Difference between God and Jesus

[Quickfire]

So in order you to be right and for silas to be right, you would need to re-write scripture. Very good.

what next.

hello its your brother worm crawled out of the woodwork don't you ever get tired.

Just popped into say hello and now im going back down below.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So in order you to be right and for silas to be right, you would need to re-write scripture. Very good.
what next.

Just for your information, here's a literal translation of 1 John 5:20. It paints a different picture than either the KJV or LEB by stating that we are in the true GOD by virtue of being in his son. The KJV and LEB make it look like Jesus is the one true GOD.

Yet we know that the son of GOD is come and has given to us an understanding that we may know the true one (the father), and we are in the true one (the father) in his son Jesus Christ. This one (the father) is the true GOD and eternal life. (literal translation)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 (LEB)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 (KJV)


​

 

[silas42]

Perhaps you are right but, when he kept pushing Phil demanding and answer to his question, I simply turned the question around on him and he ignored me. I asked him three time and he continued to ignore me. I figured what is good for him was good for me. If he does not like being treated that way then perhaps he should not treat others that way.

Phil wanted to discuss with me. Possibly it would not bother you if people refused to answer the questions you s;pent time [putting to them, I freely admit it exasperates me if they don't. However, when that happens I have learnt now to simply walk away

 

[silas42]

Yet we know that the son of GOD is come and has given to us an understanding that we may know the true one (the father), and we are in the true one (the father) in his son Jesus Christ. This one (the father) is the true GOD and eternal life. (literal translation)

​

Absolutely, and kinda what I was trying to show OLD Hermit, though I may have rushed my reply somewhat. John would not contradict the words he wrote in his Gospel, great translation

 

[silas42]

This was a subject that engulfed my days and nights for 3 years. I looked into Arianism and Athanasius and the Church politics of that time, and also prayed my butt off for some answers...This was, and is an extremely volatile subject, and I think it needs to be answered in terms of humility, meaning no human is going to find the answers to this, in this lifetime anyway...And if any of us knows Gods mind (witch we dont, other then in part) we all need to be praying to that man, but their was only one Christ, and its none of us...If you pull out all the verses in scripture that lean toward one side of the argument, and all the verses that lean toward the other, you end up with 2 doctrines that are both backed by scripture...Now what? We can say compiling verse is a devicive way to bolster an argument, but what else can you do? other then to humble ourselves to the fact that mans interpitations of Gods Mind are just plain childish at best...Thats why Christ point us away from doctrine through His assault on the jewish scholars of his time, and points us to Humility...I believe He's saying to find our place as little children, and learn how to be Humble...We all have the right to embrace Christ in the manner He puts before us. He shows me one thing through my life experience and shows you another...Id like to know what He showed you! but how can I if I am to wrapped up in my own reflection, and yielding to my own knowledge?...Just imagine christendom united under one umbrella of Humility...The world wouldn't stand a chance...Peace, no offense meant ...Great thread...

Great Post. I love what you write. I think you are a long way along the Christian walk, and where it matters most. Further than me, I admit. You obviously know the truth that matters most
God Bless
And please keep posting, I am blessed by reading your words

 

[silas42]

Hi silas42 I have heard many pasters and every single one of them teach that you have to believe that Jesus is God to be saved. Every Christian that I know believes this. HEknowsme did an excellent job in post #567 the verses that show him to be God.

Hi
I accept in Canada you may have found that to be the case. But in the UK, in over 40 years of going to church, I have never heard it stated from the pulpit, neither has a friend of mine who has been to as many churches as me and for as equally a long time

 

[silas42]

I think they are the same person. Otherwise we have two Lords, it would seem to me, and I don't believe for a second we have two Lords.

What do you think of this verse

On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name
Zech14:9

 

[phil36]

Just for your information, here's a literal translation of 1 John 5:20. It paints a different picture than either the KJV or LEB by stating that we are in the true GOD by virtue of being in his son. The KJV and LEB make it look like Jesus is the one true GOD.

Yet we know that the son of GOD is come and has given to us an understanding that we may know the true one (the father), and we are in the true one (the father) in his son Jesus Christ. This one (the father) is the true GOD and eternal life. (literal translation)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 (LEB)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 (KJV)


​

Hi herosefromthedead,

I replied a we minute ago..I just zoomed in on the last part of your post, I understand what you are saying.. I understand that we need to get to the point of what is 'God'. I also understand that while Jesus was on earth in human form he glorified he Father as the true God (but not as the Godhead).

Its at the point when we say scripture is ambiguous and say it should read something else, even though that may be correct and what it means - we need to tread very carefully in changing the words of scripture..to help our own meaning..even if the meaning is correct.

