Free will? really?

[RickShafer]

Not abortions, these are children mainly in other countries. And does not the bible say that ALL is lawful though not expedient?

Now 6 days was given to men to work. We STILL can't rest now that we have too much?

Please heed your own advice and research yourself. 18 million homes empty, 1, 000's of new cars on lots all around the world, etc.
I say that we can GIVE it away and you question the Spirit I adhere to?

Just open your eyes and look around.

I understand.
But you must see also that those cars were built by people making a wage for their work.
If we decide to give them away, how will they be repayed?
By the government?
O.K.
Let's all give according to our ability, and be supplied according to our needs.
I want you to study the U.S.S.R. to see how that actually worked in realtime. (Because that was a place that actually tried that)

 

[SpiritofFire]

I understand.
But you must see also that those cars were built by people making a wage for their work.
If we decide to give them away, how will they be repayed?
By the government?
O.K.
Let's all give according to our ability, and be supplied according to our needs.
I want you to study the U.S.S.R. to see how that actually worked in realtime. (Because that was a place that actually tried that)

No money. People work to get things they want and need. Give it to ALL freely and evil will cease. No place has tried what I'm proposing. Whatever you work for to maintain, you can have that without cost!

There are machines that do the bulk of the work now.

 

[RickShafer]

Even if machines did all the work, there would still be hunger, death, and inequity because of original sin.
This is why I wanted you to see the U.S.S.R.
The raw materials don't strip mine themselves.
The goods are not ladled out fairly.
Never have, never will be.....called "Original Sin"

 

[SpiritofFire]

Even if machines did all the work, there would still be hunger, death, and inequity because of original sin.
This is why I wanted you to see the U.S.S.R.
The raw materials don't strip mine themselves.
The goods are not ladled out fairly.
Never have, never will be.....called "Original Sin"

Not true. If the love of money is the root of evil, then take away the money.
When God fed Israel manna, all took according to their needs. Some more, some less.

What that means is that some might want 2 cars or 3 big screen tvs in their houses and others not so much.

We have enough food NOW for 12 billion! Hunger only exists because of money.

 

[SpiritofFire]

In short if we do what I propose, we can end all evil!

 

[AlayaRose]

If we have the power with in our selves to end evil, then why did Jesus die on the cross?

 

[SpiritofFire]

If we have the power with in our selves to end evil, then why did Jesus die on the cross?

To give us that power! We only have to believe!

 

[RickShafer]

Listen, love is not a cause, it is an effect.
Love is an effect.
The love of money is the root of all evil only because mankind is addicted to coveting.
- Not the money, but what it can buy.
This is because of original sin.(Which is pride - 'I will be as God')
Now, you know that God is love. But of a different kind.
The love of mankind is wholly subject to his whims, and what was good enough last week is never enough now.
- Called coveting.
The reason why I want you to study the U.S.S.R. is because it was the best test case for singling out the fallen nature of mankind.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Listen, love is not a cause, it is an effect.
Love is an effect.
The love of money is the root of all evil only because mankind is addicted to coveting.
- Not the money, but what it can buy.
This is because of original sin.(Which is pride - 'I will be as God')
Now, you know that God is love. But of a different kind.
The love of mankind is wholly subject to his whims, and what was good enough last week is never enough now.
- Called coveting.
The reason why I want you to study the U.S.S.R. is because it was the best test case for singling out the fallen nature of mankind.

What is wrong with trying it? Everything else here only goes to the grave! If I research the USSR will you research on the abundance in the world?

Look up empty houses across the world, food and what we waste every day. Look up the computers and other things that are stockpiling up.

 

[RickShafer]

I already know about it. Detroit is a ghost town with vacant houses.
But China and India are stuffed to the gills with people living in 10' x 20' x6' stalls.
- Most of the world is dirt poor.
You can't just decide to equalize it all. It just doesn't work.
If presidents and prime ministers were perfect, then maybe, but even then, everyone would have to work.
Things don't make themselves.
Food doesn't grow without farming.

