Does God expect the Jews to stop Jewish rituals when they know Jesus?

[john832]

Ha, ha, ha!
You do err greatly!
Please list the other scriptures you reference to support your argument.
(Because you have not referenced any)
- -Or continue in your error.

I notice you have listed none to justify your error, but if you wish...

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

From the Diaglott...

Rom 14:17 Not for is the kingdom of the God eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in spirit holy;

βρῶσις
brōsis
bro'-sis
From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively); by extension (concretely) food (literally or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.

G4213
πόσις
posis
pos'-is
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.

The foods (word for meat in Rom 14:15 is broma and means foods) were those that were those dedicated and sacrificed to idols.

You did list this one initially, but I saw no explanation for it...

1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Although I am not a fan of Barclay, he does a fair job here...

Paul brings to an end this long discussion of the question of meat offered to idols with some very practical advice.

(i) His advice is that a Christian can buy anything that is sold in the shops and ask no questions. It was true that the meat sold in the shops might well have formed part of a sacrifice or have been slaughtered in the name of some god lest the demons enter into it; but it is possible to be too fussy and to create difficulties where none need exist. After all, in the last analysis, all things are God's.

(ii) If the Christian accepts an invitation to dinner in the house of a pagan, let him eat what is put before him and ask no questions. But, if he is deliberately informed that the meat is part of a sacrifice, he must not eat it. The assumption is that he is told by one of these brothers who cannot rid his conscience of the feeling that to eat such meat is wrong. Rather than bring worry to such a man the Christian must not eat.

(iii) So once again out of an old and remote situation emerges a great truth. Many a thing that a man may do with perfect safety as far as he himself is concerned, he must not do if it is going to be a stumbling-block to someone else. There is nothing more real than Christian freedom; but Christian freedom must be used to help others and not to shock or hurt them. A man has a duty to himself but a still greater duty to others.

The subject is not clean and unclean, it is meats offered to idols. How does Paul feel about clean and unclean?

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now what scripture did Paul and Timothy have?

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The only scriptures they had were the O.T. Now where in the O.T. are meats sanctified (set apart) by the Word of God?

Lev 11 and Deut 14.

The usual defense when one has none is to attack with a supercilious laugh. Ha ha ha.

 

[Hizikyah]

Scribes and scholars, like Paul, understood Hebrew, but the common folk didn't. That is why they had to have Targumists (Targum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) to translate from Hebrew to Aramaic at religious gatherings. Targums were prevalent a century before Christ because the populace forgot how to speak Hebrew.

How is that possible with the "J" writings, the "E" writings, the "p" writings and then years after the Masoretic text. Wasnt targum before Masoretic? My focus has been on the "J" writings as there the oldest.

My thought was always that different regions had different languages, and that is why these different groups made different texts. Also wasn't there pockets of even Israylites who didn't adapt to the vowel points and what not?

I have to log now but im interested to hear your opinion and will look into it.

 

[Grandpa]

Does God expect the Jews to stop Jewish rituals when they know Jesus?

The jewish rituals were given because of transgression. The Lord Jesus was given as a solution to this transgression.

If you are forgiven of your transgression and you know it wasn't by your work or rituals I don't know why you would go back to practicing the work and rituals that didn't do anything to forgive you of your transgressions.

I would think you would desire this New Way you were shown through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Praus]

Im no scholar never claim to be, however, there was no J in english until the 15th century and there has never been a J in Hebrew. I don't know how Jew is written in latin as I know nothing about latin, I do know however satan is tricky and is beyond the human mind, therefore My whole point is IM NOT TAKING ANY CHANCES IF I KNOW SOMETHING MIGHT BE WRONG, not worth it to me. What is Jew in latin, I can learn something here

You've been wrong twice in a row with Hebrew Roots/Sacred Name teachings.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/72182-sabbath-confusion-2.html#post1165434

In Latin Jupiter is Iupiter or Iuppiter, Peter is Petrus, Jew is Iudaeus; so Iupiter has no relationship to "Iudaeus Petrus".

 

[RickShafer]

Me - Red

I notice you have listed none to justify your error, but if you wish...

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (no meaning to the argument)

From the Diaglott...

Rom 14:17 Not for is the kingdom of the God eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in spirit holy; (Again, I was the one quoting I Cor. 10:24-28.....you were the one refuting it.......a pretty shabby job so far, but continue)

βρῶσις
brōsis
bro'-sis
From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively); by extension (concretely) food (literally or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.