Anyhow, I apologise I did not take the time to read your post fully.its bee a long day

 

[silas42]

So in order you to be right and for silas to be right, you would need to re-write scripture. Very good.

what next.

Oh you are funny Phil, I think you have to rewrite scripture, not me

 

[resurrection33]

What do you think of this verse

On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name
Zech14:9

Yes, one Father in heaven.

 

[silas42]

hello its your brother worm crawled out of the woodwork don't you ever get tired.

Just popped into say hello and now im going back down below.

I think this worm should pop back as well, otherwise I may have to blush rather at what may be coming my way!
It might even give me nightmares

 

[phil36]

Hi
I accept in Canada you may have found that to be the case. But in the UK, in over 40 years of going to church, I have never heard it stated from the pulpit, neither has a friend of mine who has been to as many churches as me and for as equally a long time

Mmmm you have been going to church for over 40 years in the UK nd never heard that you must believe Jesus is God? I do not know what church you have been.. but it is certainly preached in the UK... alive and kicking

Its very uncanny that you write like someone who has been on here before, you say the same things, you have spoken to ministers who back you up... and have the same ideas about JESUS.

I am convinced you are the guy who once went under the nickname of 'livingbygrace' you even act the same. oh and he was eventually banned. Mind you could be wrong.. but....

 

[oldhermit]

Well I thought I'd drop by before I retire for the night, and I'm disappointed to say the least. Firstly those to whom the word came in the OT were referred to as god's, but Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

Psalms 82:6
1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

John 10:34
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone
34 You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said you are gods’?
35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), doyou say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

The first thing that needs to be understood is who God was speaking to in Ps. 82. He was not speaking to all men. In fact he was not even speaking to all of those of Israel. He was speaking to those who were appointed as judges over the people "YOU
are gods." So, this declaration is very limited in its scope. God's calling them gods is related not to their intrensic nature but to their appointed function as those who were responsible for giving the Law of God to the people. In the very next verse, God reminds them of their intrinsic nature, "you will die like mere mortals." These 'gods' were those who sat in the seat of Moses to whom God said, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh." Like Moses before Pharaoh, these judges stood before the people as gods to the people. As such, their function was to defend the weak and the fatherless, uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed, to rescue the weak and the needy, and deliver them from the hand of the wicked. They had abandoned this appointed function and had defended the unjust and shown partiality to the wicked. Of them God says, “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness. All of these charges are contrary to the intrensic nature of God. Since God cannot defy his own nature we know that the term gods then defines not their nature but their function. For this reason, God says he will render
judgement among these gods, verse one.

In John 10 we find Jesus being accused of blasphemy because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” The Jews understood the implication of Jesus statement. They did not misunderstand it. When they threatened Jesus with stoning, Jesus reminded them of the 82 Psalm. Apparently they had properly understood the Psalm and did not equate being called gods as a declaration of man's equality with God. They knew to whom this Psalm was directed. "He called them gods, to whom the word of God came." They knew this was talking about those who were charged with giving the Law of God to them. Yet, now, Jesus is himself sanctified and sent into the world by the Father to impart the word of God again to the people - this is the exact same function that was given to the judges yet, when Jesus calls himself the Son of God they want to stone him for it. Jesus is simply pointing out the loonacy of their reasoning.

I'm afraid you've ignored my question as to the Father confirming He is Christ's God, that is plainly written, and therefore you haven't replied to who is the God of the one true God.

I agree with this 100%

Regarding 1John 5:20 we know of course Christ has stated there is only one true God, the Father, so John would not contradict his own words in his Gospel. The references to 'true God' refers to the Father as can easily be read. God(the Father) is the true God(as Christ himself plainly stated) And the true God gives us eternal; life through His Son. The verse does not say Jesus is the one true God.

This is exactly what I am talking about. This is NOT what the Greek says. You are having to defy the language of the grammar to defend your argument.

ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.
In the Son of him Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and life eternal.

Jesus is the antecedent of οὗτός. The grammar could not possibly be clearer.

I am afraid you are not doing very well here, despite your earlier belligerence. Neither have you addressed my question and given me a scripture that plainly states we must believe Christ is the one true God to be saved, probably because there isn't one

We will get to this later. You can't even get a hold of this concept yet.

The rest of you statements were simply not worthy of response.

 

[silas42]

Mmmm you have been going to church for over 40 years in the UK nd never heard that you must believe Jesus is God? I do not know what church you have been.. but it is certainly preached in the UK... alive and kicking

...

