atheists

[Cycel]

Yet many times it all just boils down to the fact that [atheists] don't like the idea of God holding them accountable for their own sins.

I've heard this claim from some Christians before, but honestly I've never met an atheist who thought that way. I have never met anyone who said they gave up believing in God so they could safely run-amok. I may be wrong, but I have my doubts that this scenario is a realistic reflection of atheist thinking.

It hurts their pride too much, so they try to bury the truth in search of an explaination that tickles their ears more. When they don't find it and are left with the reality that they have to answer for their own sins, sometimes their pride gets in the way and as a result they turn from God and lash out against Him and His followers.

Megaman, I just realized you are talking about Christians. You're asserting that when a Christian doesn't want to answer for their sins they decide to stop believing in God so they can live sinfully and not worry about the consequences.

There is a song by the Blood Sweat & Tears where the lyric runs: "I know there ain't no Heaven, but I pray their ain't no Hell." It's important to this discussion because it highlights the way many atheists feel, and it reflects the way I once felt. I no longer believed in God, but I was very apprehensive over the possibility I might be wrong. I was afraid of going to Hell. The fear of Hell is so drilled into us that it is often hard to shake. It may be that some atheists never get past the fear. Peter Hitchens, brother of the infamous Christopher Hitchens, returned to the Christian fold for that very reason (it's detailed in his book, The Rage Against God). Others have done the same. So, far from becoming atheists so they could sin freely, many atheist are in fact fearful Hell might be real. Such people don't give up their faith so they can sin.

If you have any interest in reading hundreds of atheist testimonies you can visit the Dawkins website. I read quite a few of them, and was struck by the great diversity of accounts. What I did notice is that evolution was only cited a few times as an important factor in loss of faith.

Tell that to all the atheists who say the Bible is false because it was written by man. If you get to use that nonsensical arguement, you can't cry foul when it's used against you.

I discussed this in post #243 and in an earlier post as well, but I'm happy to address it again. The argument that evolution is wrong because Darwin is a man strikes me as absurd. That's not an argument. The theory of evolution is only wrong if it fails to stand up to critical examination. The same is true of the Bible. It doesn't matter that it was written by men, if critical examination confirms it is inspired by God then that is what we go with.

Here's the catch: lots of religious folk think the whole Bible passes critical examination. Atheists on the other hand, taking the view there is no God, can't possibly think the pages are inspired. So what do we do? We go the route of critical examination. We do the same thing with the pages of scripture that we do with evolution. We examine both calmly. A response followed by a rebuttal, a tit-for-tat, a back and for until a conclusion is reached, or until a stalemate is offered.

 

[Kerry]

Hi Kerry, nice to chat with you.

Grey has the right of it. Evolutionary theory states that chimpanzees and humans had a common ancestor, chimps did not evolve into humans; but you do have a valid question. Why don't chimps evolve into human-like creatures?

I think the simple answer is they probably could given tens of millions of years. Another possibility is that they are doing so as we speak. That is not an evolutionary claim, it is a personal one made by myself. Unfortunately they are endangered and may only be around a few decades more in the wild.

There are two distinct populations of chimpanzees: the common chimp and the bonobo (you may already know this). Bonobos look very similar to the common chimpanzee but their behaviour is quite different, and remarkably human. They also have one important physical difference that make them appear more human-like in their behaviour. In bonobo females the angle of the vagina is midway between that of common chimp females and human females. Whereas male common chimps can only mount from the rear, male and female bonobos are just as likely to mount face-to-face. They have the option of doing it either way. When bonobo females evolved this physical trait I don’t know, but I would think this may show they are more closely related to humans than are the common chimps, or they evolved this trait more recently, and if so perhaps they are evolving into human-like creatures.

Their social structure is different from common chimps as well. The females bond in strong social groups that prevent the males from dominating them. Among common chimps an alpha male is in charge, but not among the bonobos. Females tighten these female to female social bonds by engaging sexual activity with on another. Common sexual activity among bonobos includes ‘French’ kissing and oral sex. I think I will stop there. Wikipedia has a good article on the bonobo chimpanzee, you might want to have a look at it.

I guess the next question is when will we evolve? What controls this evolution? Environment, Unknown forces, Available food, what? I mean no other species has evolved to the intelligence of a human being and what is a being? We have never reffered to animals lesser than us as beings. As a matter of a fact humans are the only ones to suggest evolution. After all these millions of years, we are the only one than have the power of speech. I know animals make sounds and somewhat communicate by them. But we are the only ones that articulate and put together words and sentences. What makes us so special. What environmental or food source caused us to be so intelligent as compared to our kin?

