Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

[Stephen63]

Contrary to the belief of many, not all LCMS Lutherans are cessationists. A simple look on the internet has given some surprising results.
From Wikipedia:
The LCMS is distinguished from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) by three main theological beliefs:


1. The biblical understanding of fellowship: the LCMS believes in a distinction between the altar, pulpit fellowship, and other manifestations of Christian fellowship (i.e., a prayer fellowship). The WELS does not.
2. The doctrine of the ministry: the LCMS believes that the Pastoral office is divinely established, but all other offices are human institutions and hence are not divinely established. The WELS believes that the Ministry of the Word is divinely established and that congregations and the synod may choose the forms of public ministry they wish to use.
3. The role of women in the church: Although both the LCMS and WELS agree that Scripture reserves the pastoral office for men, the WELS also believes that Scripture forbids women's suffrage in the congregation.
Additionally, some LCMS congregations are somewhat more tolerant of the charismatic movement than the WELS; some of the more prominent charismatic Lutheran congregations are members of the LCMS.

How strange....... Out of all the junk that certain Lutherans have posted on this site against the Charismatic movement, they totally failed to mention that their own denomination has them, and prominent congregations at that. My first search on the Internet found this. Strange indeed.

Continued......................​

 

[Stephen63]

The LCMS bars its clergy from worshiping with other faiths, holding "that church fellowship or merger between church bodies in doctrinal disagreement with one another is not in keeping with what the Bible teaches about church fellowship."[SUP][30][/SUP] In practice of this, a Connecticut LCMS pastor was asked to apologize by the President of the denomination, and did so, for participating in an interfaith prayer vigil for the 26 children and adults killed at a Newtown elementary school, and a LCMS pastor in New York was suspended for praying at an interfaith vigil in 2001, 12 days after the September 11 attacks.[SUP][31]


[/SUP]

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[zone]

Contrary to the belief of many, not all LCMS Lutherans are cessationists. A simple look on the internet has given some surprising results.
From Wikipedia:
The LCMS is distinguished from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) by three main theological beliefs:


1. The biblical understanding of fellowship: the LCMS believes in a distinction between the altar, pulpit fellowship, and other manifestations of Christian fellowship (i.e., a prayer fellowship). The WELS does not.
2. The doctrine of the ministry: the LCMS believes that the Pastoral office is divinely established, but all other offices are human institutions and hence are not divinely established. The WELS believes that the Ministry of the Word is divinely established and that congregations and the synod may choose the forms of public ministry they wish to use.
3. The role of women in the church: Although both the LCMS and WELS agree that Scripture reserves the pastoral office for men, the WELS also believes that Scripture forbids women's suffrage in the congregation.
Additionally, some LCMS congregations are somewhat more tolerant of the charismatic movement than the WELS; some of the more prominent charismatic Lutheran congregations are members of the LCMS.

How strange....... Out of all the junk that certain Lutherans have posted on this site against the Charismatic movement, they totally failed to mention that their own denomination has them, and prominent congregations at that. My first search on the Internet found this. Strange indeed.

Continued......................​

Additionally, some LCMS congregations are somewhat more tolerant of the charismatic movement than the WELS; some of the more prominent charismatic Lutheran congregations are members of the LCMS.[citation needed]


you're going to find the citation for this, right?

your own search found an assertion without a citation.
why did you DELETE [citation needed]?

you're deflecting from your own stuff.
i assure you, the very structure of LCMS services FORBIDS 'today's charismatic' anything.

nobody is praying in tongues or giving prophecies.
if they are....they aren't in an LCMS service.

but hey - maybe you're right.
let's find out .

 

[Stephen63]

Charismatic Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Larry Christenson, a Lutheran theologian based in San Pedro, California, did much in the 1960s and 1970s to interpret the charismatic movement for Lutherans. A very large annual conference was held in Minneapolis during those years. Charismatic Lutheran congregations in Minnesota became especially large and influential; especially "Hosanna!" in Lakeville, and North Heights in St. Paul.[citation needed] The next generation of Lutheran charismatics cluster around the Alliance of Renewal Churches.[citation needed] There is currently considerable charismatic activity among young Lutheran leaders in California centered around an annual gathering at Robinwood Church in Huntington Beach.

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[zone]

The LCMS bars its clergy from worshiping with other faiths, holding "that church fellowship or merger between church bodies in doctrinal disagreement with one another is not in keeping with what the Bible teaches about church fellowship."[SUP][30][/SUP] In practice of this, a Connecticut LCMS pastor was asked to apologize by the President of the denomination, and did so, for participating in an interfaith prayer vigil for the 26 children and adults killed at a Newtown elementary school, and a LCMS pastor in New York was suspended for praying at an interfaith vigil in 2001, 12 days after the September 11 attacks.[SUP][31]


[/SUP]

Continued......................​

are you involved in interfaith prayers?
do you as a Pastor pray with Muslims and Catholics and Buddhists?

what's this doing in here anyway except to evoke emotional reactions?

i have no problem with you posting it.
LCMS remains separate to keep heresy OUT.

