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danschance

Guest
Well, yes, I'd agree with that, but in my post – the one I think you are commenting on – I was countering the assumption that atheists really do believe in God, but are deceiving themselves into thinking we do not believe. Now if my assumption is off the mark I'd be happy for Fozi to come back and give me a different explanation.

Now here's the difference between myself and quite a number of Believers I've chatted with over the years: I will believe Fozi's explanation of why he thinks what he does. On the other hand, when I tell a good many Believers that I really don't believe in God they repeat, "Yes you do. You just don't know it."

It's very frustrating.

Fozi may have a theological explanation for why he is making the assumption that he is, and he perhaps hinted as much. Let me ask you this question. Do you think it is difficult for some Christians to get their heads around the fact that some people really do not believe in God? A few Christians do argue, after all, that there really is no such thing as an atheist.

My father used to say that there really was no such thing as a homosexual. They were just pretending, he said, or they were going through a phase. Homosexuality was something he just couldn't get his head around and I suspect many Christians are like that in regard atheists. What do you think?
We all see reality through the lens of our own paradigm. The good news for you and me is we are defined by other people's perceptions. I heard a man say "Truth is reality". I agree. Truth is reality without our "lens". I think this is a very human trait. I do it myself. I have judged people, not by skin color but still by their appearances. People who looked good looking, slim and well dressed, I would assume are good people. People who were fat, bald, toothless, etc, I would think they were less intelligent.

Then I met a man who tended to view everyone as important. He never judged people like I had. He caused me to re-evaluate my "lens". Old habits die hard (unfortunately) but I do my best to not be as superficial as I was. I have learned that the outside of a man has little to do with the inside of a man.

I believe that Atheists assume certain false things about Christians and vice versa. We tend to code our perceptions based on conclusions we made in the past. Even if those conclusions were flawed.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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Scientists seek the truth, and so they control for everything possible -- including bias. That doesn't mean that bias doesn't sway popular scientific consensus (such as it did against continental drift and the idea of man's evolutionary descendants coming from Africa), but there is an effort to remove it as much as possible. There is no anti-Christian bias, or you'd see scientists attempting to prove witchcraft and the New Age to be true, but the real bias is against supernatural events of any sort because they are outside of science... you can't link cause and effect if you can't measure the cause in any way.

Christian "scientists" have a clear motive and bias, and it always seems to be dismissed by the same people who accuse non-Christian scientists of the same. It's a double-standard. It doesn't surprise us that Christians always believe that they're proving the bible true, any more than Muslim scientists prove the truth of the Qur'an and Mormon scientists prove the truth of the Book of Mormon. But these "proofs" don't hold up without presuppositions -- again, we can't link cause and effect when the cause is unmeasurable.

And you don't understand this. You claim that you "asked the Christian God for proof" and "He gave it to [you]", and yet you don't offer it to me even though you clearly want to prove God to me. And so does God, supposedly, but He offers nothing either. Do you know that correlation doesn't prove causation? If you ask God for something, and you get it, that doesn't prove that God gave it to you. Just because one event follows another, that doesn't mean that the first event caused the other. Is that your view of science? No wonder you don't value it highly.

Edit: When I posted... it seems CC posted some words without the space in between just a warning.

There is a little problem in what you’re said and a contradiction…

So, in the middle of your post you said, “the real bias is against supernatural events of any sort because they are outside of science.” Youknow I can probably write an essay.. maybe even a book on what I’m going totell you but I’ll try to sum it up.

These are your words,”Scientists seek the truth, and so theycontrol for everything possible - - including bias”

So, firstly you tell me that they control for EVERYTHINGpossible. Aren’t supernatural events possible? Yes of course supernaturalevents are possible. You basically narrow down all possibilities within naturalcauses. That kind of thinking is NOT controlling for EVERYTHING possible. Grantedbeing open to all possibilities can be problematic in that we may be driftingoff into too many directions. But, considering the Bible does have merit, even amongthe secular, historically and archeologically. I think covering the possibilityof God’s "fingerprints" (markings) should be included in your definition of “everything.”