I have been to Baptist, Pentecostal, C of E, and non denominational churches. Not one minister in any of them stated from the pulpit Christ was God Himself let alone stated you had to believe it to be a Christian. If you were not so consumed by your 'theologies' this would have to give you pause for thought. I have today given examples of others who have spent their lives in Trinbitarian churches in the UK, they are staggered by what people like you write and demand on here Phil
But like I said, if the ministers don't demand it from the pulpits, and these people don't have the time or inclination to make a god out of theological study, why would they believe what no minister preached/stated
Actually, in truth I find it hard to believe you didn't know ministers in the UK don't stand in the pulpits and tell their flock plainly you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. It appears you have little grasp of what is actually being preached(or not being preached in this case)
I'm telling you the truth, but I realise, as I have said many times, it is beyond you to accept it. Better to face the truth I'd say than to have blinkers on

 

[WeStand]

First off, Jesus doesn't mean much more than peter, bob, tom or whatever; its the name Christ that matters.

There are I don't know how many thousands of people that have the name Jesus as a common first name. If there is any significance to it, thats it right there; the King of the Common people.

The difference between Christ and God is that one is an entity/being; and the other is the mission that we are ALL on; Getting Over Death/Satan GOD. Satan/Death just happens to be an entity/being as well; and IS the only being by name, thus far, sentenced to perish.

This IS Deaths realm that we are in. That IS why EVERYTHING living thing supposedly dies; because when one believes that the living are dying, then they don't see beyond this realm of existence; and are falling for the Master Deceiver, Satan/Death.


EVERY living thing and being, are simply Passing through, or Over this realm. How can one know? Christ/Messiah IS the PassOver Lamb for ONE and ALL and PROVED! You can't kill me, i'm the gingerbread man (sorry, I couldn't resist) The Anointed ONE!

And then there is of course GOD ALMIGHTY; Yahaveh/Yahewah (not into debating The Holy Name) The ONE who planned the mission of Getting Over Death/Satan in and through the promise of, and deliverance of a Messiah/Christ/Saviour/etc..........................................

YAHAVEH'S Plan. GOD

Christ/Messiah the executer of that Plan and the ONLY way to Get Over Death, GOD NOW!

 

[silas42]

Psalms 82:6
1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

John 10:34
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone
34 You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said you are gods’?
35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), doyou say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

The first thing that needs to be understood is who God was speaking to in Ps. 82. He was not speaking to all men. In fact he was not even speaking to all of those of Israel. He was speaking to those who were appointed as judges over the people "YOU
are gods." So, this declaration is very limited in its scope. God's calling them gods is related not to their intrensic nature but to their appointed function as those who were responsible for giving the Law of God to the people. In the very next verse, God reminds them of their intrinsic nature, "you will die like mere mortals." These 'gods' were those who sat in the seat of Moses to whom God said, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh." Like Moses before Pharaoh, these judges stood before the people as gods to the people. As such, their function was to defend the weak and the fatherless, uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed, to rescue the weak and the needy, and deliver them from the hand of the wicked. They had abandoned this appointed function and had defended the unjust and shown partiality to the wicked. Of them God says, “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness. All of these charges are contrary to the intrensic nature of God. Since God cannot defy his own nature we know that the term gods then defines not their nature but their function. For this reason, God says he will render
judgement among these gods, verse one.

In John 10 we find Jesus being accused of blasphemy because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” The Jews understood the implication of Jesus statement. They did not misunderstand it. When they threatened Jesus with stoning, Jesus reminded them of the 82 Psalm. Apparently they had properly understood the Psalm and did not equate being called gods as a declaration of man's equality with God. They knew to whom this Psalm was directed. "He called them gods, to whom the word of God came." They knew this was talking about those who were charged with giving the Law of God to them. Yet, now, Jesus is himself sanctified and sent into the world by the Father to impart the word of God again to the people - this is the exact same function that was given to the judges yet, when Jesus calls himself the Son of God they want to stone him for it. Jesus is simply pointing out the loonacy of their reasoning.



I agree with this 100%


This is exactly what I am talking about. This is NOT what the Greek says. You are having to defy the language of the grammar to defend your argument.

ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.
In the Son of him Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and life eternal.

Jesus is the antecedent of οὗτός. The grammar could not possibly be clearer.



We will get to this later. You can't even get a hold of this concept yet.

The rest of you statements were simply not worthy of response.

I'm afraid we won't be getting to anything later. So far you have not answered simple questions(as Phil didn't)
The Father plainly states he is Christ's God. I only refer to this as you chose to bring forth the preceeding verse. It simply proves my point, thank you.
I am afraid your deep studying isn't helping you as far as I can see. You are just trying to do what Phil has, but I accept having studied more, change the plain scriptures to suit your personal theologies, and the theologies of those you follow
Truth be told(no offence to you, I know this is what you revel in doing) but I find this rather boring.
I have the plain text as to what must be believed to inherit eternal ;life, you have to try to go all round the houses with your theologies/doctrines to overturn it. This does not interest me frankly

Simply produce a verse of scripture that shows we must believe Christ to be the one true God to be a Christian, or this debate is over. Well it is anyway, because there isn't one is there

 

[phil36]

Referring to what God is, He is the supreme being, omniscient, omnipotent...the creator of all things.