 

[Imperfect]

Yet many times it all just boils down to the fact that they don't like the idea of God holding them accountable for their own sins. It hurts their pride too much, so they try to bury the truth in search of an explaination that tickles their ears more. When they don't find it and are left with the reality that they have to answer for their own sins, sometimes their pride gets in the way and as a result they turn from God and lash out against Him and His followers.

this is true. i have a friend who is a atheist / agnostic and he even admitted that he has a hard time coming around to believing in God because "if" God is real then that means hell is real and "thats just too much to think about"... or something along those lines... and he lives a lifestyle that not Godly, which is why he doesnt like to believe it. he likes his freedom and a clear conscious. but hes coming around to trying to live better cuz the best conscious is lead by a clear / clean life. but still wont believe. its just something he doesnt want to "risk".. he fails to understand that whether he believes or not, it is what it is.

 

[Kerry]

Then, I have another question if y'all don't mind. If you go to another science, say geology, talking about tectonic plates ( may not have spelled that correctly) these plates are constantly renewing themselves at a rate of a 1/4" to 1" per annum. If you calculate that over, lets say 100 million years, that's 100 million inches thats 8333333.333333333 feet. So where do all these fossils come from? since these plates are constantly returning to the Earths mantle and returning producing all types of minerals and stones. Is science conflicting itself or they just don't agree?

 

[Cycel]

... when you assume he's doing it to "safeguard his own faith," as if you're so high and mighty that you could put his faith in some sort of jeopardy.

Why did he say, "I say people stop entertaining the atheist trolls and keep your faith strong", if in fact he didn't mean that faith could be better protected by not talking to atheists? If Phil comes back on and tells me I misunderstood his meaning, I will believe him. It won't be the first time I've misconstrued something. Or maybe he will tell you, you are wrong. We shall wait and see.

Oh, and I am not high and mighty at all. You are misunderstanding me. I you look back through my posts you will find I often hedge my statements with the phrase, “I think.” On the other hand, if you look back through the posts you will find many Christians typically make absolute statements about their faith, as if there was no room for other views – the very thing you’ve just accused atheists of. Just saying.

 

[Kerry]

Now we have scientist that says life originated on Mars and chunk got thrown off and landed on Earth and we are all Martians. I mean where does it end?

 

[Imperfect]

Now we have scientist that says life originated on Mars and chunk got thrown off and landed on Earth and we are all Martians. I mean where does it end?

just another chapter in the book of scientific theories.

if we are constantly evolving, then what are we going to evolve to? are we going to evolve toward being grey aliens and are grey aliens really futuristic humans helping us evolve to catch up?

that actually sounds like something science would say lol.

 

[Kerry]

It ends right here, like it or not, "In the beginning God". It is the only thing that makes since or is evolution more intelligent than we are? Whoever that is.

 

[Cycel]

Then, I have another question if y'all don't mind. If you go to another science, say geology, talking about tectonic plates ( may not have spelled that correctly) these plates are constantly renewing themselves at a rate of a 1/4" to 1" per annum. If you calculate that over, lets say 100 million years, that's 100 million inches thats 8333333.333333333 feet. So where do all these fossils come from? since these plates are constantly returning to the Earths mantle and returning producing all types of minerals and stones. Is science conflicting itself or they just don't agree?

Hi Kerry, the fossils are coming from the lighter continental crust material that floats on top and is pushed up high and dry by tectonic activity. The continental shelf that lies off the coast is submerged now, but in the future might find itself pushed up and that type of rock typically has a lot of fossils. I think what happens is that silt washed into the ocean by erosion, or from rivers, can quickly bury animal remains and so preserve them.

Geologists and others do talk about evidence of impacts beyond a certain age being subducted. They are well aware of that. Also, I am sure there are fossils on the deep ocean floor, but we don't really have access to them and the older ones eventually are subducted, as you pointed out.

 

[Imperfect]

Hi Kerry, the fossils are coming from the lighter continental crust material that floats on top and is pushed up high and dry by tectonic activity. The continental shelf that lies off the coast is submerged now, but in the future might find itself pushed up and that type of rock typically has a lot of fossils. I think what happens is that silt washed into the ocean by erosion, or from rivers, can quickly bury animal remains and so preserve them.

Geologists and others do talk about evidence of impacts beyond a certain age being subducted. They are well aware of that. Also, I am sure there are fossils on the deep ocean floor, but we don't really have access to them and the older ones eventually are subducted, as you pointed out.

what are we going to evolve to and why havnt we evolved at all since man has been walking... since we have ancient art on walls thats thousands of years old.. why havnt we even slightly evolved at all...

 

[Kerry]

Sup, Cycel

What age? shouldn't all these fossils from that time period be melted and regurgitated as minerals. The pressures and temperatures described by geologist don't adhere to flotation. I can see stratification, but only after these matters have been reduced to there basic elements as some elements are heavier than others. Then you take in account the violent nature of the mantle as water seeps in and creates super heated steam. That can and does cause volcanic reactions. Its much like cold and hot water. The cold water will fall to the bottom because it is more dense and the hot will reside on the surface. But if aerated they will mix as bubbles stirs it like you would a pot of soup.