Next you said scientist control for everything…“including bias” and then in the same paragraph you admit that there is a real bias outthere… “but the real bias is against supernatural events of any sort becausethey are outside of science…” I think we can call that a contradiction. Youknow part of me wants take advantage of this opportunity to maybe give a “few low blows.” And I would too but I won't because of my Christian convictions tell me notto. And that leads me to my next point…

Christians, may possibly have the strongest convictions in theworld for honesty. We believe that even telling one lie means you deserve hell. Amongthe major religions, there is nothing in comparison to those values. How mucheasier is it to lie without that kind of value? Someone who doesn’t believe inGod doesn’t have that kind of an influence. This is to support my earlier pointabout being cautious with the scientific, secular, and atheistic communitybecause we know that the vast majority of these communities don’t believe inGod. Would you agree that Christians would have more reason to tell the truthwhile these other communities would more easily lie?

And note, this is not prejudicism since this is based onreasoning. What I amtelling you is good judgment and a wise approach to the “cultures” that arebeing talked about.

Next, you said, ”you can’t link cause and effect if you can’tmeasure the cause in any way.” You know, this statement is up for investigation.Granted, God as a concept is an extraordinary idea. When I first thought abouthim, I immediately realized as you do … that we will never be able to “measure”him or fully understand him. Maybe it’s not the wisest approach to find the God“element” and try to put God in a test tube or in a “controlled” environment totest and experiment God as a cause and effect. That’s silly. God, the king ofthe universe wouldn’t be subjected to that kind of treatment unless… he him self wanted to be such a state. Actually, Jesus Christ would be a prime example ofthat. Nevertheless, I think there is a way that the scientific community could investigateGod. The scientific community can aide historians and archaeologists in thesearch for God’s “fingerprints” by testing anything scientific (like burnt buildings) regarding placesor even people in the Bible. And such cooperation has happened… The cities of Sodomand Gomorrah are in the Bible. Its recorded that God supposedly destroyed thesetwo cities with fire because of the great sin within these cities. Today, weknow these cities exist and as it is written, these cities were found in a burnedstate. And through historical analysis, there is evidence for God’s “fingerprints.”So, the scientific community can contribute to investigating God.

Next, you said, “Christian scientists have a clear motivesand bias.” Before starting, the word bias means to have a prejudice favor of oragainst one thing. In other words, it means to judge unfairly. Granted,Christians are not perfect people but considering our convictions and myover-all experience. Christians tend to hold a much more fair judgment. The trait of bias is not equal among our communities. The way things seem to be isthat its a culturally norm among the atheistic, secular and scientific communitiesto have such unfair judgment. And I’m not excusing Christians who have thatkind of judgment… if they judge wrongly then they are wrong. My point inbringing up prejudicism was as a warning to you so maybe you can question them.Maybe even bait them by bringing in God into the picture and say,”What if Godwas involved in this?” And see for yourself how they react?

And about motives, everyone has a motive. Motive is a general word. It describes your reasons or purpose for acting. The word motivecan be replaced with theory. Everyone has a theory… what we need to reallyfocus on is whether we're honest when we know our theory doesn’t work or is poor.

Yes, I claimed that I asked the Christian God proof. Iliterally used that word in my prayer. Basically, I was on a cross road in mylife. I was ready to follow the philosophy of social-evolution and become an atheist.I planned on living my life as an extremist set on killing as many white people as I possibly can with my life. Why? Well, after reading a little bit of history… that pretty much convinced. However, God was something I had to makesure about. The thing is, I thought, if God exists than he’ll take care of allthe evil that happened in the past. But, if he doesn’t exist then I’d like toavenge my ancestors and bring justice myself. As a result, I decided that theonly way I’m going to know is if I saw an angle or some kind of miracle happen…something super-natural. I figured I’d pray for one. But, I suspected that inorder to pray (communicate) with God, I’d have to be in connection with himlike his prophets and followers. So, as someone who grew up going to church, I alreadyknew how to connect with God. Faith. Or in other words, I’d have to put my trustin God. I opened up my Bible in a way I never opened it before and looked forreasons to trust the Christian God. The first thing that came to mind was averse I remembered ever since I was a kid, “For this reason a man shall leavehis father and mother, to be with his wife and to become one flesh,” Genesis2:24. This was one of the verses that reminded me God’s stance on sex. And that stance was that it should be done only in the context of marriage, between aman and a woman. I respected this because the secular world has taught me thatas a man… I can use up women like sex toys and it was (and still is) admirableand masculine to do so. That was onereason I could trust God. Next, I remember hearing about how fundamental the TenCommandments was for the Old Testament. I looked through those ten big rulesand found nothing but admiration and respect to God and uttered the words, “Whynot believe in this?” And the Ten Commandments made my reason #2. Next, Iremembered the story of Joseph. I’ve seen a movie of his story a few times andit was one of my favorites because it had a great moral and truth about God. And that was that no matter what happens, it pays to do the right thing and thatGod is capable of bringing good things out of the evil circumstances thatmankind can cause. A verse pin points that thought…

