"Immediately after..." (Matthew 24:29)

[Houly]

The events of 70 A.D. can be the beginning of the Tribulation... ( with the end of it still future )



Why do people believe that the length of the Tribulation MUST BE very short?

From the first post:
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the conditions for the past 2,000 years, which will continue until Jesus Christ returns.

Yeah, there is always tribulation. The 7-year "great tribulation" (or whatever name you want to put on it) doesn't mean the past 2,000 years haven't been a tribulation. It means there will be a specific period of 84 months in which the events of John's Revelation are fulfilled.

 

[Houly]

food for thought.

the birth pangs are the past 2000 years. The wars and rumors of wars. and kingdom rising against kingdom and nation against nation.

but the end is not yet.

Then the birth pangs start and exponentially gets worst as the time gets close.

THEN the abomination which makes desolate.

THEN the great tribulation, or times of jacobs trouble.

then Christ returns.

It is not unreasonable to think this time is very short. The generation who sees these things will live through to its completion.

I agree completely. When people say "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation," we're just talking about the final 7 years (42 months before the AofD and 42 months after). The "birth pains" of Matthew 24:4-14 have been the past 2,000 years.

 

[GRA]

that would be great, But we are told exactly when it will begin.

Only in 'event' terms.

With the abomination of desolation.

Correct.

Which according to daniel, occures in the middle of a week (7 years)

Incorrect.

First -- the statement in Daniel 9:27 - 'and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease' - is not describing the Abomination of Desolation.

Second -- all 70 weeks - unbroken - came and went - fulfilled. The idea that the 70th week is "separate" from the other 69 - comes from the misinterpretation of the above referenced phrase in Daniel 9:27 - and is not supported anywhere in scripture.

The "70 weeks of Daniel" ended 490 years ( 70 x 7 ) after 'the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem' ( Daniel 9:25 ).

this taken with other prophesy which concerns this time period (and there will be ALOT of prophesy concerning this) leads us to believe it to be 3.5 years. It is not just taken lighlty.. or with no proof or evidence.

No place in scripture that defines a 3.5-year / 42-month / 1260-day period of time provides any proof or evidence of the specific length of the tribulation period... Because none of these places refer to the specific length of the tribulation period as a whole.

i.e. ( for example ) -

Revelation 13:

[SUP]5[/SUP] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This does not signify that the "power given" exactly equals 'tribulation period'. This is assumed.

The "power given" may be contained within the 'tribulation period'. ( i.e. - the 'tribulation period' is actually longer than "42 months" )

Also. Jesus says this time will be "cut short" at his return, for if he did not return, no flesh (life on earth) would survive.

Jesus does not say - per se - that it will be "cut short" at his return. This is assumed.

In Matthew 24, it says 'except those days should be shortened' and 'those days shall be shortened'.

In Mark 13, it says 'except that the Lord had shortened those days' and 'he hath shortened the days'.

There is no indication in Luke 21.

The only certainty we have from these verses is that:

"The Lord causes the days to be shortened."

( However -- not necessarily at / by His return. )

So it may not be exactly 3.5 years. But it will not be longer.. And the quote there takes alot to account for. Until the 50's this prophesy was unable to be fulfilled. Today it can be.

The 50's??? The first "public" atomic bomb "exhibition" ( not including testing ) was in 1945...

 

[john832]

Only in 'event' terms.



Correct.



Incorrect.

First -- the statement in Daniel 9:27 - 'and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease' - is not describing the Abomination of Desolation.

Second -- all 70 weeks - unbroken - came and went - fulfilled. The idea that the 70th week is "separate" from the other 69 - comes from the misinterpretation of the above referenced phrase in Daniel 9:27 - and is not supported anywhere in scripture.

The "70 weeks of Daniel" ended 490 years ( 70 x 7 ) after 'the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem' ( Daniel 9:25 ).



No place in scripture that defines a 3.5-year / 42-month / 1260-day period of time provides any proof or evidence of the specific length of the tribulation period... Because none of these places refer to the specific length of the tribulation period as a whole.

i.e. ( for example ) -

Revelation 13:

[SUP]5[/SUP] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This does not signify that the "power given" exactly equals 'tribulation period'. This is assumed.

The "power given" may be contained within the 'tribulation period'. ( i.e. - the 'tribulation period' is actually longer than "42 months" )



Jesus does not say - per se - that it will be "cut short" at his return. This is assumed.

In Matthew 24, it says 'except those days should be shortened' and 'those days shall be shortened'.

In Mark 13, it says 'except that the Lord had shortened those days' and 'he hath shortened the days'.

There is no indication in Luke 21.

The only certainty we have from these verses is that:

"The Lord causes the days to be shortened."

( However -- not necessarily at / by His return. )



The 50's??? The first "public" atomic bomb "exhibition" ( not including testing ) was in 1945...