 

[zone]

Charismatic Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Larry Christenson, a Lutheran theologian based in San Pedro, California, did much in the 1960s and 1970s to interpret the charismatic movement for Lutherans. A very large annual conference was held in Minneapolis during those years. Charismatic Lutheran congregations in Minnesota became especially large and influential; especially "Hosanna!" in Lakeville, and North Heights in St. Paul.[citation needed] The next generation of Lutheran charismatics cluster around the Alliance of Renewal Churches.[citation needed] There is currently considerable charismatic activity among young Lutheran leaders in California centered around an annual gathering at Robinwood Church in Huntington Beach.

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hey Stephen.
before you continue, are going to get around to actually knowing what you're talking about....and knowing that there are several groups who have Lutheran in their names?

you're going to find LCMS/LCC is not part of them. they are going OUT from Lutheranism.
but carry on.



"....Another document, "Policy Statement Regarding the Neo-Pentecostal Movement" issued in 1975 by Concordia Theological Seminary in Springfield, Illinois, deplored the "distortions" of neo-pentecostalism, i.e., "that the Spirit works today apart from or supplementary to the means of Grace."[33] Some charismatic LC-MS pastors did teach that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was subsequent to water baptism, but generally charismatic Lutherans understand faith as created by the Word The report also claimed charismatic Lutherans abandoned the Theology of the Cross for a Theology of Glory.[34] Concordia Seminary denied enrollment to the program for certification to applicants who answered on the questionnaire that they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.[35]....

....Renewal in LC-MS today
Aided by Rodney Lensch and other LC-MS charismatic movement pioneers, Del Rossin convened a ministerium in 1987 that led to the founding of Renewal in Missouri (RIM) "to try to address the church in a positive way, what is the good news about renewal."[36] RIM held informal gatherings with LC-MS hierarchy, still hosts conferences and retreats for pastors and networks within the LC-MS. RIM also publishes a quarterly newsletter which is sent to a mailing list of 10,000. Rossin said that the charismatic renewal "Really never made much difference in the Synod" [changing attitudes or the direction of its hierarchy] even though more than 600 pastors received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and dozens of congregations were renewed."[37]...

...Whereas the LC-MS document said renewal theology contradicted the Lutheran Confessions, the LCA statement stated in its first guideline, "Where it is authentic -- that is, where it bears good fruit --- the charismatic experience must be understood within the scope of the life of the church. There is no cause for Lutheran pastors or people to suggest either explicitly or implicitly that one cannot be charismatic and remain Lutheran in good standing."[41] According to Charles Miller, the LCA bishops led the way and demonstrated their spiritual as well as administrative leadership.[42] Bishop McCarney of the Central Pennsylvania Synod and the Presiding Bishop James Crumley supported the Holy Spirit conferences held between1976-1983. They were both speakers at Central Pennsylvania Synod's Charismatic Renewal Conference in 1981. Charles Miller met with Bishop Crumley in 1981 and proceeded to assist the Church, bishops, pastors and the LCA congregations in matters of the charismatic renewal within the Church. Presiding Bishop Crumley's support and blessing indicates the extent to which the LCA leadership undertook to support the renewal.

The Meaning of a Movement: Lutheran Charismatic Renewal < click

stephen, is the LCA the LCMS?

 

[zone]

Charismatic Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Larry Christenson, a Lutheran theologian based in San Pedro, California, did much in the 1960s and 1970s to interpret the charismatic movement for Lutherans. A very large annual conference was held in Minneapolis during those years. Charismatic Lutheran congregations in Minnesota became especially large and influential; especially "Hosanna!" in Lakeville, and North Heights in St. Paul.[citation needed] The next generation of Lutheran charismatics cluster around the Alliance of Renewal Churches.[citation needed] There is currently considerable charismatic activity among young Lutheran leaders in California centered around an annual gathering at Robinwood Church in Huntington Beach.

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Lutheran Renewal Leader ‘Ashamed’ Over ELCA

5:50PM EDT 8/26/2009 ADRIENNE S. GAINES

A prominent Lutheran renewal leader said his denomination's vote on Friday to allow noncelibate homosexuals to serve as clergy has left him feeling ashamed but he has no plans to leave the church.

Larry Christenson (pictured), former head of International Lutheran Renewal (ILR), said the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America's (ELCA) affirmation of homosexual ministers left him with "a feeling of shame that was so palpable I could have cut it with a knife."