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant itfor good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

And my last reason and maybe the most powerful reason wasJesus Christ, God himself. Supposedly this God was willing to die for me out oflove for me and the world. I’d say that’s a pretty nice God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begottenSon, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I was set. And I basically just said, “I accept you.” And itwas official, I decided to put my faith in God for these reasons. Then I wentinto a room, closed the door behind me and started to pray. I basically saidthat I don’t care about heaven or hell… I just want to know the truth and what’sright… and that I wanted proof, specifically a vision. And that if he gave me avision, then I’d serve him the rest of my life. But if he doesn’t then I’llnever believe in him ever again… no matter what.

Just for your information, my tone was humble and Igenuinely meant what I said. So, I waited and kept my faith for a few days. Andthen I got angry and looked up at the ceiling and said, “Don’t you care aboutwhat I’m going to do them? Aren’t you suppose to be a God of love?” And Ipanted and calmed down. And reasoned/thought, “If God is real than he has apersonality and he’ll do things when decides to. Remember the story of Abrahamand how he waited for his miracle his whole life.” And that kept me in line fora bit longer. Later on, I think it was the next day, I woke up in the middle ofthe night and noticed a glowing circle on my room’s ceiling with some kind of triangleshape within the circle. The color was a dark green. And to my excitement, Isaid, “God exists!” “God exists!” and the next day I did wonder about the possibilityof me just imaging it but then figured that I was just being difficult. Becausethe thing is I prayed for a specific miracle and something resembling thatspecific miracle happened. I never did drugs or drank alcohol to cause any ofthis so I’m inclined to accept that God answered my prayer. And ever since thenI’ve kept my Faith.

I understand what a correlation is and what you have justread was an experiment. I ventured into testing God the same way that Gideonfrom the Bible tested God. Gideon was the reason I figured I can “test” God tosee if he’s real by asking God for something he could do. This experience wasobservable, (clearly) testable and repeatable because this wasn’t the last timea prayer was answered within such conditions….if it means anything to you.

Also, evidence is not exclusive to the scientific disciplines.Evidence can be in the form of testimony and argumentation. Historical analysisis a good example of this kind of evidence. So, please don’t dismiss this basedon the false idea that evidence is purely scientific. It is not. There are lawyersusing testimonial and argumentative evidence as we speak in court of laws.

Investigate God yourself. Do you know what your against?What do you know about the Christian Jesus/God? Can you tell me the fundamentalideas within the Christian faith?

 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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On the other hand, when I tell a good many Believers that I really don't believe in God they repeat, "Yes you do. You just don't know it."

It's very frustrating.
hi Cycel:)

actually, that should say: "Yes you do. You have intentionally suppressed that knowledge of God - in unrighteousness (meaning refusing to acknowledge Him - choosing not to)."

it was true of some of us, also.
He said He doesn't like that - the not acknowledging Him part:)
:)
would you? if you were the Creator and owner of all you created?
it would be like if you had children and cared for them all their lives, gave them everything they have - but they refused to acknowledge you...at all.

they even deny in public they know you:eek:
and go about maligning you, or calling doubt on your very person.
it's silly.
zone
 
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Cycel said:
... when I tell a good many Believers that I really don't believe in God they repeat, "Yes you do. You just don't know it."
hi Cycel

actually, that should say: "Yes you do. You have intentionally suppressed that knowledge of God - in unrighteousness (meaning refusing to acknowledge Him - choosing not to)."
How would you react if I said, 'Zone, You really do know there is no God, but your subconscious is deliberately suppressing that knowledge. Every time you have felt God's presence it was really your own subconscious mind supplying the sense of otherness in order to hide the truth of what you know from your conscious mind.'?

