atheists

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Aug 24, 2013
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I read a great post on here recently where someone said there is no solid evidence for ANY theory or belief.

If someone was ill an was being given multiple treatments for the same illness then they obviously havent found a cure otherwise theyd be only having ONE treatment.

The fact that there are multiple explanations for the universe
Shows we still haven't found the One and only rock solid reason.
 
Aug 24, 2013
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For the atheists of future generations over the thousands of years to come... They will continue to learn and discover alternative theories, ponder new ideas, look at things from different perspectives and the chance they are always on the cusp of a breakthrough.

The Christian will just continue believe the words of ancient primitive men who had a lesser understanding of the laws of nature than a 6 year old child.
 
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megaman125

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Again, we have this situation where rhetorical questions are posed in the hopes that, if answers aren't given, then we should just shrug our shoulders and ignore the evidence that we have for the sake of a theory without evidence (creationism). But if you really care about the answers (I contend that you don't), here are my own...

1. How did life originate? Evolution doesn't even try to answer this question. It's like if somebody described to you the orbits of the planets in our solar system and you reply "Oh yeah? If that's true then you must know how their orbits started!". It's a different subject.

2. How did DNA code originate? Again, it's a different subject, but at least this one has some good answers.

3. How could mutations... create the huge volumes of information in the DNA of living thing? How does a language like Latin spawn such huge differences, becoming the variety of "romance" languages that it did? A little bit at a time, over a long period of time.

4. Why is natural selection... taught as evolution? Like the last question, the way that this is posed attempts to inject false premises into the argument that scientists wouldn't agree with. The answer to this one is that natural selection (along with artificial selection) is the driving process behind evolution. The arguments made after the question again assumes (like questions #1 and #2) that evolution answers the question of where life came from... it doesn't. Evolution describes why life on this planet is diverse.

5. How did new biochemical pathways... originate? This is suggestive of Michael Behe's ideas that complicated things don't have structural support as they are being constructed, but we have countless examples that biologists have discovered. For a non-biological example, one could ask "How did Michaelangelo paint the Sistene Chapel ceiling? Could he fly?" Of course not -- he used scaffolding, which was later removed when it became unnecessary. Similar structures in organisms disappear over time, and our hindsight makes it difficult to believe that they were ever there because we don't see a need for them *now*.

6. Living things look like they were designed, so how do evolutionists know that they were not designed? The evidence doesn't demonstrate a designer. If it did, the current theory would include one. We have examples of things in nature that look designed but aren't, which means that the appearance of design isn't enough to prove a designer -- we ought to be skeptical and instead wait until we have evidence of a designer before positing that theory.



... I'm on my lunch break, and it looks like I just don't have time to get around to all of these (at least right now). But my main point is that just because you have a question that scientists can't answer (assuming that they actually can't answer it) doesn't mean that your answer is any better. Most of these questions have a false premise behind them (such as questions 1, 2, 7, and 8 that all misunderstand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis) or have claims inserted into them that scientists haven't claimed. I do want to address the one good question among them though, which is #14...

14. Why is evolution, a theory about history, taught as if it is the same as this operational science? Again, this makes the misunderstanding that evolution describes the beginning of life (it doesn't). But it also makes the assumption that evolution has stopped happening, which is not true nor has it ever been true. I can give you a real-life example of evolution in humans...

My daughter's mother had a bad hip for childbearing... the opening for escape was too small. My daughter had to be born via C-section, just like her mother. The fact that more and more children are being born through C-sections is evidence of evolution. There was a time when, if a child couldn't be born naturally, that child couldn't be born at all and thus would have no opportunity to pass on his or her genes (in other words, they were "selected" out of the gene pool). However, a change in our environment (the introduction of C-section surgery) allowed these children to be born, pass on their genes, and thus make such genetic variation a part of the human gene pool. It's not as if these people who can't birth naturally are "better" than others (in fact, you could argue that their genes are worse for survival) but rather they fit the environment to which they entered. Small changes in the environment cause small changes in gene pools, and these become part of what it means to be "human" (since we are made up of a variety, and any one characteristic is merely a piece of a bell curve rather than a universal characteristic... if such a characteristic were so different, that person or persons would no longer be considered "human"). Most of denial of evolution stems from a misunderstanding of what evolution is.
Oh look, it's all the same old predictable and typical responses, which btw, have already been considered and refuted on that very same site. Observe.