G4213
πόσις
posis
pos'-is
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.

The foods (word for meat in Rom 14:15 is broma and means foods) were those that were those dedicated and sacrificed to idols. (Nothing says it was offered to idols, NOT ONE THING....it could well be pork, or something strangled) - - (NEXT)

You did list this one initially, but I saw no explanation for it...(I did not originally reference it, but I appreciate that you did; and I just gave you the only explanation that can be derived from it, seeing as 'idol' is never mentioned)

1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: (Finally, the text I referenced)

Although I am not a fan of Barclay, he does a fair job here...

Paul brings to an end this long discussion of the question of meat offered to idols with some very practical advice.

(i) His advice is that a Christian can buy anything that is sold in the shops and ask no questions. It was true that the meat sold in the shops might well have formed part of a sacrifice or have been slaughtered in the name of some god lest the demons enter into it; but it is possible to be too fussy and to create difficulties where none need exist. After all, in the last analysis, all things are God's.

(ii) If the Christian accepts an invitation to dinner in the house of a pagan, let him eat what is put before him and ask no questions. But, if he is deliberately informed that the meat is part of a sacrifice, he must not eat it. The assumption is that he is told by one of these brothers who cannot rid his conscience of the feeling that to eat such meat is wrong. Rather than bring worry to such a man the Christian must not eat. (Yes, just what Paul said later in the chapter, which I also concurred by posting)

(iii) So once again out of an old and remote situation emerges a great truth. Many a thing that a man may do with perfect safety as far as he himself is concerned, he must not do if it is going to be a stumbling-block to someone else. There is nothing more real than Christian freedom; but Christian freedom must be used to help others and not to shock or hurt them. A man has a duty to himself but a still greater duty to others. (?????? I'm still waiting for your response, so far all you have done is reaffirmed what Paul said, and I seconded)
The subject is not clean and unclean, it is meats offered to idols. How does Paul feel about clean and unclean?(No it's not!) - (You miss much)

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now what scripture did Paul and Timothy have?

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The only scriptures they had were the O.T. Now where in the O.T. are meats sanctified (set apart) by the Word of God?

Lev 11 and Deut 14. (Yes, and what scriptures did they have about animal sacrifice????) -

The usual defense when one has none is to attack with a supercilious laugh. Ha ha ha.

So you are saying Paul told Timothy to uphold all of the scriptures, which includes all of the dietery law and all of the ceremonial law and all of the sacrificial law.......
So you are saying Paul told Timothy to uphold animal sacrifice?

This deserves a bigger response:

Aaaaahhh, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha !!!!!!!

- - (Thanks for the laugh, that was a good one!!!)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How is that possible with the "J" writings, the "E" writings, the "p" writings and then years after the Masoretic text. Wasnt targum before Masoretic? My focus has been on the "J" writings as there the oldest.

My thought was always that different regions had different languages, and that is why these different groups made different texts. Also wasn't there pockets of even Israylites who didn't adapt to the vowel points and what not?

I have to log now but im interested to hear your opinion and will look into it.

The Targumists were a minimum of 600 years before the Masoretes began their work.

 

[john832]

Does God expect the Jews to stop Jewish rituals when they know Jesus?

The jewish rituals were given because of transgression. The Lord Jesus was given as a solution to this transgression.

If you are forgiven of your transgression and you know it wasn't by your work or rituals I don't know why you would go back to practicing the work and rituals that didn't do anything to forgive you of your transgressions.

I would think you would desire this New Way you were shown through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

What sin was this given for?

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

 

[john832]

Me - Red



So you are saying Paul told Timothy to uphold all of the scriptures, which includes all of the dietery law and all of the ceremonial law and all of the sacrificial law.......
So you are saying Paul told Timothy to uphold animal sacrifice?

This deserves a bigger response:

Aaaaahhh, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha !!!!!!!

- - (Thanks for the laugh, that was a good one!!!)

What a thorough, in depth, scriptural explanation.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The jewish rituals were given because of transgression. The Lord Jesus was given as a solution to this transgression.
If you are forgiven of your transgression and you know it wasn't by your work or rituals I don't know why you would go back to practicing the work and rituals that didn't do anything to forgive you of your transgressions.
I would think you would desire this New Way you were shown through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Grandpa: The Bible for $1000, please.

Alex: 'Reverting back to Jewish works and rituals that don't do anything to forgive one's transgressions.'

