ,and that requires faith,see Hebrews 11:5. So,a response is needed..if we did not respond,if we do not have a testimony,if we have not mortified the deeds of the flesh,as the Bible commands us to(see collosians 3),if we have not set our minds on things above,not things below? Then how can we be saved? Salvation is a free gift,apart from us,this I declare,however,let us not be so quick to be forgetfull of the need for a response,in faith. For then we run into possible easy believism/antinomianism.

I can say libertarian free will is not biblical..but many for some reason believe it.. the free will offering has nothing to do with libertarian fee will..its an offering over and above hat was commanded..usuall in times of thanksgiving or celebration.

I more or less agree with you rauleetoe, we definatly need to believe, we definately choose Jesus and choose we certainly can.

And I agree with you Faith certainly is a gift... that's why we cannot initially choose it!

Abraham believed.....God said he was righteous...yet God had already called him. He had already chose and elected him..

look into 'free agency'. However, rather than going to those who write against it..read from reformed theologians.. and make an informed choice yourself... That's how I came to my own conclusion.. I read both sides. not propaganda against either.