 

[Sanashankar]

Some people who did not have free will in the bible:

1. Peter- He said he will not deny Jesus Christ, but he did
2. Paul- a persecutor who was going to kill christians. Paul did not accept Jesus and got saved, but God changed him. NO FREE WILL
3. Adam- it was a part of God's plan for Adam to sin, because Jesus was appointed to die for our sins ever before the foundation of the world (1Pet 1:20)
4. Israelite- Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
5. Pharoah- God hardens his heart. (Roman 9:17-18, exodus 9:12)
4. Eve- God put a heart that can lust in Eve's body, because of which she sinned.
6. Satan- If u read Job, u will notice that Satan is actually asking permission from God

and so many others...

"In Whom also we have OBTAINED an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11). "For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
"For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, [this is the cause an force behind our Christian walk. We are ‘His workmanship’ in action, not some presumed freedom of the will in action] created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some people who did not have free will in the bible:

1. Peter- He said he will not deny Jesus Christ, but he did

He did because he was scared. and of his free will chose too. Jesus knew he would and predicted it.

2. Paul- a persecutor who was going to kill christians. Paul did not accept Jesus and got saved, but God changed him. NO FREE WILL

Had free will. Jesus asked him why he was persecuting, He asked for his response. SAUL had to chose.. free will

3. Adam- it was a part of God's plan for Adam to sin, because Jesus was appointed to die for our sins ever before the foundation of the world (1Pet 1:20)

Part of Gods plan because HE KNEW HE WOULD SIN. To say God created mankind just to remove free will and send most of it to eternal hell is just crazy!!

4. Israelite- Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Yet Jesus said he wanted (his will) to take them under his wing like a mother, BUT THEY WERE NOT WILLING..

They are blind to him because they still think the law saves them. THEY CHOSE. God did not force.

5. Pharoah- God hardens his heart. (Roman 9:17-18, exodus 9:12)

The word harden means strengthen. God strengthened pharoahs will. He did not force him to do anything, He just gave him more courage to do what he wanted to do in the first place. Which is what harden ones heart means.

4. Eve- God put a heart that can lust in Eve's body, because of which she sinned.

No, God gave Eve free will. Will you trust me, Or trust your own desire. which is what Satan did. God did not make us robots. He made us as relational beings, His desire was to take care of us. We decided of our own free will he could not do it. because we did not trust him.

6. Satan- If u read Job, u will notice that Satan is actually asking permission from God

Yep. Because Satan wanted to do it (free will) but he understood God has to let him.. God protects us, Nothing happens unless he allows it.

and so many others...

"In Whom also we have OBTAINED an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11). "For it is God which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
"For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, [this is the cause an force behind our Christian walk. We are ‘His workmanship’ in action, not some presumed freedom of the will in action] created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

It is crap like this that makes me HATE calvanism. and want to get up and fight, It tears at my inner fiber and being. The anger I have to confess to God..

 

[RickShafer]

He did because he was scared. and of his free will chose too. Jesus knew he would and predicted it.


Had free will. Jesus asked him why he was persecuting, He asked for his response. SAUL had to chose.. free will


Part of Gods plan because HE KNEW HE WOULD SIN. To say God created mankind just to remove free will and send most of it to eternal hell is just crazy!!


Yet Jesus said he wanted (his will) to take them under his wing like a mother, BUT THEY WERE NOT WILLING..

They are blind to him because they still think the law saves them. THEY CHOSE. God did not force.


The word harden means strengthen. God strengthened pharoahs will. He did not force him to do anything, He just gave him more courage to do what he wanted to do in the first place. Which is what harden ones heart means.

No, God gave Eve free will. Will you trust me, Or trust your own desire. which is what Satan did. God did not make us robots. He made us as relational beings, His desire was to take care of us. We decided of our own free will he could not do it. because we did not trust him.


Yep. Because Satan wanted to do it (free will) but he understood God has to let him.. God protects us, Nothing happens unless he allows it.




