Do Dinosaur Fossils Validate the "Old Earth" Theory?

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Oct 12, 2012
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the dinosaur fossils found prove a young earth, special creation, and a worldwide flood
Sorry CoooCaw, I respectfully disagree, I personally cannot abide in a young earth theory. I do not believe in any of the accelerated Creation or decelerated creation non since. God has no need to try to fool us any more then we are already fooled. The place that we are given here is a time- space- matter world; ...it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, and the honor of kings to search the matter out.... This can only happen if we are given constant data from start to finish.
 
G

GRA

Guest
There is no 'assumption' involved.
Yes there is - and you are making it...

It is impossible to know ( with absolute certainty ) that the rate [ of something ] has always been the same without a true record of the rate of [ that something ] for all time in the existence of the universe.

Most people do not realize just how different things on earth were before the flood as compared to how they are now.

And, yes - I am reasoning this by faith - based on my understanding of what the scriptures say.

So then - we all make assumptions based on our own reasoning of various things.

Therefore - we should be careful to not make unfounded assumptions...

:)
 
Aug 22, 2013
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Another logical fallacy? Have you not learned anything here??

Yes, Christianity (Catholicism and Lutheranism) was the major religon in Germany and that proves Hitler was a Christian?

That is called guilt by association and it is a fallacy. "Steven King is a white man who writes horror stories. Therefore all white men write horror stories"

You are sinking to a new low. Take a logic class or a philosophy class. Your ignorance is showing.
But the Nazis, as a whole, weren't true Christians right? No True Scotsman....
 
Aug 22, 2013
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Yes you could, because you'd be looking at from a biblical point of view, creationism, rather then an evolutionist point of view which suggest everything came from nothing. If evolutionist just follow the evidence instead of their preconceived ideas, it would them to an intelligent designer, God!

I must admit, I love your arguments.
You're confusing evolution and the Big Bang. Evolution just explains the diversity of life not
how "everything came from nothing." As far as the Big Bang goes I think there was something
else before. Watch this if you have time. BBC What Happened Before the Big Bang
 
May 15, 2013
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But the Nazis, as a whole, weren't true Christians right? No True Scotsman....
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 22:39
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Matthew 5:44
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,


Anyone who practice this act is a true Christian.
 
G

GRA

Guest
Thanks for the threat. Let's get back to dinosaur bones.
Not a threat --- an admonition... ;)

Proverbs 4:

[SUP]4[/SUP] He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live. [SUP]5[/SUP] Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. [SUP]6[/SUP] Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. [SUP]7[/SUP] Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. [SUP]8[/SUP] Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. [SUP]9[/SUP] She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.


:)
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
Sorry CoooCaw, I respectfully disagree, I personally cannot abide in a young earth theory. I do not believe in any of the accelerated Creation or decelerated creation non since. God has no need to try to fool us any more then we are already fooled. The place that we are given here is a time- space- matter world; ...it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, and the honor of kings to search the matter out.... This can only happen if we are given constant data from start to finish.
the Bible predicts dinosaurs(creeping things and dragons)
small number of fossils(young earth)
discrete kinds, no intermediate species(bringing forth after their own kind)
dinosaur extinction (climate change post flood causing them to die out - or shrink)
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Yes there is - and you are making it...

It is impossible to know ( with absolute certainty ) that the rate [ of something ] has always been the same without a true record of the rate of [ that something ] for all time in the existence of the universe.

Most people do not realize just how different things on earth were before the flood as compared to how they are now.

And, yes - I am reasoning this by faith - based on my understanding of what the scriptures say.

So then - we all make assumptions based on our own reasoning of various things.

Therefore - we should be careful to not make unfounded assumptions...

:)

To look into the heavens is to literally look BACK in time.

As GR & SR predict, the speed of light has never changed. Thus, there is nothing to leave to assumption, as all the physically testable data matches the prediction....and that is for a billions of year old earth and Universe.