Although he knows of ministers who already have left the ELCA and supports their decision, he also understands the view of Lutheran leaders who say conservatives can "speak truth" to their denomination if they remain.

Lutheran Renewal Leader ‘Ashamed’ Over ELCA Vote < click


so please proceed to discuss whatever you like about ELCA or ILR or any other group called Lutheran.
i'll easily AGREE with you.

 

[Stephen63]

It is noted that zone has made posts on this thread. zone has been put on ignore to keep the Op from being tempted to derail his own thread. I suggest that anyone else tempted to do this would do the same to keep this thread from becoming a battleground.

 

[Stephen63]

The charismatic renewal among Lutherans | Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)

A paradoxical connection

Yet the charismatic renewal has also touched Lutherans. "Paradoxically, perhaps," observes Grant Wacker, "the movement showed greatest success among 'high church' bodies such as Catholic, Episcopalian, and Lutheran." The Lutheran International Renewal Center reported in 1984 more than 1,300 pastors on its list who were openly charismatic, including over 400 in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS).

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[zone]

It is noted that zone has made posts on this thread. zone has been put on ignore to keep the Op from being tempted to derail his own thread. I suggest that anyone else tempted to do this would do the same to keep this thread from becoming a battleground.

ok.
zone is on ignore so you can't see you're posting gross misrepresentations - using your back of tricks.

i'm done posting on this thread.
watch for a new one on Mr. Pentecost - David du Plessis.


"The third view is that the purpose and parameters of the movement have been misunderstood and its significance have yet to be seen. Larry Christenson, when asked his perspective today on du Plessis' words on blooming where planted, repeated the vision told by Ortwin Schweitzer in 2002 at a 40th anniversary of the first conference charismatic movement in Stuttgart, Germany, "We had a vision of a field of cabbages. There was a vast field of them, and as we watched them grow in front of us we understood that they represented centers of renewal, but as they grew and we saw the blossoms we realized they were not cabbages at all, they were tomatoes."[62]

The Meaning of a Movement: Lutheran Charismatic Renewal < click


David Johannes du Plessis (7 February 1905 – 2 February 1987) was a South African-born Pentecostal minister. He is considered one of the main founders of the charismatic movement, in which the Pentecostal experience of baptism with the Holy Spirit spread to non-Pentecostal churches worldwide.

Originally shunning other movements, he became an active believer in ecumenism, beginning his efforts in the 1950s to share the Pentecostal experience with Christians in the historic denominations, chiefly Roman Catholicism. His main gateway into ecumenism was through his friendship with John McKay, then President of Princeton Seminary, New Jersey. McKay invited Du Plessis to address the International Missionary Council in Willingen, West Germany, in 1952. There he earned the nickname "Mr Pentecost".

He was a member of staff and Pentecostal "observer" at the World Council of Churches in 1954 and 1961, respectively, and was invited to serve as Pentecostal representative at the Second Vatican Council.

David du Plessis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click


"Lutheran Charismatic Renewal Services (LCRS) is supra-denominational and openly ecumenical in its approach. Seasoned ecumenical observers have singled out the charismatic renewal as the most vital and significant thing happening in the ecumenical scene today" p.2-3

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/HorneberLutheranCharismaticRenewal.pdf < click

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is noted that zone has made posts on this thread. zone has been put on ignore to keep the Op from being tempted to derail his own thread. I suggest that anyone else tempted to do this would do the same to keep this thread from becoming a battleground.

Hey bro. Why would you ignore her? I agree with her, Anything we find on Wikipedia is suspect at best. Especially when it says citation needed. Can you find proof?

also. if your going to make accusations against her church, the fact you ignore her puts you on shaky ground. Would make us believe you have no proof!

 

[Quickfire]

i blame the germans lol but for all i know ther could me some nice mattyn luthers, who knows but not from what i have herd

 

[Stephen63]

Hey bro. Why would you ignore her? I agree with her, Anything we find on Wikipedia is suspect at best. Especially when it says citation needed. Can you find proof?

also. if your going to make accusations against her church, the fact you ignore her puts you on shaky ground. Would make us believe you have no proof!

Accusations? What accusations? You mean all these things I've posted off the Internet are accusations? Really? Did you just now come up with that because of the content of this thread? If not, why didn't you speak up before when it was done in here all the time, and you never said a word? Those that I'm speaking about then were true accusations. But now you want speak up.
Don't derail this thread by making accusations that someone is making accusations. Really.........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Accusations? What accusations? You mean all these things I've posted off the Internet are accusations? Really? Did you just now come up with that because of the content of this thread? If not, why didn't you speak up before when it was done in here all the time, and you never said a word? Those that I'm speaking about then were true accusations. But now you want speak up.
Don't derail this thread by making accusations that someone is making accusations. Really.........

And you have major issues.