15 questions responses 1
15 questions responses 2
15 questions responses 3

But it's also quite easy for Athiests to deny what we Christians tell them. That's quite evident in this thread. They could post up hundreds of links explaining why WE might have it wrong. So does that mean that we should drop everything we believe?
Of course it's easy for them to deny something that they're trying to deny. All they have to do is plug their ears and refuse anything that doesn't match up with atheism. Anyone who wants to do that can do that, and it takes very minimal effort. (intellectually dishonest, but minimal effort)
 
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megaman125

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I read a great post on here recently where someone said there is no solid evidence for ANY theory or belief.

If someone was ill an was being given multiple treatments for the same illness then they obviously havent found a cure otherwise theyd be only having ONE treatment.

The fact that there are multiple explanations for the universe
Shows we still haven't found the One and only rock solid reason.
Maybe someday they'll catch up with what the Bible already has been saying for thousands of years.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Well, I would like thank all of you for the responses to my questions. I think that it has helped to equip me better. I know and realize that people believe what they believe and no one will change their mind (even christians disagree). Only the Holy Spirit can do that as He has to many atheist. I would like to say that I have no connection with the KKK. I only mentioned them to show that Jews were persecuted in America as well as around the world(they had a strong presence in the south in the 20's through the 60's). Being in the south, our churches have many former KKK members that have been saved and will hug a black person before any one else as God has changed their heart and life. It is amazing what God can do if given the opportunity. Yes we must allow Him as He will not override our freewill. The evidence of Israel is before you, some of you have attempted to explain away how they became a nation again as the bible said they would . No matter how it happened, don't you find amazing that thousands of years ago the bible said that it would happen and it did. None of you mentioned how the bible predicted Israel's destruction. I doubt that Rome read the scriptures and said "oh we must fulfill it". But for some, if truth slapped them in face, they would not receive. Just like Pharaoh, The Lord showed Himself to Pharaoh and yet he still rejected Him. Think its a story, When Joshua attacked the promised land, the people were terrified of them because they knew what God had done for them leaving Egypt. West Point Military Academy's curriculum is the study of Joshua. They don'y realize that He was guided by God.

Fish tanks have nothing to do with survival. Evolution is all about survival. Some people went to warmer climates, but not all, yet all of us wear clothes. Even the most remote tribes in the jungle cover their genitalia.

Thank you all. I pray that all come to the saving grace of Christ. I pray that America would return to its foundation and that is the Word of God.
 
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Kerry

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I leave you with Benjamin Franklin's speech to the constitutional convention.

Mr, President: The small progress we have made after four or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ayes, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which, having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution, now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all around Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.
In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of fights to illuminate our understanding?
In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for Divine protection Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity.
And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I Eve, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?
We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” [Psalm 127:1a] I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages.
And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to I chance, war and conquest. I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.
 
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danschance

Guest
If a person doesn't believe in the bible then you cant use the bible as evidence to prove something in the bible.
Brilliant logic, epic fail. LOL

I don't believe in evolution so why talk about evolution to me?

Or

"Your Honor, I do not believe in the laws of this state, so therefore they do not exist and I demand you bring these proceedings to an abrupt end as I don't believe in them either". Absurd, isn't it?

Too bad he got banned. I would love to shred this kind of reasoning.
 
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megaman125

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Brilliant logic, epic fail. LOL

I don't believe in evolution so why talk about evolution to me?

Or

"Your Honor, I do not believe in the laws of this state, so therefore they do not exist and I demand you bring these proceedings to an abrupt end as I don't believe in them either". Absurd, isn't it?

Too bad he got banned. I would love to shred this kind of reasoning.
Absurd indeed. Basically, they demand that we show them evidence the Bible is true without using evidence that shows the Bible is true. Of course, they cry foul if you ask for evidence for evolution without using any pro-evolution books/sites/links.

Well, the mods are doing a good job.
 
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danschance

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Absurd indeed. Basically, they demand that we show them evidence the Bible is true without using evidence that shows the Bible is true. Of course, they cry foul if you ask for evidence for evolution without using any pro-evolution books/sites/links.

Well, the mods are doing a good job.
The absurd part of his theory is that he won't accept evidence he doesn't subjectively believe in. That is like saying I don't believe in the US constitution, so it doesn't exist. Then in another posts he claims atheists occupy the high ground for being logical? That is hilarious.
 
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Grey

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No, not all global cultures wear clothes.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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The absurd part of his theory is that he won't accept evidence he doesn't subjectively believe in.
Dan, do creationists accept the evidence of evolution? I don't think they do. Why then would A Pebble Thrown's rejection of biblical evidence be considered absurd?

danschance said:
That is like saying I don't believe in the US constitution, so it doesn't exist.
Anyone can go and view the US constitution, so that is not really the best analogy.