It is crap like this that makes me HATE calvanism. and want to get up and fight, It tears at my inner fiber and being. The anger I have to confess to God..

You love yourself then.

What was God doing strengthening pharaoh's resolve, if he had freewill?
Shouldn't God have left him to his own devices? Maybe he would have repented after the first two plagues then.
And Israel would have lived happily ever after in egypt.

As for Paul, was he blinded or was he not?
Who blinded him? Whose disciple laid hands on him to receive his sight?

Then you say God protects us........how? If we have freewill how does He do that?

And Satan has to ask permission of God but we are free to do as we please?
This is called a major hint....Satan is the author of 'do as thou wilt', even in the oldest book in the Bible it is clear and evident that even the most rebellious needs to get an O.K.

What did Paul say about himself? - I AM A LOVE SLAVE TO CHRIST JESUS (Bond servant)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You love yourself then.

And this just makes my anger wage even worse.

How can I love myself when my faith is COMPLETELY in Christ? You people do not make any sense.

The schoolmaster led me to Christ, it took me awhile. But I finally stopped trying to save myself and trusted God to save me..

What was God doing strengthening pharaoh's resolve, if he had freewill?

What was God doing? He did a little bit at a time. Everytime Pharoah decided to back up and deny God he got a little stronger. That happens to us all when we harden our hearts..

There is a reason God started small and each plague got bigger and bigger. if he started big, he would not have had the same success.

Shouldn't God have left him to his own devices? Maybe he would have repented after the first two plagues then.

He did..

What did God say?

Pharoah is hard (strong) He has a tough will

what happened after the second plague? But Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them,

Pharoah hardened his own heart.

And Israel would have lived happily ever after in egypt.

Yeah whatever, you think the pharoah, who considers himself a God is going to let Israel live happy. and give in to a few plagues. Look what it took for God to change his mind, And he still did not change his mind, He still did not trust God was real. and he lost his whole army because of it.

As for Paul, was he blinded or was he not?

And?? Did he still have to chose?? YES!! He could have done whatever he willed.Lucky for us, he Chose God. then again, If Paul did not chose God. God would have had someone else do what he did. Thats is what makes God so great, HE KNOWS WHAT PEOPEL WILL DO AND HOW THEY WILL REACT. that is what makes him God.

Then you say God protects us........how? If we have freewill how does He do that?

lol. If you know everything that could have happened to you, and saw how many times God protected you. I think you would be scared out of your wits, Or if anything, trust God even more.

What does free will have to do with it? He allows us to do what we want, If we turn, we suffer. What good is chastening if one does not have free will?? Again, the law and chastening of God are meaningless in your doctrine! Why would God chasten us to learn us? he is going to MAKE US DO what he wants anyway!!

And Satan has to ask permission of God but we are free to do as we please?

You think you are free to do what you please? Again, I bet if you knew every time God stopped you from doing something by putting a roadblock in your way, you would be amazed.

This is called a major hint....Satan is the author of 'do as thou wilt', even in the oldest book in the Bible it is clear and evident that even the most rebellious needs to get an O.K.

What did Paul say about himself? - I AM A LOVE SLAVE TO CHRIST JESUS (Bond servant)

Yep. And if he did not have free will, he would not be a slave, he would be a Robot! Paul chose to be a slave, he was not forced!

 

[homwardbound]

1) you're not the first Adam who was free - but, as you yourself just said, after Adam fell:

man became alive to the flesh and dead to the Spirit of God

so, being dead to God, and alive (enslaved) to sin...how is this free?

a slave is free to move about within his estate as a slave.
he has free will to decide which sins he chooses to indulge in today.
his world is all sin. he serves sin.

is a slave free?

By Christ's finished work I have been set free from that nasty old flesh and made alive in the Spirit of God by God at the resurrection after the death of Christ became my death to the self just as Paul said. This was not just for Paul
Paul explained this very well in more than one epistle

 

[phil36]

Myabe Calvinism arouses your anger because you cant let of the fact that God's decree's and not you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Myabe Calvinism arouses your anger because you cant let of the fact that God's decree's and not you?