Is it possible for me to understand you better than you understand yourself, when we have never met? Do you know me better than I know myself even though we have never met? Is it reasonable for either of us to make assertions about the subconscious beliefs of the other?

Zone said:
it was true of some of us, also.
He said He doesn't like that - the not acknowledging Him part

would you? if you were the Creator and owner of all you created?
Are you saying God does not like not being acknowledged?

If so he is free to make himself known to me anytime he wishes. I've actually requested this, but he has never obliged. If there is a God, and if he really does want all us atheists to acknowledge him, then why is he deliberately hiding from us? Let's face it, the God you believe exists could make himself known to all the world. So I am waiting, and waiting, and waiting. Maybe he only has to unblock the unconscious minds of all the atheists?

Zone said:
it would be like if you had children and cared for them all their lives, gave them everything they have - but they refused to acknowledge you...at all.
My children know I exist. I cook them their supper nearly every day. They've bought me birthday and Christmas presents. They give me medical advise because they don't think I am looking after myself properly. God? He has never made himself known to me or to my children. Your analogy with parents doesn't work Zone, because children know their parents exist.

If you want me to accept that a being I have never seen, nor felt the presence of, exists, then you have to give me a more concrete reason than the claim that my subconscious mind knows what my conscious mind doesn't. Frankly, if there is a God, he seems to care less about this issue than you do.
 
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danschance

Guest
How would you react if I said, 'Zone, You really do know there is no God, but your subconscious is deliberately suppressing that knowledge. Every time you have felt God's presence it was really your own subconscious mind supplying the sense of otherness in order to hide the truth of what you know from your conscious mind.'?

Is it possible for me to understand you better than you understand yourself, when we have never met? Do you know me better than I know myself even though we have never met? Is it reasonable for either of us to make assertions about the subconscious beliefs of the other?


Are you saying God does not like not being acknowledged?

If so he is free to make himself known to me anytime he wishes. I've actually requested this, but he has never obliged. If there is a God, and if he really does want all us atheists to acknowledge him, then why is he deliberately hiding from us? Let's face it, the God you believe exists could make himself known to all the world. So I am waiting, and waiting, and waiting. Maybe he only has to unblock the unconscious minds of all the atheists?


My children know I exist. I cook them their supper nearly every day. They've bought me birthday and Christmas presents. They give me medical advise because they don't think I am looking after myself properly. God? He has never made himself known to me or to my children. Your analogy with parents doesn't work Zone, because children know their parents exist.

If you want me to accept that a being I have never seen, nor felt the presence of, exists, then you have to give me a more concrete reason than the claim that my subconscious mind knows what my conscious mind doesn't. Frankly, if there is a God, he seems to care less about this issue than you do.
Cycel,

I wish it was that easy to find God. It would be awesome to ask Him to show Himself and *POOF*, He would magically appear. Unfortuantly, that is not how it works. The bible says we must seek Him.

For me, the way I achieved that was to start out by going through the motions of being a Christian mechanically. In time, I found my attitudes changed to being more in line with Christians. I continued to seek God and after 3 years I was rewarded as I began to hear Him speak to me. I have witnessed miracles, lives changed and the hurting liberated from their pain. It has been a wild ride for me. Of course I doubt other peoples journey has been the same as mine.

I hope someday you find out that God is real and He really cares for you.
 