Grandpa: What is unbelief?

Alex: Astonishing, isn't it? That's correct. Please continue...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What sin was this given for?

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

Not loving your neighbor as yourself...

 

[john832]

Not loving your neighbor as yourself...

Ah, coming from one who doesn't believe the Law is in effect? Yep, you are right, there is one Law, love. This has two parts, love God and love your neighbor. The first, love God, has four parts and the second, love your neighbor has six parts. Each of the these 10 parts has many more parts explaining the details.

What we call them are Laws, Commandments, Statutes and Judgments. Thanks for affirming that.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ah, coming from one who doesn't believe the Law is in effect? Yep, you are right, there is one Law, love. This has two parts, love God and love your neighbor. The first, love God, has four parts and the second, love your neighbor has six parts. Each of the these 10 parts has many more parts explaining the details.

What we call them are Laws, Commandments, Statutes and Judgments. Thanks for affirming that.

But love is love. Do that and you fulfill all.

 

[RickShafer]

What a thorough, in depth, scriptural explanation.

I answered you point for point.
- It just so happens you had no points.
- - So I pointed that out.

Try again.

You said that Paul told Timothy to observe the scriptures, then you applied the dietary laws to that.
I applied the rest of the laws.
You didn't like that application.
- So try again without picking or choosing to suit your whim.
- - Do you need help?

 

[RedTent]

Does God expect the Jews to stop Jewish rituals when they know Jesus?

The jewish rituals were given because of transgression. The Lord Jesus was given as a solution to this transgression.

If you are forgiven of your transgression and you know it wasn't by your work or rituals I don't know why you would go back to practicing the work and rituals that didn't do anything to forgive you of your transgressions.

I would think you would desire this New Way you were shown through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Of course the rituals were given because of transgression. If you told your child to tie a string around his finger to remember to do something necessary, then you would do that because he sometimes forgot. The child wouldn't think of coming to you to say he tied the string, what more do you want? You are saying it is wrong to tie the string, and I am saying that if you let the string lead you it is very beneficial. As it is, no one is even attempting what the string is to remind us to do.

God says to be pure in thought word and deed. Who in our church is carefully doing that hour by hour? God says to use food as a reminder, keep that clean, too. Paul says you don't have to do the food part. I am saying it would be beneficial.

We know the basic is to accept Christ and what he does for us. God does not tell the unsaved what to do.

 

[RedTent]

But love is love. Do that and you fulfill all.

If a child on the street is making up lies that aren't harming anyone, if he is wearing clothes to advertise that he is sexually available, if he snitches an apple from the grocery, are we to tell him the law is love so it is OK?

 

[RickShafer]

If a child on the street is making up lies that aren't harming anyone, if he is wearing clothes to advertise that he is sexually available, if he snitches an apple from the grocery, are we to tell him the law is love so it is OK?

If an adult-(grown to full maturity), holds to types and shadows as fulfilling the law that only the Messiah could(and did), are we to correct them?

 

[RedTent]

If an adult-(grown to full maturity), holds to types and shadows as fulfilling the law that only the Messiah could(and did), are we to correct them?

A shadow is an outline of something without the details filled in vividly. So you would be saying holding to only the law incompletely. For instance in the case of murder. The shadow said don't murder, Christ said not only don't murder drawing blood as in the shadow, but as in the completed don't even say you fool.

 

[Hizikyah]

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the llove of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

1 Yahchanan 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the ftransgression of the Law."

 

[RickShafer]

A shadow is an outline of something without the details filled in vividly. So you would be saying holding to only the law incompletely. For instance in the case of murder. The shadow said don't murder, Christ said not only don't murder drawing blood as in the shadow, but as in the completed don't even say you fool.

So Jesus fulfilled the law then.
He made it perfect is what you are saying. (I agree)

 

[RickShafer]

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the llove of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

1 Yahchanan 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the ftransgression of the Law."

So keep it up.
By all means, keep it up.
If we were able to keep the law, Jesus' death is an example.
Why can't one live perfectly? Any reasons found in scripture?
What did Paul say about all being dead in trespasses and sins? What does the whole law point towards? (Pentateuch)
And if we were able to fulfill the law on our own why did the Holy Spirit write through Paul that some were predestined?
(Ephesians 1 and 2)
And if we are able to keep the law: where is grace, and why comes faith?(Eph. 2:8,9) What is the necessity if we can be perfect?
How is it that salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast"?
Perfection is a work, no?