Your joking right?

Serious my friend, what kind of crap is this..

MY FAITH IS COMPLETELY IN CHRIST. IN HIS WORK!!

how can I take credit for this. WHEN GOD DID ALL THE WORK??

Stop thinking religiously. and start thinking seriously!!


Nothing good comes from me.. And nothing ever will. Only by trusting in GOD can any good come.. Why in Gods name would I trust myself? or want Glory?

If you think this, you do not know me at all!!

 

[homwardbound]

just some questions i ask myself



if God is revealing His Righteousness [apart from the Law, the Righteousness He declares by grace through Faith in His Son] - to those He knows have the right motives, is it Mercy...or is it reward?



can you be set free by any other means than The Cross of Christ and God's Mercy?

did you have right motives before you were set free from selfish flesh?

i don't know.

You are amusing me you know. God's Mercy is better than sacrifice and is required above sacrifice. And thus Mercy we have received, Mercy we give in response, no flesh will ever please God the only flesh that ever did was and is Christ Jesus's and he died for us in the flesh so we could agree and die with him in the Flesh, by asking God to co-crucify our flesh daily with Chrsit so we could say it like Paul
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

 

[homwardbound]

just some questions i ask myself



if God is revealing His Righteousness [apart from the Law, the Righteousness He declares by grace through Faith in His Son] - to those He knows have the right motives, is it Mercy...or is it reward?



can you be set free by any other means than The Cross of Christ and God's Mercy?

did you have right motives before you were set free from selfish flesh?

i don't know.

To know God and no otjher way than through Christ

"Comfort God by letting God know that you would see God just to dwell in God's Presence. Not for teaching, not for material gain, not even for a message, but for God. The longing of the human heart to be loved for itself is something caught from the Great Divine Heart."

 

[RickShafer]

And this just makes my anger wage even worse.

How can I love myself when my faith is COMPLETELY in Christ? You people do not make any sense.

The schoolmaster led me to Christ, it took me awhile. But I finally stopped trying to save myself and trusted God to save me..





What was God doing? He did a little bit at a time. Everytime Pharoah decided to back up and deny God he got a little stronger. That happens to us all when we harden our hearts..

There is a reason God started small and each plague got bigger and bigger. if he started big, he would not have had the same success.


He did..

What did God say?

Pharoah is hard (strong) He has a tough will

what happened after the second plague? But Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them,

Pharoah hardened his own heart.


Yeah whatever, you think the pharoah, who considers himself a God is going to let Israel live happy. and give in to a few plagues. Look what it took for God to change his mind, And he still did not change his mind, He still did not trust God was real. and he lost his whole army because of it.





And?? Did he still have to chose?? YES!! He could have done whatever he willed.Lucky for us, he Chose God. then again, If Paul did not chose God. God would have had someone else do what he did. Thats is what makes God so great, HE KNOWS WHAT PEOPEL WILL DO AND HOW THEY WILL REACT. that is what makes him God.



lol. If you know everything that could have happened to you, and saw how many times God protected you. I think you would be scared out of your wits, Or if anything, trust God even more.

What does free will have to do with it? He allows us to do what we want, If we turn, we suffer. What good is chastening if one does not have free will?? Again, the law and chastening of God are meaningless in your doctrine! Why would God chasten us to learn us? he is going to MAKE US DO what he wants anyway!!



You think you are free to do what you please? Again, I bet if you knew every time God stopped you from doing something by putting a roadblock in your way, you would be amazed.


Yep. And if he did not have free will, he would not be a slave, he would be a Robot! Paul chose to be a slave, he was not forced!

You are a curious case.
You seem to be making my points for me.
You say - "If you only knew!!!!" - YEA BUD, THAT WAS MY POINT!
You make my points for me. 'Free will' you say, while claiming God's grace all over.
- I call it election. As does Paul, as does Augustine, as does Luther, as does Calvin, as did tens of priests before Luther and hundreds of theologians after Calvin.