 

[Cycel]

Now we have scientist that says life originated on Mars and chunk got thrown off and landed on Earth and we are all Martians. I mean where does it end?

I am familiar with that story. Apparently Mars rocks have been found on Earth (though I don't understand how anyone knows them to be from Mars). In any case, sometimes very large impacts occur on the inner planets. The blasts are occasionally so powerful surface rocks are hurled into orbit or even free of the planet that was struck. What's happened is that a meteor was found, that apparently was originally derived from Mars, and inside it was what some thought looked like the fossil of a micro-organism. I may be wrong, but I think later consensus determined this was not a fossil. Perhaps a few are suspicious that it is.

All of that being the case, the argument then runs that if a hardy organism was in a rock blasted from one planet to another, it might seed life on the planet it happened to land upon. If this is at all possible then it is equally true that if there is life on Mars it might have originated from Earth. The argument works both ways. If you see in the media that scientists say life on Earth came from Mars you can bet some news editor is just trying to grab headlines.

My guess is that while scientists might say they can't rule this scenario out, the majority probably think it unlikely.

 

[Cycel]

Sup, Cycel

What age? shouldn't all these fossils from that time period be melted and regurgitated as minerals. The pressures and temperatures described by geologist don't adhere to flotation. I can see stratification, but only after these matters have been reduced to there basic elements as some elements are heavier than others. Then you take in account the violent nature of the mantle as water seeps in and creates super heated steam. That can and does cause volcanic reactions. Its much like cold and hot water. The cold water will fall to the bottom because it is more dense and the hot will reside on the surface. But if aerated they will mix as bubbles stirs it like you would a pot of soup.

Again its time to pack it in so I will only give a quick reply.

No, uplift does not cause destruction of fossils. The uplift we are talking about is not volcanic.

 

[Cycel]

what are we going to evolve to and why havnt we evolved at all since man has been walking... since we have ancient art on walls thats thousands of years old.. why havnt we even slightly evolved at all...

What are we going to evolve into? No one knows. Evolutionary theory never make predictions of evolutionary outcome.

Oh, but we have evolved since man's been walking. This will have to wait till tomorrow.

 

[Kerry]

I have another question. Why did evolution choose us humans as the only ones to have pets. A lot of humans have pets, but I can't think of any other animal ( correct me if I'm wrong) that has pets. To most animals another animal is food. Some animals we look at are food for us, but others we regard as pets and have domesticated them. I can think of how some species of ants farm aphids, but thats farming and not a pet. They serve no purpose except companionship. Man evolution is smart ( I'm sorry I couldn't help myself, I'm not perfect, perhaps I should have a word with evolution about that, man I did it again sorry).

 

[VanIsland]

@Kerry

Hello Kerry. So you know, evolution deals with the way biological life has diversified and changed over time via reproduction, adaptation, etc. Evolution does not “choose” to do anything. Just like gravity does not choose which objects to pull down.

The domestication of animals was originally done for food and/or work. In this way animals (and farm crops for that matter) were selectively breed to benefit humans. If I recall correctly the domestication of dogs was originally a symbiotic relationship between humans and proto-dogs.

Tamer than average wolves were able to thrive by following humans to scavenge for food near camp fires and garbage dumps, which gave them an advantage over more shy individuals. The dogs fed on human food scraps, and humans found that dogs could warn them of approaching dangers, help with hunting, provide warmth, or supplement their food supply. As time went on they were selectively bread.

Symbiotic relationships & animals farming other animals have formed between various species over time.

 

[SweetSavour]

Have you guys been over to the dinosaur thread?
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...nosaur-fossils-validate-old-earth-theory.html

Old Earth "theory" LOL!

 

[AmmiAmmiel]

Atheists are fooling themselves,..

"because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:19-22 NKJV)

 

[Bre_Nat_Ter]

Exactly what I think! They all make it clear that they don't believe in God, but then they attack Him. If you truly don't believe in Him then why mess with something that doesn't exist? They make no sense sometimes, but I pray that God helps us all reach Him and changes us as He wishes.

 

[Kerry]

@Kerry

Hello Kerry. So you know, evolution deals with the way biological life has diversified and changed over time via reproduction, adaptation, etc. Evolution does not “choose” to do anything. Just like gravity does not choose which objects to pull down.

The domestication of animals was originally done for food and/or work. In this way animals (and farm crops for that matter) were selectively breed to benefit humans. If I recall correctly the domestication of dogs was originally a symbiotic relationship between humans and proto-dogs.

Tamer than average wolves were able to thrive by following humans to scavenge for food near camp fires and garbage dumps, which gave them an advantage over more shy individuals. The dogs fed on human food scraps, and humans found that dogs could warn them of approaching dangers, help with hunting, provide warmth, or supplement their food supply. As time went on they were selectively bread.

Symbiotic relationships & animals farming other animals have formed between various species over time.

Which species other than Man?