If you open any thread which makes accusations against anyones church, then ignore someone from that church, i would say the same.

You just destroyed your own thread by being a hypocrite. if I was a mode. I would close this thread based on your attitude!

 

[Stephen63]

http://www.lutheranrenewal.org/The_Charismatic_Movement2.pdf

In the popular mind, speaking in tongues is the spiritual gift most often associated with the
charismatic movement. It is probably the most widely experienced spiritual gift in the renewal,
and also the most controversial.11
12 Risto Santala, Armolahjoista armon tasolta (Helsinki: Karas-Sana Oy, 1978). For a detailed summary of Santala’s study, see
Welcome, Holy Spirit (pp. 409-411), and Ride the River, p. 97.
- 5 -

The day before the ALC research team concluded its visit in our congregation, Dr. Qualben
asked if I would record some speaking in tongues for him. The next morning I turned on a tape
recorder during my private devotions and gave the tape to Dr. Qualben before he left.
In time I simply forgot about the tape. About ten years later I received a telephone call from a
man who identified himself as Risto Santala, a longtime missionary to Israel from Finland. He
was presently visiting the LCMS (Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod) seminary in Fort Wayne,
Indiana, where he heard a report on the charismatic movement from a Dr. Paul Qualben. In the
course of his lecture, Dr. Qualben played the tape I had given him some years earlier. Santala
perked up his ears because he recognized some Hebrew words. He asked Dr. Qualben if he could
study the tape back in his room. He played the tape over many times. There were eight separate
prayers in tongues. He recognized them as Hebrew, with some admixture of Aramaic. The
subject matter was a hymn of praise cast in Old Testament bridal imagery. Santala subsequently
published a book in Finland reporting his research on this tape.


Santala’s study was objectively interesting, since speaking in tongues is often dismissed as
mere gibberish. What struck me more personally, as I read his translation of what I had prayed in
tongues, was how different the ideas and imagery were from my normal prayers in English. It
was not that the words were outlandish or obscure, just that they were different from my usual
way of speaking or praying, less taken up with my own needs and concerns, more focused on
God’s Kingdom. As I have thought about this since, it has made me more humbly aware that the
Holy Spirit leads us into a life profoundly beyond ourselves. “As the heavens are higher than the
earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9).
As a gift to enrich one’s prayer life, speaking in tongues is widespread and useful in the
charismatic renewal, as prayer itself is widespread and useful. More importantly, it stands
representative of a worldwide initiative of God to more fully manifest the presence and power of
the Holy Spirit.

 

[Quickfire]

Accusations? What accusations? You mean all these things I've posted off the Internet are accusations? Really? Did you just now come up with that because of the content of this thread? If not, why didn't you speak up before when it was done in here all the time, and you never said a word? Those that I'm speaking about then were true accusations. But now you want speak up.
Don't derail this thread by making accusations that someone is making accusations. Really.........

lol that sounds like a protestant to me, the lutheran church Missouri Synod i believe your saying, sounds like there a bunch of stuck up toffee noses to me. but dont know enough about them, im still waiting to speak to one lol

 

[Stephen63]

And you have major issues.

If you open any thread which makes accusations against anyones church, then ignore someone from that church, i would say the same.

You just destroyed your own thread by being a hypocrite. if I was a mode. I would close this thread based on your attitude!

I don't understand you being so touchy of this thread. But I'm sure the readers can figure it out. If you persist with your accusations, I'm going to put you on my ignore list as well.

If you don't like the thread, nobody's making you stay. That's what the Admins have told me, & they will tell you too. Sounds like to me you need to build a bridge and.........well, you know the rest.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't understand you being so touchy of this thread. But I'm sure the readers can figure it out. If you persist with your accusations, I'm going to put you on my ignore list as well.

If you don't like the thread, nobody's making you stay. That's what the Admins have told me, & they will tell you too. Sounds like to me you need to build a bridge and.........well, you know the rest.

Yeah, I know you have a serious attitude.

1. You make an accusation.
2. Someone from that church asks for proof. As well as I did (evidently you do not have any, because all you seem to want to do is attack me) and all you can say is yo uhave her on ignore.
3. And you expect us to believe you are acting Christlike?

Do you have proof? or are you just going to continue to attack people??

hint hint.. wikepedia is not proof!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lol that sounds like a protestant to me, the lutheran church Missouri Synod i believe your saying, sounds like there a bunch of stuck up toffee noses to me. but dont know enough about them, im still waiting to speak to one lol

lol. I am neither lutheran or part of any lutheran anything. I am a non denominational.

I am just asking someone to back up his facts, and doing what he is doing is not very christlike..

 

[crossnote]

I thought liberal Lutherans went ELCA, now they want the LCMS?
I think Luther called the charasmatics of his day...'enthusiasts'.