Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[zone]

I agree with John Calvin, who depending on the translation called your interpretation 'stupid' or 'ignorant.'

We do not have such great knowledge know that our speech, knowledge, and understanding makes Paul's seem like a child in comparison. In the passage, he wrote of his own knowledge as an individual. Paul gives us some guidance on how to interpret this early in the book when he says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' The passage that follows discusses tongues and prophecy and then the resurrection of the believer at the coming of Christ when mortality puts on immortality.

1. There is nothing in the context that indicates he is talking about knowledge coming with a completed canon in I Corinthians 13.
2. The idea that he does mean that does not fit with the passage.
3. There is plenty of evidence elsewhere in the book that he has a later date in mind.

The only reason to see this idea in the passage is if you have an axe to grind and you need a straw to grasp at.



That's the issue here, isn't it. The Bible teaches us certain things about spiritual gifts. Yet men's complicated and sometimes irrational 'theology' leads us away from what the word teaches.

presidente:

Paul lived in a real time.
real events happened.
he received instruction/revelation in real time.
that was combined with his superior knowledge of the OT scriptures, which was also given in real time.

Paul on the road to Damascus (a lame depiction of what it must have been like).



are you claiming, that as in that real time - as Paul the prophet and apostle was receiving direct NT doctrine and mysteries were revealed to him - we today should be dressing that way and riding horses around in the Middle East?

because some ppl say God is speaking directly to them?


how about this:

christians under nero.


are you dressed like that?
is that happening EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as it was in THAT real time?

do you own a Bible?
what's in it?

everything you need for the faith delivered once for all?

NO, CLEARLY NOT.
YOU NEED SOMETHING MORE.
SOMETHING NEW.


BTW - was teleio - greek for "perfect" EVER used as name for Jesus?

 

[presidente]

are you claiming, that as in that real time - as Paul the prophet and apostle was receiving direct NT doctrine and mysteries were revealed to him - we today should be dressing that way and riding horses around in the Middle East?

No. But I have no clue what you are getting up. If you have some kind of argument you are making about the way we dress now versus then, you did not set up your argument. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

do you own a Bible?
what's in it?

everything you need for the faith delivered once for all?

NO, CLEARLY NOT.
YOU NEED SOMETHING MORE.
SOMETHING NEW.

What you mean by 'everything you need' is that we don't need the things the Bible says we should have. The Bible does not say it is 'everything you need.' And certainly doesn't imply it the way you mean it. Are you saying we don't need faith because the Bible is everything we need? That we don't need to have love because the Bible is everything we need? That we don't need to be baptized or partake of communion because the Bible is all we need?

I suppose we can just say we have all we need because we own a copy of the Bible on the shelf, never read it, never do it, never believe it, but think we are okay because we have the Bible. But that wouldn't please God.

The Bible teaches us to have faith. So we should have faith. It teaches us to have love, to repent and be baptized, to fellowship with the body and blood of Christ. It also teaches us that the Spirit gives certain gifts to the church and gives commands on how they are to function in the church.

If we can't do away with faith, love, baptism and communion because the Bible is 'everything you need' then we shouldn't able to do away with spiritual gifts either.

Having a copy of the Bible does not do away with the need to believe and obey the teachings of the Bible.

BTW - was teleio - greek for "perfect" EVER used as name for Jesus?

Of course not. But you are fighting a strawman. Paul is talking about that which is perfect. Teleion is a word on it's own merit.

I have a question for you? Does the Bible ever use to teleion to refer to the completed scriptures or completed knowledge that comes with a completed canon? I mean, apart from your saying I Corinthians 13 means that. That would be a circular argument if you gave that reference.

And you do know that gnosis in that passage is in the feminine, not the neuter like to teleion. You had no problem earlier saying that the word referred to completed knowledge.

Also, you are a Lutheran, and Lutheran clergyman are usually very well educated. I don't know how well they all know Greek. But I would seriously be surprised if there were a respected Lutheran theologian who ever used this line of reasoning about the Greek in I Corinthians 13, the way you do. Maybe a 2-year Bible college graduate Baptist cessationist pastor who learned his Greek from the back of a Strong's concordance, but I just would be surprised if Lutheran seminary professor who knew Greek would say such a thing.

 

[unclefester]

"Okay, there are those that are fake, but Sister is CHRIST being preached?"

[video=youtube;cQ4114XO-Xo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4114XO-Xo[/video]



HOME - IS CHRIST BEING PREACHED BY THOSE 'NOT FORBIDDING' TONGUES?

Appalling. Poor kids subjected to this type of carnage. Nothing short of abuse ... yet far worse in that this trash gets attributed to "God". Disgusting beyond words

 

[Stephen63]

If Spiritual gifts are wrong for the church today, how come LCMS has practicing charismatics within their own denomination?

Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

 

[ForthAngel]

If Spiritual gifts are wrong for the church today, how come LCMS has practicing charismatics within their own denomination?

Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

No one is saying the spiritual gifts are wrong. We are saying that faking them is heretical.

