atheists

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Aug 25, 2013
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CoooCaw said:
as for a missing link; i am still waiting, I am hoping you will bring up the subject of lucy

your serve
Hi CoooCaw, sorry to keep you waiting, but I need to say a couple of things as a preamble.

First, the phrase 'missing link' has fallen out of use as it leads to an erroneous understanding of evolution. By way of explanation I recently heard about a woman who made a photographic record of her child, taking a picture a day for a number of years. She then assembled the images using an photo editing program and put them together as in a film strip. The result, I heard, was quite spectacular. In a matter of a minute or so the child matures before our eyes.

Now let's imagine that we randomly pull one image of the child and examine it. Would you be better to describe the picture as a missing link or as an intermediate stage in the child's development? Which description is the more accurate?

Now as a thought experiment let's say for a moment that evolution is true. Start with a living person and trace that lineage back and by magic let's collect a photo record of each of that person's male ancestors going back to the beginning of life on Earth (and remember, we are assuming evolution is true). If we then assembled the images in the form of a film strip and watched them run through we could see a lower life form transforming into a man. If then we were to pull a single image of that organism and examine it would we be looking at a missing link or at an intermediate form?

Creationists often jest about crock-a-ducks but my point is that they seem to think that an evolutionary jump takes place in which one form of animal miraculously gives birth to an animal very different from the parent stock. Anti-evolutionists speak of missing links, that point at which they imagine a new species is supposed to have evolved. I hope by my thought experiment I have made clear that evolution is seen by evolutionists to produce intermediate forms, not sudden transformations.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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You are right. The Apostles met Jesus who is God and showed them. They told us this and I BELIEVE them. I wasn't there, and neither were you. We don't know, but we TRULY BELIEVE! I BELIEVE everything the Bible tells me. My faith leads me to BELIEVE all this through an experience I had with Christ. And about the shoe box thing, I meant people need to get out of their secure, self righteous little worlds and understand why others believe what they do, instead of ridiculing them. Because until people do that, then they won't know where to start in sharing the revelation that God gave us in a way that non-believers will understand. We're all adults here. Let's not kid ourselves.
You say, " My faith leads me to BELIEVE all this through an experience I had with Christ." Well seems to me if you have had and experience with Christ, then It can no longer be uncertainty, maybe to others, but certainly not to you. Yes? As for the rest of your statements, I agree 100%, we aren't here to push people away.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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CoooCaw said:
as for a missing link; i am still waiting, I am hoping you will bring up the subject of lucy
I need to ask you something CoooCaw before we can talk about missing links, or more properly intermediate forms. In the past I have had this same discussion with other anti-evolutionists, but run into something of a roadblock. Every time I present an intermediate form the person I am debating argues that my example is simply another kind of animal formed by special creation, not a missing link at all. Before we begin I will need you to tell me how you are going to recognize an intermediate form when you see one. How will you know when what I am presenting you with is an actual intermediate evolutionary stage and not an act of special creation?
 
Jul 25, 2013
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Then you would agree that the following statement is also true of yourself: "In the words of C.G. Jung, ‘I do not believe, I know.’ "

Directline, I suspect that many atheists reserve a place for a little doubt as to their certainty regarding God's non-existence, but I also know that many believers also have a kernel of doubt. Not all share the certitude exhibited by yourself and Carl Jung.

Addendum: the page number in my above post should read 50, not 100.
I know of God to exist and I believe in God as my creator and Savior. Believers only have a kernel of doubt as to a weaker faith as opposed to a strong faith in what God can do for us, when we get side tracked in our own failing ambitions, but we Certainly believe God exists. Everyone does. This talk of God in our world is so big and that just proves there must be something to His existence. It's actually the biggest talked about thing on this planet. You can lie to yourself and others, but you can't lie to God.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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So-called Christians may believe in/accept macro-evolution,
but in order to do that, they must reject the Bible, at least in part.
So by rejecting any of the Bible, how are they Christians?
Now that is just silly. Evolutionists are scientists and God is a scientist, in fact a perfect scientist. Christians believe in evolution, why shouldn't we when we see so many proofs.

The difference is we believe in God and science and see how His word fits the two together but others only want to choose to believe in science without God, even though they know and are slowly learning to choose God and science. I feel sad when I see a person walking around looking at the most he has become which is so limited in so many ways, and while he is happy with life he has no real joy. He is missing something inside and is searching for it for completeness and true fulfilling joy. Man looks down on himself when he sees the highest possible reality is more than he is. We Christians look up and see that highest possible reality as something we have.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Evolutionists are scientists and God is a scientist, in fact a perfect scientist.
I am curious. You take the view that God is a scientist? So you don't believe God would merely say the words, 'Let there be light', and there was light. You believe he did something technological and created light? If God is a scientist then he is Being that wields extremely advanced technology to create worlds. Is this what you mean?
 