This is just the way that it is...
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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To look into the heavens is to literally look BACK in time.

As GR & SR predict, the speed of light has never changed. Thus, there is nothing to leave to assumption, as all the physically testable data matches the prediction....and that is for a billions of year old earth and Universe.

This is just the way that it is...
Yup, the bible actually says these things are fixed, they don't change:
Jeremiah 33:25
This is what the LORD says: If I do not keep My covenant with the day and with the night and fail to establish the fixed order of heaven and earth,
 
Jun 30, 2011
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Do fossils come with a date on them? Fossils can be produced quicker than they thought
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Relativity does not 'assume' anything....it predicts it.
SR & GR are the most proven principles in ALL of physics...we cannot ignore its predictions in favor of a personal world-view.
Relativity in no way "predicts" that the speed of light is constant -- it was developed because the solution to Maxwell's equations gives a constant c, and is completely built on this assumption! If anything you ought to be saying "Maxwells Equations prove that c is constant" -- which they don't.

suppose we exist on an infinitely large plane which is being curled into a tube at a rate much slower than our lifespan. we measure the interior angles of a triangle and they appear to within the accuracy we are able to measure to be 180*, so we say "the world is flat."
this does not prove that the world has always been flat or that the plane is not being curled into a tube, for 2 obvious reasons: 1) our measurements are inaccurate, limited by our finitely large measuring tools. 2) an observer sufficiently forward or backward in time would measure a convex or concave surface and if the rate of change of curvature were small enough compared to the scale of our lifespans, we would never see the change. In fact, even an abrupt change in curvature if occurring at a time well before or after we exist and take measurements might never be seen by us. All we can say with certainty is that in our local timescale the plane appears to have no curvature.
Does this mean we have no business measuring triangles? Of course not! and the results of our measurements are useful for all sorts of predictions on our own timescale. Does verifying the interior angular sum of other triangles prove the plane is not slowly curving? Of course not! It only verifies that the local curvature (where we measure other triangles) of the plane is consistent. It shows nothing about the far reaches of the plane or the topology of the plane over very large timescales.
Computationally verifying that a graph is a straight line on some interval [a,b] doesn't mean it's OK to extrapolate the statistical parameters to intervals outside the range of data collection. Zoom in on the graph of log(x) near the y axis and it looks very much like a vertical line. If you're sufficiently close to x = 0 you can safely assume it's a vertical line. This doesn't prove that log(x) is a vertical line! It only means our approximation *works* on certain scales.

Is relativity "proven" ? Do you know why we have a separate "general relativity" theory? Because special relativity does not work when we look at gravity. Do you know why we have the notion of "dark energy" and "dark matter" ? Because general relativity does not work when we look at galactic structure.
Relativity is great, consistent in all experiments we can perform, but the scope of the experiments we can perform is on a very very small time scale, and we can only say with certainty that c appears constant within the scale of our ability to measure it. When we look at the formation of galaxies according to current theories about the development of the universe however, we find many things that don't fit. General relativity is commonly held by the scientific community as a theory that is needs replacing -- do you know why people are still looking for a GUT? why "string theories" and "manifold theories" get studied? Because General Relativity is insufficient (under many assumptions such as the invariance of physical constants) to explain observed phenomena on a cosmological scale!

what you are arguing is like having a wristwatch and comparing it's ticking to another clock presumed to be accurate for a minute or two, finding that as closely as you can count, it appears to match up, and extrapolating from your 2 minutes of admittedly imperfect observations that the wristwatch is accurate at any infinitely small scale and has been and will be accurate for all eternity! Believing that takes a certain faith, don't you think? Especially when it is pointed out to you that the wristwatches calendar is several days off and it shows AM when it ought to read PM ( here i allude to the whole "dark energy" bandaid patched onto our understanding of cosmological framework ).

verifying relativity doesn't prove that any fundamental constant is invariant. It implies that on our time scales that the constancy of c is a safe assumption for which to do calculations. since you are arguing for an old universe, you ought to think a little deeper about very large time scales, the near absolute ignorance we have on a cosmological scale, and how dangerous it is to measure a molehill on earth and directly apply your measurements to Olympus Mons.