First two bombs detonated in anger Aug 6 and 9 but it was not until the 1950's that enough weaponry was stockpiled to erase all life from the earth.

 

[GRA]

First two bombs detonated in anger Aug 6 and 9 but it was not until the 1950's that enough weaponry was stockpiled to erase all life from the earth.

O.K. - I see what you mean...

 

[GRA]

O.K. - I see what you mean...

I mean --- I see what eternally-gratefull means... ???

 

[Houly]

that would be great, But we are told exactly when it will begin.

With the abomination of desolation. Which according to daniel, occures in the middle of a week (7 years)

this taken with other prophesy which concerns this time period (and there will be ALOT of prophesy concerning this) leads us to believe it to be 3.5 years. It is not just taken lighlty.. or with no proof or evidence.

And John's Revelation tells us the duration in three ways: 42 months, 1260 days, "a time, two times, and half a time" (or "a year, two years, and half a year"). He was definitely talking about a 3.5-year period.

 

[pickles]

I have always believed that prophacies were written so when we need to know what has or is happening is according to prophacies given?
That there will be no confusion or questioning.
For God is not a God of confusion.
That we will know without doubt, and all will be revieled so we may take comfort in God's word and promise given.
Faith will be what brings Gods understanding, and the streangth to sustain us.

God bless
pickles

 

[Houly]

I have always believed that prophacies were written so when we need to know what has or is happening is according to prophacies given?
That there will be no confusion or questioning.
For God is not a God of confusion.
That we will know without doubt, and all will be revieled so we may take comfort in God's word and promise given.
Faith will be what brings Gods understanding, and the streangth to sustain us.

God bless
pickles

I agree. When these things happen, we won't be looking back debating about it. The AofD of Matthew 24, for example, will be obvious to true Christians; at that point, we won't need to debate about whether or not it was fulfilled in 70 AD. Finally, when Jesus does return, He will be seen obviously by all nations coming on the clouds of heaven; there will be no question about it.

Scripture repeatedly warns us to be careful about accepting past-fulfillment, since much of this is done to deceive people and to cause them to forget what is to come.

2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Trax]

I have been studying this for years --

The Holy Spirit gave it to me in the blink of an eye. However, its the terminology that confuses people.
The "end time" events, say as mentioned in the book of Rev, "THAT" period, is a "time of Jacob's trouble".
The "great tribulation" from a "christian" mindset assumes its directed at the church. There *IS* tribulation
for the church. It *IS* Great Tribulation. There is another "Great Tribulation" and people assign it to the
church, when it is directed at the Jews. However, the Lord hammered the time short and stated it was short
and pointed out the Jews. The typical christian who dabbles in prophecy, has a huge ego and full of pride,
because they think everything else that is going to happen, has the church on center stage. Its not.
The church is just a section in the Bible. Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus, Jesus to the church age,
church age back to the nation of Israel.

 

[Houly]

Trax, there's another thread floating around about Matthew 24:30-31. Do you agree that those verses are about the return of our Lord?

This thread is just making the point that those verses will be fulfilled immediately after the great distress of Matthew 24:21, which is the greatest distress to ever happen in the world.

 

[freeman4]

Revelation says 31/2 years

 

[Houly]

Revelation says 31/2 years

Yeah, there's 42 months or 1,260 days or "a time, two times, and half a time" after the beast is raised. The other 42 months is the testimony of the two witnesses, who are killed when the beast is raised (Revelation 11:7).

 

[directline2iam]

I'm a futurist. There are several OT and NT prophecies that have not been fulfilled, including most of Revelation. In this thread, I'd like to focus on Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:4-14 describes the conditions for the past 2,000 years, which will continue until Jesus Christ returns. That's one reason I think the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15, which is accompanied by the greatest distress to ever happen in the world, is still future. Matthew 24:29-31 (the return of Jesus) is then "immediately after the distress of those days" (the greatest distress).

Preterists usually relate the AofD (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11) to the events of 70 AD. This can't be true, since Jesus didn't return immediately after 70 AD.

Jesus Christ will return immediately after the greatest distress that has ever happened and will ever happen.

Doesn't Dan 12:11 say from the time when the new covenant comes into effect (the resurrection of Christ) to the time the A of D sets up it will be 1290 days which is now passed and scripture is fulfilled to that point. So what happened in the years 1314-1320 time period?

 

[jb]

No place in scripture that defines a 3.5-year / 42-month / 1260-day period of time provides any proof or evidence of the specific length of the tribulation period...

Dan 12v1,6,7: "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time...(Matt 24v15-21 (esp v21), Rev 7v14) "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?" The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven; and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished.