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Cycel,

I wish it was that easy to find God. It would be awesome to ask Him to show Himself and *POOF*, He would magically appear. Unfortuantly, that is not how it works. The bible says we must seek Him.
Elsewhere I've made clear that I did seek God. I knocked on the door of faith and knocked vigorously. The door did not open.

danschance said:
For me, the way I achieved that was to start out by going through the motions of being a Christian mechanically.
I did that, but it didn't help.

danschance said:
In time, I found my attitudes changed to being more in line with Christians.
I had the right attitude in the beginning as I started out life as a believing Christian.

danschance said:
I continued to seek God and after 3 years I was rewarded as I began to hear Him speak to me.
The beliefs that I held in the beginning fell away slowly, but at the end I still wanted to believe sufficiently that I made a huge effort to come to God. Unlike the experience you had God never responded. The voice you heard -- was it something you could have missed? This is the claim some Believers threw back at me. They claimed God reached out, but that I didn't notice.

danschance said:
I have witnessed miracles, lives changed and the hurting liberated from their pain. It has been a wild ride for me. Of course I doubt other peoples journey has been the same as mine.
I think Paul’s experience shows that the journey to faith can vary considerably from person to person. I have come to think that the absence of a response from God is the reason, that in the end, I lost all belief.

danschance said:
I hope someday you find out that God is real and He really cares for you.
If God's truly there that is something I would like to know, but frankly I have given up searching. It would be a simple matter for God to tap me on the shoulder and say, 'Hi, you've been looking for me?' I don’t think it would take any effort for God, as we understand him, to make that connection if that was what he truly wanted.

Was there one moment for you in which you suddenly realized God was real, or did it come upon you gradually? I don’t understand what you experienced when you said God began speaking to you.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Cycel, you took your faith of the cross and failed as we all have. Square your shoulders and go back to the cross. we all fail and have to pickup our boot straps and move forward. God still loves you and is not shocked by what you have done or said. Trust me I know.
 
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in order to approach Father God you must first believe He exists!...sounds odd but thats the bottom line of it, so if you are constantly trying to prove that he does not exist, he will not exist to you ever or at least until YOU believe in him!God won't waste his time trying to prove himself to a wall of doubt.Neither should we....this is an exclusive club by invitation only!!too late in the game to recruit now!!!
 
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in order to approach Father God you must first believe He exists!...sounds odd but thats the bottom line of it...
No, that doesn't sound odd at all, but it presents a definite problem for an atheist.

leo1 said:
... so if you are constantly trying to prove that he does not exist, he will not exist to you ever or at least until YOU believe in him!God won't waste his time trying to prove himself to a wall of doubt.
Unbelief should not present an obstacle for God, but it is a big problem for an atheist. I can't come to God until I believe, but I can't believe without a reason. I'm stuck. To set the record straight I am no longer trying to prove to myself that God does not exist. I am already convinced of it.

leo1 said:
...this is an exclusive club by invitation only!!too late in the game to recruit now!!!
I don't follow. Are you saying God has first to invite new members, but he is currently not recruiting? This runs contrary to what most people seem to believe, thus this is not likely what you mean. So what do you mean?
 
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Well god doesn't appear to be interested in recruiting people who require some sort of evidence. Instead he prefers to rely on ancient text originally written in dead languages to spread his word.

If god wants more followers he need to change his approach. With just less than a third of the worlds population believing in him, competing religions and people who require evidence to believe... Why isn't he doing anything to convert these people?

I'm sure it wouldn't take much.

This isn't a demand for evidence.. But you have to appreciate that god is doing very little to convert new people. Apart from relying on the words of other people
 
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no, God does not recruit, that is our job...I, me, myself, have smacked into the wall that unbelievers put up, way too much...sorry but its your job to approach Father, he nor I can do that for you...I, me, myself,[not speaking for God] am past the part where I answer the same tired arguments to the same tired lost boys.....too late in the game for that. that is just MY opinion. God speaks for himself as always.
 
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BlackShuck

Guest
If atheists don't believe in God, then why do they get mad at Him?
If atheists don't think He is real, then why do they blame him for everything?
If people can't tolerate other religious views other than their own, why do they hold to a position thats high in their own belief?
If people originated with or from monkeys, why then isn't it fully proven to be not a theory?
Why do they call it a theory, but still teach it through books and school?
I don't understand???????
I think this is a little inaccurate as not all athist are alike I do not think that they blame everything on God more the opposite that would kind of defeat the point in being an aithist

also to blame God for something is to admit he is real therefore how could he be an athist

All science is a theory there are no full answers why anything works the way it does if we did not teach theory then we would still be living in caves. Do you not think that every scientific discovery was once a theory? I would have thought it obvious why we teach theory ion class.