EDIT: spelling errors =D
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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To look into the heavens is to literally look BACK in time.
As GR & SR predict, the speed of light has never changed. Thus, there is nothing to leave to assumption, as all the physically testable data matches the prediction....and that is for a billions of year old earth and Universe.
GR also predicts that galaxies should never form, that their spiral shapes should not hold together, that they should be something like 90% less massive, that black holes should be far, far less common then they are observed to be.. etc.

Cosmologists cling to Hubble's "Law" like it is Gospel while we don't have any way to accurately account for interstellar dust. We observe that gravity can affect photons but we don't account for it when we measure redshift apart from 'lensing.' That is why we have theories like "hyperinflation" which requires an unknown and unobserved force to explain why a universe that is observed to be inconsistent with our predictions could come to be.

We assume a lot when we do cosmology -- for one thing, that the universe is topologically consistent, while at the same time some unknown and unobserved force caused a uniform expansion at an inconsistent rate at some completely un-observable time in the far distant past!

for the record i believe in a very old universe too, but one glaring problem in this whole framework is that time itself is not a measurable quantity -- it is a measure of the relative positions of all observable matter and energy -- and there is not any more way to be sure time is self-consistent than there is to prove God does or doesn't exist. It's simply an assumption we have to make or we wouldn't be able to do any science at all. Every observation we make is within an inertial frame consisting of the observable universe, and no verification of relativity - or any other theory - is validly extrapolated beyond the confines of our observational data. Your argument is very much like Freud studying only a handful of mental ward patients and declaring a full understanding of normal human psyche. Did we stop studying psychology after his time? Is all theoretical physics a waste of time because we already know all there is to know about the nature of the universe?


"God called the light 'day' and the darkness he called 'night.' And there was evening and there was morning -- the first day."

What is "evening" and what is "morning" before the sun and her planets were formed? 24 hours?? I somehow sincerely doubt it.
 
D

danschance

Guest
But the Nazis, as a whole, weren't true Christians right? No True Scotsman....
First off, why do you even bring this topic up as it is not germane to the stated topic.? I can only assume it is because you are trying, like Hitler to wipe out Christianity.

The "no true scotsman" does not apply here. Hitler clearly stated numerous times his hatred for Christianity which means he is not a Christian. He feigned being a Christian to accomplish political goals. After he accomplished his goals he moved to destroy Christianity. So if he once was a Christian, he certainly was not later--by his own admissions.

Let's go into you juvenile argument for a sec and see where it leads. You have pointed to Hitler and to child predator priests as being Catholics. Even you with your tiny hate filled heart must admit that the priest who rape children are in the minority. So once again you are guilty of the logical fallacy of guilt by association. If I said Stalin was an Atheist who killed 10 million people---4 million more than Hitler, by the way, Would that be a fair comparison of all atheists? Of course not.
This is why you childish hate filled argument is another case of a logical fallacy on your part. Your hatred is simply blinding you to logic as you continue to make logical fallacies, one right after the other.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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how did we go from cherry-picking science to cherry picking Hitler quotes? This side-discussion is pretty entertaining but also pretty fruitless!
 
Aug 22, 2013
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First off, why do you even bring this topic up as it is not germane to the stated topic.? I can only assume it is because you are trying, like Hitler to wipe out Christianity.

The "no true scotsman" does not apply here. Hitler clearly stated numerous times his hatred for Christianity which means he is not a Christian. He feigned being a Christian to accomplish political goals. After he accomplished his goals he moved to destroy Christianity. So if he once was a Christian, he certainly was not later--by his own admissions.