Aug 5, 2013
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and the "facts" of evolution are constantly evolving.. old theorys tossed out, new theories are born, then those are tossed out and the cycle continues.

but 150 years, thats cute. christianity has been here for a couple thousand.
Good science includes change because it is not dogmatic. Typically this change involves more accurate information. For a thought experiment, try measuring the distance from where you are right now to an object that you can see. Then use a small object (like a shoe or watchband) to measure the distance. Then measure with an actual measuring implement, such as a tape measure. Each of these measurements are likely to change, but that doesn't prove that any of them were "wrong"... with more information, you simply became more accurate. As we gather more data, theories like evolution change in small ways towards becoming more accurate, but the change doesn't imply that any past version of the theory was "wrong" or misguided -- they were based on the best information available at the time.

Evolution's age doesn't imply anything about its accuracy any more than Christianity's age does. Islam is nearly as old as Christianity, but that doesn't mean you agree that this implies that Muslims are right. The internet is relatively new, but I doubt that you disagree with people's claims about the internet simply because such claims haven't been believed for long.
 
Aug 5, 2013
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I am curious. You take the view that God is a scientist? So you don't believe God would merely say the words, 'Let there be light', and there was light. You believe he did something technological and created light? If God is a scientist then he is Being that wields extremely advanced technology to create worlds. Is this what you mean?
Scientists are not defined by the methods with which they act -- if you could speak the universe into existence, you would not be "unscientific" for doing so. However, you certainly wouldn't prompt men to write that Adam and Eve were the first humans made from dust and a rib (respectively) if they were really made by the process of evolution. Scientists value information and work towards the general public knowing things. The bible doesn't reflect this at all. For example, Luke 11:37-54 tells the story of Jesus and his disciples being rebuked for eating with unwashed hands. While this would be the perfect opportunity for Jesus to fill the world in on "germs" and "proper hygiene", instead he makes an argument for why it's okay to eat with dirty hands, leaving the real scientists of the world to inform the public of these dangers instead.

Basically, I'm agreeing with you that it's silly to call god "a perfect scientist", but I don't agree with your reasoning about why it's silly.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
lucy has been represented as half way between ape and man


Hi CoooCaw, sorry to keep you waiting, but I need to say a couple of things as a preamble.

First, the phrase 'missing link' has fallen out of use as it leads to an erroneous understanding of evolution. By way of explanation I recently heard about a woman who made a photographic record of her child, taking a picture a day for a number of years. She then assembled the images using an photo editing program and put them together as in a film strip. The result, I heard, was quite spectacular. In a matter of a minute or so the child matures before our eyes.

Now let's imagine that we randomly pull one image of the child and examine it. Would you be better to describe the picture as a missing link or as an intermediate stage in the child's development? Which description is the more accurate?

Now as a thought experiment let's say for a moment that evolution is true. Start with a living person and trace that lineage back and by magic let's collect a photo record of each of that person's male ancestors going back to the beginning of life on Earth (and remember, we are assuming evolution is true). If we then assembled the images in the form of a film strip and watched them run through we could see a lower life form transforming into a man. If then we were to pull a single image of that organism and examine it would we be looking at a missing link or at an intermediate form?

Creationists often jest about crock-a-ducks but my point is that they seem to think that an evolutionary jump takes place in which one form of animal miraculously gives birth to an animal very different from the parent stock. Anti-evolutionists speak of missing links, that point at which they imagine a new species is supposed to have evolved. I hope by my thought experiment I have made clear that evolution is seen by evolutionists to produce intermediate forms, not sudden transformations.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
I need to ask you something CoooCaw before we can talk about missing links, or more properly intermediate forms. In the past I have had this same discussion with other anti-evolutionists, but run into something of a roadblock. Every time I present an intermediate form the person I am debating argues that my example is simply another kind of animal formed by special creation, not a missing link at all. Before we begin I will need you to tell me how you are going to recognize an intermediate form when you see one. How will you know when what I am presenting you with is an actual intermediate evolutionary stage and not an act of special creation?
the simple truth is if the earth is really old we should be knee deep in gradually changing intermediate forms

some of which are say a combination of man and ape, or ape and possum
 
B

Bryancampbell

Guest
Someone I think once told me how do I explain how monkeys have thumbs just like humans, to prove evolution....then I realized koalas have thumbs, does that make us related to them? I am most definite everything is their own creature by God's hand.
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
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If atheists don't believe in God, then why do they get mad at Him?
If atheists don't think He is real, then why do they blame him for everything?
If people can't tolerate other religious views other than their own, why do they hold to a position thats high in their own belief?
If people originated with or from monkeys, why then isn't it fully proven to be not a theory?
Why do they call it a theory, but still teach it through books and school?
I don't understand???????
It's pretty simple really brother Bryancanpbell

Those that follow the World

2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Belivers in Christ

John 14:17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.