So, the time of trouble (i.e., Jacob's Trouble (Jer 30v7)/The Great Tribualation) such has never been since there was a nation is still future for Dan 12v9 tells us it occurs at 'the time of the end' and such a time has NOT occured as yet; Dan 12v7 tells us that this period of time also know as the Great Tribulation is 'a time, two times and half a time' three and a half years, so you quite wrong to say that the time period that the Great Tribulation lasts is not given in Scripture, for as I have shown it is, it last three and a half years!

By the way, some of your other interpretations of the prophetic Scriptures are also wrong, one being your erroneous view that Dan 9v27 (Daniel's 70th week) is already fulfilled, it isn't, as Dan 9v27, 11v31, 12v11 with Dan 12v9 tells us that it occurs at ' the time of the end,' the period of time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Christ and the setting up of the Millennium kingdom. This wrong interpretation scuppers some of you other prophetic interpretation, so maybe you might want to go and have another re-think.

 

[Houly]

Doesn't Dan 12:11 say from the time when the new covenant comes into effect (the resurrection of Christ) to the time the A of D sets up it will be 1290 days which is now passed and scripture is fulfilled to that point. So what happened in the years 1314-1320 time period?

From the time the AofD is set up there will be 1,290 days.

 

[GRA]

Dan 12v1,6,7: "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time...(Matt 24v15-21 (esp v21), Rev 7v14) "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?" The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven; and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished.

So, the time of trouble (i.e., Jacob's Trouble (Jer 30v7)/The Great Tribualation) such has never been since there was a nation is still future for Dan 12v9 tells us it occurs at 'the time of the end' and such a time has NOT occured as yet; Dan 12v7 tells us that this period of time also know as the Great Tribulation is 'a time, two times and half a time' three and a half years, so you quite wrong to say that the time period that the Great Tribulation lasts is not given in Scripture, for as I have shown it is, it last three and a half years!

I personally do not believe that the "Jacob's trouble" of Jeremiah 30:7 is the same as the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21; rather, it is referring to the days of Armageddon after the Second Coming of Christ. The following verses are all referring to the same thing:

Jeremiah 30:

[SUP]6[/SUP] Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? [SUP]7[/SUP] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Isaiah 13:

[SUP]7[/SUP] Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: [SUP]8[/SUP] And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. ... [SUP]15[/SUP] Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. [SUP]16[/SUP] Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Zechariah 14:

[SUP]2[/SUP] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

( Read the entirety of each passage and consider the complete context... )

~

The verses you quote from Daniel have to be considered in the overall context of the entirety of chapters 11 & 12 together.

"How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" is not asking "How long will the Great Tribulation be?"

In the complete context of Daniel 11 & 12 together:

"How long shall it be [ from what starting point in time? ] to the end of these wonders?"

The "time, times, and an half" is the answer to the question asked; however, there is no direct association ( with regard to span of time ) between the question asked and the "time of trouble" of Daniel 12:1. The "time of trouble" is not defined to be 3.5 years in length of time; nor is it even defined to be the 'that' which is 3.5 years in length of time.

In fact, Jeremiah 30:7 seems to suggest that "Jacob's trouble" is actually a 'shorter' rather than a 'longer' period of time...

Jeremiah 30:

[SUP]7[/SUP] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

The two things are certainly related, but are not "identically" the same thing.

...

Who do you suppose the 'he' is in Daniel 12:7 that "shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people"...? ( as defined by Daniel 11 & 12 )

~

Daniel 11:

[SUP]40[/SUP] And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. [SUP]41[/SUP] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. [SUP]42[/SUP] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [SUP]43[/SUP] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. [SUP]44[/SUP] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. [SUP]45[/SUP] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Would you say that everything in this description occurs "at the time of the end" but before the "time of trouble" of Daniel 12:1 ? Or, does Daniel 12:1 overlay the above verses in Daniel 11 with regard to span of time? What determines which of these is true?

Is 'the time of the end' a specific point in time ( i.e. - "the beginning of the end" ) or is it a specific period of time ( "the last hours / days / months / years of the end" ) ?

How long is 'the time of the end'?

By the way, some of your other interpretations of the prophetic Scriptures are also wrong, one being your erroneous view that Dan 9v27 (Daniel's 70th week) is already fulfilled, it isn't, as Dan 9v27, 11v31, 12v11 with Dan 12v9 tells us that it occurs at ' the time of the end,' the period of time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Christ and the setting up of the Millennium kingdom. This wrong interpretation scuppers some of you other prophetic interpretation, so maybe you might want to go and have another re-think.

"To each his own..."

"We shall see..."

 

[GRA]

From the time the AofD is set up there will be 1,290 days.

"Until what ... ???"

 

[Houly]

"Until what ... ???"

Probably Rev. 19:11.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

The post trib rapture is guaranteed. If you believe in two raptures you have to share verses.