I also cannot see how you can say "If people can't tolerate other religious views other than their own, why do they hold to a position thats high in their own belief?" when I have met a number of christians that sit on there high horse with there bible looking down at the stupid arrogont athiests with exactly the same view.
 
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BlackShuck

Guest
Well god doesn't appear to be interested in recruiting people who require some sort of evidence. Instead he prefers to rely on ancient text originally written in dead languages to spread his word.

If god wants more followers he need to change his approach. With just less than a third of the worlds population believing in him, competing religions and people who require evidence to believe... Why isn't he doing anything to convert these people?

I'm sure it wouldn't take much.

This isn't a demand for evidence.. But you have to appreciate that god is doing very little to convert new people. Apart from relying on the words of other people

This why I find It hard to believe in religion because there as many unanswered questions as science both are flawed in one way or another. Why would God put Jesus in the middle east and leave him there. Why did he not travel around to other country to spread Gods word. I don't see how it would make any sense to send someone to hell for not believing that Jesus was our savoir if they never heard of him in the first place. I would not be surprised if there people on this planet the have still never heard of him. It just doesn't make any sence and when you do find them you have to convert them from what ever religion there believing
 
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danschance

Guest
Was there one moment for you in which you suddenly realized God was real, or did it come upon you gradually? I don’t understand what you experienced when you said God began speaking to you.
I was born a Lutheran pastor's son, so I even as a small boy, I believed. God remained silent to me until age 15. At that time I was sitting in a church which had a circular sanctuary with the alter in the center. At the end of the service people got up and started to shuffle out. I felling of peace over took me that was so rich I had no intention of moving. Then I heard a voice speak to me from with in me and it was not heard in my ears, but I could clearly perceive it.

The voice spoke in almost a soft gentle tone and nothing about it frightened me as it felt very natural. The voice said "Do you see that woman?". Up front was an older Hispanic woman crying at the alter and praying fervently. Then after a brief pause the voice said "Her son is in prison." Then after another short pause the voice said "I am going to help her son, because I love her". Then after another pause the voice said "I am going to help you because I love you". I cried and walked two miles home, crying the entire way. At that point, I knew for sure that God was real. God never spoke to me again until 2 or 3 years ago.

Over the years my faith cooled and cooled until it stopped having a pulse. Gradually, for reasons I can't explain I eventually questioned if God was real. One day i was speaking to a life long friend who was an atheist and told him I was an atheist as well.I stayed in that state for more than a decade. My wife lost her faith and we didn't even bring our kids to church.

My mother died suddenly and a couple of months after that i was hospitalized with appendicitis. While i the hospital I had a dream of my mother visiting me in my hospital room. After I woke up and at the risk of ridicule I will state that I started to occasionally have uncontrolled and sporadic psychic visions.

In time I learned how to initiate a vision, but I will not mention how I did it as I have no desire for others to attempt this. I would amaze my friends with information I got from these visions. I eventually became confident and started to post on certain message boards that if you need a psychic I would help. I also met two others like myself. I did do cold readings on strangers and I became very confident in "my gift".

I never once wondered about God. In fact I started to hate Christianity and Christians. On holidays I would go visit my sister who would always invite her church friends. I bristled around them and gave them angry looks. My hatred for them was completely irrational. One of her friends I especially hated more than the rest. Later he would be my pastor.

One day I got a message from a lady who wanted my help. Her name was Tabitha D. She would have some strange black out spells and as she would come out of them she would have a vision of her young daughter dead in a coffin. I did the reading online and told her about her past. I saw her crying as a young girl and agreed she did that because of her dad, I mentioned her dad's alcohol abuse and how many in her family were alcoholics I also told her how her childhood German Shepard would wait for her at her front gate as she came home from school. But I got nothing on her daughter.