God bless
 
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Footie03

Guest
Remember in Scripture where it says.... John 12:37-40
He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes nor understand with their hearts, nor turn - and I would heal them.
Remember that God gave the Prince of the world (Satan) authority, he is not weak, he has power on earth and that's why we must be in Christ, who is our strength and Salvation. Understanding is also a gift, Feel blessed that you who believe have some of it. Biker Dave
 
Aug 24, 2013
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I can quote from fictional books too!

“The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Equally as meaningless, I'm sure you'll agree
 
Jul 27, 2011
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The only people that can be convinced by an atheist is, those that already belong to satan. God's people won't be convinced, it isn't possible. To the atheist that comes for debate, i hope you learn to know Jesus as your King, Lord, and Savior.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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lucy has been represented as half way between ape and man
Exactly half, CoooCaw, or one third, or three eights, or some other fraction?

I don't think I have ever seen the claim that Lucy is half way to being human. Lucy was an ape, but most importantly she was a bipedal ape.

If evolution is true then somewhere in our ancestry humans have a bipedal ape as an ancestor. Do you accept this proposition? I am not asking you to say evolution is true I am asking you recognize the evolutionist claim that if evolution is true then a bipedal ape like Lucy is somewhere in our ancestry?
 
S

Sanashankar

Guest
If atheists don't believe in God, then why do they get mad at Him?
If atheists don't think He is real, then why do they blame him for everything?
If people can't tolerate other religious views other than their own, why do they hold to a position thats high in their own belief?
If people originated with or from monkeys, why then isn't it fully proven to be not a theory?
Why do they call it a theory, but still teach it through books and school?
I don't understand???????
You ask them all thee, they will not answer. they will conclude they are not "atheists" but "agnostic". I always think what joy will be there for an atheist, when his wife gives birth to a child. We wud praise God, thank God and admire the beautiful creation of God. What wud they think??? "Descendant of a Beautiful Monkey"????
 
Aug 24, 2013
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You ask them all thee, they will not answer. they will conclude they are not "atheists" but "agnostic". I always think what joy will be there for an atheist, when his wife gives birth to a child. We wud praise God, thank God and admire the beautiful creation of God. What wud they think??? "Descendant of a Beautiful Monkey"????
Lol no. Just because every aspect of your life revolves around God, doesn't mean the atheists life revolves around science and evolution.

When by boy was born it was an amazing experience. Neither religious nor scientific.
 
Aug 24, 2013
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Plus, attributing every wonder to
God kind of deflates the experience.

No longer can you look upon something with wonder and amazement... Just "oh, god did it"
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Someone I think once told me how do I explain how monkeys have thumbs just like humans, to prove evolution....then I realized koalas have thumbs, does that make us related to them? I am most definite everything is their own creature by God's hand.
Evolutionary biologists don't make the claim that possession of a trait is proof of human ancestry.

If, for example, animal life exists on other worlds beyond our solar system I would be very surprised if some of them did not have eyes, legs, and perhaps even thumbs. Evolutionary development favors genes that produce traits beneficial to the organism. Traits can evolve independently so the fact the eagles have eyes, and koalas have thumbs, does not mean we evolved from the ancestors of eagles or koalas.

That said, if evolution is true, then according to the theory our ape ancestors would themselves have evolved from a monkey-like ancestor with thumbs.

Here is something to consider. Humans do not have tails, and neither do apes, but according to evolutionary theory our ape ancestors would have evolved from some monkey-like ancestor with a tail. According to evolutionary theory we should still possess in our genetic make-up the mechanism to grow a tail. In fact we have such a gene but it is switched off, nonetheless, once in a great while there is a genetic mutation and that gene is turned back on. Sometimes children are born with tails that are complete with vertebrae and muscle structure that allow that tail to be wiggled.

Those who are aghast at the prospect that evolution might be true need to explain to evolutionists why God in his completely independent creation of Adam and Eve would have given them the genetic component to grow a tail.