Atheists know that the Bible exists. No one questions that. What they question are the statements the Bible makes about God and Jesus.


danschance said:
Then in another posts he claims atheists occupy the high ground for being logical? That is hilarious.
I saw an interview with an American theologian (or was he a philosopher?). I can't remember who this individual was, but he was a Christian. He made the statement that atheists have the better arguments. Now that is not a proof, it is simply an opinion. It does have to be backup, but so does the assertion that atheist arguments are hilarious. Such a statement really carries no more weight than the opposite claim that Christian arguments are hilarious.
 
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Aug 25, 2013
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Absurd indeed. Basically, they demand that we show them evidence the Bible is true without using evidence that shows the Bible is true.
It may look that way to you, but as one of them I see the position a little differently.

Let's say you have a biblical claim that during the great flood the waters covered the Earth to the top of the highest mountains. Creationists would take that as the proof. Atheists cry foul, but their point (my point), is that this may only be taken as evidence that the author of the text believed the claim. It is not proof that such a flood existed.

You might also have a passage that states Jesus is the son of God. The faithful perhaps would take this as evidence that Jesus is indeed what the passage claims, but atheists will say, 'Wait a minute, now. That is only evidence that the author of the text believed the claim. It is not proof of the divinity of Jesus.'

If you want to make claims about what the authors of scripture believed then of course you can use the Bible. What atheists object to, however, is that Christians will submit Paul's claims about Jesus as proof that Paul's words are factual; but, Paul's claims are really only Paul's personal beliefs about Jesus. His words are not proof that his beliefs are true. It doesn’t matter how sincerely Paul believes what he says. He might still be wrong.

Does my explanation make sense to you? Quote the Bible all you want, but I will ask you if the passage is proof of your claim, or whether it is only proof that the author of the text held the belief in question.
 
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Bryancampbell

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I heard they once found a giant ark on Mount Ararat. But if you need evidence to validate everything, why then have faith? Throughout my life I have experienced things that are unexplainable. But it is only foolish to those who don't believe because they will assume I'm crazy. When atheist want to see God, they must first realize He has revealed Himself.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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I heard they once found a giant ark on Mount Ararat. But if you need evidence to validate everything, why then have faith?
A Christian friend of mine told me, about 26 years ago, that Noah's Ark had been found on Mount Ararat, but no sooner had the discovery been made than the Soviets went in and removed all evidence. Sorry, but I require evidence that this story was not simply fabricated.

You know as well as I that all sorts of claims are made about all kinds of things, whether it be aliens, ghosts, Big Foot, or anything else. Surely you wouldn't argue that belief in these things should not be subject to critical thinking? Yet, in matters of Christianity you think that faith should be enough?

Bryancampbell said:
Throughout my life I have experienced things that are unexplainable. But it is only foolish to those who don't believe because they will assume I'm crazy.
I was once convinced that a friend and I had experienced the presence of a ghost. Now I think there is likely another explanation, but had I related my experience to any who believed in ghosts I am certain they would have taken it as further evidence for what they already believed.
 
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Bryancampbell

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A Christian friend of mine told me, about 26 years ago, that Noah's Ark had been found on Mount Ararat, but no sooner had the discovery been made than the Soviets went in and removed all evidence. Sorry, but I require evidence that this story was not simply fabricated.

You know as well as I that all sorts of claims are made about all kinds of things, whether it be aliens, ghosts, Big Foot, or anything else. Surely you wouldn't argue that belief in these things should not be subject to critical thinking? Yet, in matters of Christianity you think that faith should be enough?
Faith brings evidence, not the other way around. Evidence follows after faith. If a person wants to see God work in their life, they to first trust in Him before anything. The Lord said once to a group of religious leaders that a sign will not be given to a perverse generation because they asked for a sign to prove He is the Son of God, but He concluded that the only sign He would give is the resurrection of His life after His death.


I was once convinced that a friend and I had experienced the presence of a ghost. Now I think there is likely another explanation, but had I related my experience to any who believed in ghosts I am certain they would have taken it as further evidence for what they already believed.
Sorry friend, that's kind of far when it comes to evidence. A changed life is example of evidence. My life changed dramatically through the power of the Holy Spirit in me. That's more evidence than seeing fire fall out of the sky.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Evolution describes animals changing for survival.
Evolutionary theory does not claim that animals change so they can survive. The theory states that random changes sometimes increase survivability of a species that happen to evolve characteristics favourable to survival in a given habitat. Many other species simply become extinct.

Kerry said:
Pets serve no purpose other than companionship and have no part in survival. Yet, many humans have pets.
You have completely forgotten about the working breeds. The blind now use seeing eye dogs, but herders and farmers have used dogs to protect their domestic animals for thousands of years. You forget too that dogs are quite protective of members of their human family. Probably the earliest domesticated wolves provided protection for small bands of human foragers; and perhaps those humans who welcomed such ‘pets’ among them were more likely to survive and pass on their own genes.
 