Let's go into you juvenile argument for a sec and see where it leads. You have pointed to Hitler and to child predator priests as being Catholics. Even you with your tiny hate filled heart must admit that the priest who rape children are in the minority. So once again you are guilty of the logical fallacy of guilt by association. If I said Stalin was an Atheist who killed 10 million people---4 million more than Hitler, by the way, Would that be a fair comparison of all atheists? Of course not.
This is why you childish hate filled argument is another case of a logical fallacy on your part. Your hatred is simply blinding you to logic as you continue to make logical fallacies, one right after the other.
Just forget about Hitler for a second. I've already posted this article once. It explains the
hypocrisy of Christianity and ties in the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
No True Scotsman: Embarrassing Christians are Still Christians. | Ask an Atheist

No True Scotsman - "This is one of the most common rationalizations religious folks toss out when one of their flock does something embarrassing or horrific."

"In short, you make a wide generalization about your own group — usually one you view as positive — and then when someone breaks that rule, you retroactively kick them out of your group. They just don’t count anymore."

The article has screenshots from Christians saying such things as "I say kill them all and let them see God"
"To all atheist die and go to hell haha If I could I'd shoot all of you in the head with a 12 gauge"
"Shoot them, at least we know where they're going, waste of oxygen"

Now you would say hey I'd never do that and those people aren't true Christians - hence the
No True Scotsman fallacy. It's all there in the article and explains it quite well.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Relativity in no way "predicts" that the speed of light is constant -- it was developed because the solution to Maxwell's equations gives a constant c, and is completely built on this assumption! If anything you ought to be saying "Maxwells Equations prove that c is constant" -- which they don't.

E = mc2 is the most proven principle in physics.

The speed of light has always remained constant.



suppose we exist on an infinitely large plane which is being curled into a tube at a rate much slower than our lifespan. we measure the interior angles of a triangle and they appear to within the accuracy we are able to measure to be 180*, so we say "the world is flat."
this does not prove that the world has always been flat or that the plane is not being curled into a tube, for 2 obvious reasons: 1) our measurements are inaccurate, limited by our finitely large measuring tools. 2) an observer sufficiently forward or backward in time would measure a convex or concave surface and if the rate of change of curvature were small enough compared to the scale of our lifespans, we would never see the change. In fact, even an abrupt change in curvature if occurring at a time well before or after we exist and take measurements might never be seen by us. All we can say with certainty is that in our local timescale the plane appears to have no curvature.
Does this mean we have no business measuring triangles? Of course not! and the results of our measurements are useful for all sorts of predictions on our own timescale. Does verifying the interior angular sum of other triangles prove the plane is not slowly curving? Of course not! It only verifies that the local curvature (where we measure other triangles) of the plane is consistent. It shows nothing about the far reaches of the plane or the topology of the plane over very large timescales.
Computationally verifying that a graph is a straight line on some interval [a,b] doesn't mean it's OK to extrapolate the statistical parameters to intervals outside the range of data collection. Zoom in on the graph of log(x) near the y axis and it looks very much like a vertical line. If you're sufficiently close to x = 0 you can safely assume it's a vertical line. This doesn't prove that log(x) is a vertical line! It only means our approximation *works* on certain scales.

Is relativity "proven" ? Do you know why we have a separate "general relativity" theory? Because special relativity does not work when we look at gravity. Do you know why we have the notion of "dark energy" and "dark matter" ? Because general relativity does not work when we look at galactic structure.
Relativity is great, consistent in all experiments we can perform, but the scope of the experiments we can perform is on a very very small time scale, and we can only say with certainty that c appears constant within the scale of our ability to measure it. When we look at the formation of galaxies according to current theories about the development of the universe however, we find many things that don't fit. General relativity is commonly held by the scientific community as a theory that is needs replacing -- do you know why people are still looking for a GUT? why "string theories" and "manifold theories" get studied? Because General Relativity is insufficient (under many assumptions such as the invariance of physical constants) to explain observed phenomena on a cosmological scale!