This being, the supreme being, is one, yet three distinct persons. I

while each person in the Godhead has a distinct role, each is co equally God (supreme being, they share the same essence) and co eternal.

That's 'God'

Jesus, who shares this essence with the Father and Holy Spirit, also has a dual nature, for he is both a divine nature and human.

God is the supreme being. that's what 'God' means. we must NOT confuse this with the many adjectives added to the noun which describe certain aspects of God's nature.

Ultimatly God is 'the supreme being.

 

[Quickfire]

I have been to Baptist, Pentecostal, C of E, and non denominational churches. Not one minister in any of them stated from the pulpit Christ was God Himself let alone stated you had to believe it to be a Christian. If you were not so consumed by your 'theologies' this would have to give you pause for thought. I have today given examples of others who have spent their lives in Trinbitarian churches in the UK, they are staggered by what people like you write and demand on here Phil
But like I said, if the ministers don't demand it from the pulpits, and these people don't have the time or inclination to make a god out of theological study, why would they believe what no minister preached/stated
Actually, in truth I find it hard to believe you didn't know ministers in the UK don't stand in the pulpits and tell their flock plainly you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. It appears you have little grasp of what is actually being preached(or not being preached in this case)
I'm telling you the truth, but I realise, as I have said many times, it is beyond you to accept it. Better to face the truth I'd say than to have blinkers on

ear watch out for the crows, just a quick one different Christians have different gifts, i think its evangelical Christians that avenge that Jesus is God, but not you must believe Jesus is God to be saved,

 

[silas42]

ear watch out for the crows, just a quick one different Christians have different gifts, i think its evangelical Christians that avenge that Jesus is God, but not you must believe Jesus is God to be saved,

I have been to many Evangelical churches

I did hear once someone say a prayer from the pulpit, not a solemn prayer if you know what I mean, but he was praying out loud while the music played. He said
Thank you Father God for dying for us in his prayer. But the minister had never stated that from the pulpit
ACtually would that make him a oneness Pentecostal. This is too much for my simple brain.
But npo, I have never heard preached Christ is God Himself from the pulpit, and I have been to many Evangelical churches

I'm watching out for the vultures, sorry, I meant crows, slip of the fingers

 

[oldhermit]

Simply produce a verse of scripture that shows we must believe Christ to be the one true God to be a Christian, or this debate is over. Well it is anyway, because there isn't one is there

It is quite clear from John 1:1-14 that the Word is not a thing but a person of God who places himself within the confines of the flesh.

There can be no stronger passage confirming the deity of Jesus than John 1:1. Simply diagraming the sentance renders this fact
incortavertable. θεὸς is the predicate nomnative that defines the subject λόγος. THE WORD WAS GOD!
What ever else one may or may not understand about Jesus, it is undeniably confirmed by John that HE is the Word who was from the beginning, He is the Word who was with God, HE is the Word who is the Creator of the world, HE is the Word who became flesh, HE is the Word who explained God to man, and He is the Word who IS GOD.

As to whether or not the Word is a person rather than just the speech, divine utterance, or analogy is laid to rest in verse 2. ουτος
ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον.

The ουτος is masculine gender - He or this one. If the λόγος was simply an abstract it would have to read τοῦτο rather than ουτος.

Through out the entire text of John 1 the personal pronoun is repeatedly applied to the Word. He is never referred to as 'it'. The Word is the Subject. Notice:

Verse 2. οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ - HE was in the beginning.
V.3 - πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο - all things through HIM came into being.
V.3 - χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἓν ὃ γέγονεν - Through HIM came into being nothing that came into being.
V.4 - ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, - In HIM life was.
V.10 - ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν - In the world HE was
V.10 - καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο - And the world through HIM was made or came into being.
V.10 - καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω. - And the world HIM not knew.
V.11 - εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν - To the own HE came
V.11 - καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον. - And the own HIM not received.
V.12 - ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτὸν - As many as however received HIM.
V.12 - τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αυτοῦ, - To those that believe on the name of HIM.
V,14 - καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, - And we beheld the glory of HIM[/QUOTE]

"He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

What were they to believe about Jesus in order to become children of God? EVERY THING THAT JOHN HAS JUST SAID ABOUT JESUS. This is everything that you deny about Jesus. Which category of verses 11 and 12 do you think this places you?

I have noticed that when someone cannot answer the issue of an argument, one of the first things they do is attack the education level of the other person.