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Bryancampbell said:
Sorry friend, that's kind of far when it comes to evidence. A changed life is example of evidence. My life changed dramatically through the power of the Holy Spirit in me. That's more evidence than seeing fire fall out of the sky.
I don't agree Bryan. If I see something that convinces me ghosts are real, and from that point forth in my life I am convinced of the existence of ghosts, my experience (no matter how real to me) is not evidence that ghosts are real -- at least not to anyone else but me.

I don't know what experience some have had that convinces them they were kidnapped by aliens, but regardless of how life changing the experience is for them, it can't possibly persuade me. I am still convinced that whatever it was they experienced they are simply misinterpreting the event; and unless you believe in alien abductions you will likely agree with me that their experience, however real to them, was not really a visitation from space. Life changing experiences do happen, but they are not proof that the interpretation of the experience is correct.

I must tell you that I too had a life changing experience (and I am not making this up just to prove a point. I really did have such an experience). Mine persuaded me, beyond all doubt, that God is not real. Is my life changing experience evidence that God is not real?
 
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megaman125

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It may look that way to you, but as one of them I see the position a little differently.

Let's say you have a biblical claim that during the great flood the waters covered the Earth to the top of the highest mountains. Creationists would take that as the proof. Atheists cry foul, but their point (my point), is that this may only be taken as evidence that the author of the text believed the claim. It is not proof that such a flood existed.

You might also have a passage that states Jesus is the son of God. The faithful perhaps would take this as evidence that Jesus is indeed what the passage claims, but atheists will say, 'Wait a minute, now. That is only evidence that the author of the text believed the claim. It is not proof of the divinity of Jesus.'

If you want to make claims about what the authors of scripture believed then of course you can use the Bible. What atheists object to, however, is that Christians will submit Paul's claims about Jesus as proof that Paul's words are factual; but, Paul's claims are really only Paul's personal beliefs about Jesus. His words are not proof that his beliefs are true. It doesn’t matter how sincerely Paul believes what he says. He might still be wrong.

Does my explanation make sense to you? Quote the Bible all you want, but I will ask you if the passage is proof of your claim, or whether it is only proof that the author of the text held the belief in question.
This is a just a, rather elegant, way of saying what most atheists say. "You're just quoting the Bible to prove the Bible." "There's nothing beyond the Bible as evidence for Christianity." These statements show one of three possible things.

1. You're willingly ignorant, thinking that's there nothing more than "here's the Bible, and that's all the evidence." Such a person refuses to acknowledge the things in the real world which VERIFY the text that's written in the Bible. I'd like to believe this doesn't describe you.

2. You're unresearched about the Christian point of view. Perhaps you honestly don't know what Christians use as evidence outside of the Bible, which points towards the text of the Bible being true. In which case, I would invite you to check out things like The Case for Christ, More than a Carpenter, and answersingenesis.org, where you can get a better understanding of the Christian view and go deeping than the typical stereotype atheists like to throw around about how there's no evidence to Christianity other than text written in the Bible. But given what I have seen from you, you seem like the type that is researched, and I could be wrong about this, but I don't think #2 applies to you. You're too smart to have not ever done any research for the Christian side.

3. You are researched about the Christian side but you choose to ignore it and misrepresent the Christian side with your whole "the Christians only evidence is the text and there's no evidence outside of the Bible's text." Now, if this were the case, the question would be why would you do this. And I can't see any intellectually honest reason for this. This leaves you with either a personal grudge against Christians or just anger towards God Himself, for whatever reason.
 
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Kerry

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I haven't forgot anything. What purpose does a hamster serve. Chimpanzees live in the warmest climates, they don't were clothes. They still have their protective hair and thick skin. They are not embarrassed by their nakedness. I have already been through this. Evolution say that we "migrated to warmer climates and had no need of protective hair or thick skin". The chimpanzee proves that theory wrong, They live in warm climates yet they retain their protective hair and thick skin.

Maybe you can describe Israel, no other atheist can. Describe how the bible said that Israel would be destroyed and that happened in 70 A.D. What your take on that. Then I present Ben Franklin, who requested to the founders of our constitution to seek God. No scientist can refute this evidence, only the hardness of your heart. God loves you and wants you to overcome the deception that you have believed. Evolution has provided not one link. They thought they came close, but They were astonished to find on one of the so called bones a name plate that said International harvester. A plow
 
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Kerry

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evolution is a lie that you have been deceived by. I know you want own up to it, because you don't want to be accountable to anyone and evolution provides that escape delusion-ally.