what you are arguing is like having a wristwatch and comparing it's ticking to another clock presumed to be accurate for a minute or two, finding that as closely as you can count, it appears to match up, and extrapolating from your 2 minutes of admittedly imperfect observations that the wristwatch is accurate at any infinitely small scale and has been and will be accurate for all eternity! Believing that takes a certain faith, don't you think? Especially when it is pointed out to you that the wristwatches calendar is several days off and it shows AM when it ought to read PM ( here i allude to the whole "dark energy" bandaid patched onto our understanding of cosmological framework ).

verifying relativity doesn't prove that any fundamental constant is invariant. It implies that on our time scales that the constancy of c is a safe assumption for which to do calculations. since you are arguing for an old universe, you ought to think a little deeper about very large time scales, the near absolute ignorance we have on a cosmological scale, and how dangerous it is to measure a molehill on earth and directly apply your measurements to Olympus Mons.

EDIT: spelling errors =D
Your conclusion is thus the same as mine...that SR & GR have never been disproven.

That being the case, their predictive power is the best that we have.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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GR also predicts that galaxies should never form, that their spiral shapes should not hold together, that they should be something like 90% less massive, that black holes should be far, far less common then they are observed to be.. etc.

Cosmologists cling to Hubble's "Law" like it is Gospel while we don't have any way to accurately account for interstellar dust. We observe that gravity can affect photons but we don't account for it when we measure redshift apart from 'lensing.' That is why we have theories like "hyperinflation" which requires an unknown and unobserved force to explain why a universe that is observed to be inconsistent with our predictions could come to be.

We assume a lot when we do cosmology -- for one thing, that the universe is topologically consistent, while at the same time some unknown and unobserved force caused a uniform expansion at an inconsistent rate at some completely un-observable time in the far distant past!

for the record i believe in a very old universe too, but one glaring problem in this whole framework is that time itself is not a measurable quantity -- it is a measure of the relative positions of all observable matter and energy -- and there is not any more way to be sure time is self-consistent than there is to prove God does or doesn't exist. It's simply an assumption we have to make or we wouldn't be able to do any science at all. Every observation we make is within an inertial frame consisting of the observable universe, and no verification of relativity - or any other theory - is validly extrapolated beyond the confines of our observational data. Your argument is very much like Freud studying only a handful of mental ward patients and declaring a full understanding of normal human psyche. Did we stop studying psychology after his time? Is all theoretical physics a waste of time because we already know all there is to know about the nature of the universe?


"God called the light 'day' and the darkness he called 'night.' And there was evening and there was morning -- the first day."

What is "evening" and what is "morning" before the sun and her planets were formed? 24 hours?? I somehow sincerely doubt it.

You cannot have evening & morning if the earth is not already rotating upon its axis while orbiting an already formed sun.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
E = mc2 is the most proven principle in physics.

The speed of light has always remained constant.


Your conclusion is thus the same as mine...that SR & GR have never been disproven.

That being the case, their predictive power is the best that we have.

um, NO. you're still completely mis-interpreting the theory thinking that it in any way proves the constancy of c, displaying your ignorance of the matter thinking that it isn't based on that assumption, and don't understand that General Relativity and our understanding of gravity is seriously flawed according to observational evidence.

look, if all we can measure is small angles, all i am saying is that it's fine to approximate sin(x) = x for the sake of rough calculation. this in no way means that sin(x) = x for all x, and just because the calculations we carry out for small angles using this approximation 'work out' when we don't need to be especially accurate doesn't mean sin(x) = x even for small angles.

the predictive power of assuming c is constant is fine for building electronics. There are BIG AND OBVIOUS PROBLEMS when you start looking at phenomena on the scale of galaxies or on the scale of quarks.

GR is shown to be wrong on those scales.

did both my posts just go right over your head or something? it doesn't seem like you even read the sentence after the one you highlighted.