Later while driving on the freeway and bored, I was trying to see if her daughter was sick. I could psychically scan a person and "see" illness but I found none. Then I looked at her in a a total sense and suddenly the vision changed and I saw what looked like a demon waving his hand in front of my which implied "Don't go here". I broke off that vision and tried again but this time I saw dozens of demons working inside her body.

From that point on my life turned into hell. My visions turned scary. Every time I would close my eyes I would see a man starring back at me in amazing detail. I could count his whiskers. He seemed to be staring at me from a couple three feet away from me it it was never a pleasant experience. Each night as I lay in bed, I could feel someone stare at me from a spot ten feet away from me. I could sense exactly where his eyes where. I saw a dark silhouette of my son walk into my bedroom out of the corner of my eyes and he headed to the restroom. Then I realized I never heard a sound, so I went to see if he was there. He was not. Then my daughter Jessica told me she believed in ghosts and i asked her why. She said every time she took her clothes off she sensed something starring at her. She said as she would shower she could sense it in the shower with her.

One day as the entire family was together I asked if anyone had sensed being watched. Right away my son said he did. I asked him where he felt it was coming from and he identified the exact same spot I had. He went on to say he had also seen our dog Kona, a Rottweiler even though we had put her down 6 months prior. He also said he saw a shadowy figure of a man reach over and touch his arm which went immediately numb. my wife had not yet seen anything and she was lived that somehow I had polluted my kids into believing this junk. She said I was crazy and in my opinion, really harmed her own children. After her angry outburst they no longer wished to talk about it for fear of being labeled crazy and catching mom's wrath. Later, my wife would encounter a strange paranormal event. She laid on top of her daughters bed and sensed her daughter was with her, in that room.

I contacted a friend named "TC" or Terry C. who was a medium. She gave me some advice on how to get rid of the shadow man. She said to pour salt around windows and doors on exterior walls, also pour some rose oil and sleep with a white candle. I was desperate and tried it She also told me to go and walk to the area the ghost stands and stares at me, I did and came back to the computer and she told me she got him. I no longer sensed the staring and felt a huge relief. Neither the shadow man or the starring ghost ever came back. I thought I was in the clear but I was wrong.

Soon I began having uncontrollable visions of a demon. Every time I closed my eyes I now saw this demon who really looked odd. He appeared to be very thin with disproportionately large horns, one on each side. He would always appear with a huge grin and showing all his teeth. Nite after nite I had to deal with him by keeping my eyes open until I fell asleep. I began drinking heavily to make sure I would quickly go to sleep. I told another friend about him and she said "don't mention it's name" but before I could respond I heard a voice inside my head say "baphomet, baphomet, baphomet" in a strange goat like voice. One day while in a vacant floor and I felt a person about my height rush me from behind. TC told me to use a blocking technique. I would imagine in my minds eye as if I was viewing myself from above. By filling my mind with images it would hopefully block out these intrusions. I had limited success with that technique. I could sense it was going to put its hands on my throat but it all suddenly stopped. This same thing happened one more time while I was killing time in my truck.

After two months I had enough. I decided to take my own advice I had given Tabitha and go see a priest. As I pulled into the parking lot of a local Catholic church, I heard a soft female voice say "Don't do it" and it brought me to tears. So I found the secretary and she could see I had been crying and she gently asked what I wanted and informed me the priest is busy but he can call me. The priest, Father Edward, came to my home. When I told him I was a psychic his face went from friendly to angry and said "Don't you know what you are doing with that crap? Don't you realize who is behind your abilities? I can't help you unless you completely give the up." He told me to start reading the bible, pray often and attend church. I did all he suggested and things got better.

Soon I found on online deliverance forum where I had posted my story and started to learn about deliverance which is a specific type of ministry that deals with demons. This post is already way too long so I won't bore you with details on that. Eventually, Life returned to normal. One lady in particular helped me out a great deal and she is now a member of forum. God again has spoken with me. In fact I hear God speak to me once in a couple of weeks or so. In a nutshell, that is how I came back to my faith in God.
 
D

DasLicht

Guest
I am a pagan atheist who used to be Christian and has abandoned this faith for the worship of nature and its beauty. I have found a deep and lasting peace in it, that Christianity was never able to give me.