 

[zone]

No. But I have no clue what you are getting up. If you have some kind of argument you are making about the way we dress now versus then, you did not set up your argument. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

never mind
it just wondered why according to one single epistle (which YOU use to contradict Acts 2) written to real ppl in real time before the revelation of God was fully given - you're not insisting everything else they did; received and performed either be done BY GOD today or that men do today.

gotten beaten by the jews with rods lately?
did ya understand Christ's warning for you to flee Judea before Titus got there?
you must be really really old.

so you agree tongues were known human languages - i have no clue why you persist in this other thing.

What you mean by 'everything you need' is that we don't need the things the Bible says we should have. The Bible does not say it is 'everything you need.' And certainly doesn't imply it the way you mean it. Are you saying we don't need faith because the Bible is everything we need?

oh purl-triple-eeze.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

1 Corinth 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

^ not enough?

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

Strong's Greek 4102
243 Occurrences

Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- faith, faithfulness < click

That we don't need to have love because the Bible is everything we need? That we don't need to be baptized or partake of communion because the Bible is all we need?

B]1 Thessalonians 1:3[/B]
We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

agapé: love, goodwill
Original Word: ἀγάπη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: agapé
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-ah'-pay)
Short Definition: love
Definition: love, benevolence, good will, esteem; plur: love-feasts.

Strong's Greek 26
116 Occurrences

Strong's Greek: 26. ἀγάπη (agapé) -- love, goodwill < click

I suppose we can just say we have all we need because we own a copy of the Bible on the shelf, never read it, never do it, never believe it, but think we are okay because we have the Bible. But that wouldn't please God.

maybe you never read it, never do it, never believe it.
some of us do.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

1) your work - produced by faith
2) your labor prompted by love
3) your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

faith & love - produces and inspires works.
hope in in our Lord Jesus Christ inspires endurance

you just openly scoff and deny what this says:

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.

because you DO NOT BELIEVE IT.

The Bible teaches us to have faith. So we should have faith. It teaches us to have love, to repent and be baptized, to fellowship with the body and blood of Christ. It also teaches us that the Spirit gives certain gifts to the church and gives commands on how they are to function in the church.

no it teaches the Spirit GAVE gifts to the church.
for the building up and maturing of the saints IN THE TRUE FAITH.

you're not an apostle or a prophet, you're not in the Bible, you weren't a witness of Jesus Christ's life - death - and resurrection.
so why would God be confirming YOUR ministry with the miraculous signs He said were for THOSE WITNESSES?

If we can't do away with faith, love, baptism and communion because the Bible is 'everything you need' then we shouldn't able to do away with spiritual gifts either.

Having a copy of the Bible does not do away with the need to believe and obey the teachings of the Bible.

what - evah.

fake tongues then.
give fake prophecies.

if you think that's obeying the Bible - have at it.
more degrading of what THEY DID.

Of course not. But you are fighting a strawman. Paul is talking about that which is perfect. Teleion is a word on it's own merit.

téleios

is Jesus ever called a THAT? OR téleios as a name (THAT WHICH IS)?

NO. he's talking about something else.
Jesus isn't the subject of that passage.

I have a question for you? Does the Bible ever use to teleion to refer to the completed scriptures or completed knowledge that comes with a completed canon? I mean, apart from your saying I Corinthians 13 means that. That would be a circular argument if you gave that reference.

Strong's Greek 5046
19 Occurrences

Greek Concordance: τέλειον (teleion) -- 7 Occurrences < click

ANY referring to Jesus Christ the Person?

And you do know that gnosis in that passage is in the feminine, not the neuter like to teleion. You had no problem earlier saying that the word referred to completed knowledge.

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

Also, you are a Lutheran, and Lutheran clergyman are usually very well educated. I don't know how well they all know Greek. But I would seriously be surprised if there were a respected Lutheran theologian who ever used this line of reasoning about the Greek in I Corinthians 13, the way you do. Maybe a 2-year Bible college graduate Baptist cessationist pastor who learned his Greek from the back of a Strong's concordance, but I just would be surprised if Lutheran seminary professor who knew Greek would say such a thing.

some agree with you:

Sola scriptura: A Blueprint for Anarchy

The Catholic case against sola scripture may be summarized by
saying that sola scripture is unhistorical, unbiblical and
unworkable.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/solascri.txt < click


Hebrews:

telos end, fulfillment

to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering
Jesus having been made perfect through suffering
the Law made nothing perfect
Son, made perfect forever
make the worshiper perfect
make perfect those who draw near
He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified
apart from us they should not be made perfect
the spirit of righteous men made perfect
teleios, the mature
teleios, more perfect tabernacle
teleiot‘s, press on to maturity
teleiÇsis, if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood
teleiÇt‘s, the author and perfecter of the faith
Jesus brings the maturity and completion that the Mosaic Covenant could never do!


is Jesus anywhere called THAT WHICH IS PERFECT?


Parallel Strong's
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But when the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end.

New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

King James Bible
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Parallel Verses
International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.

American Standard Version
but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

Young's Literal Translation
and when that which is perfect may come, then that which is in part shall become useless.

1 Corinthians 13 Interlinear
10 3752 [e]
10 hotan
10 ὅταν
10 when
10 Conj
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
however
Conj
2064 [e]
elthē
ἔλθῃ
might come
V-ASA-3S
3588 [e]
to
τὸ
that which
Art-ANS
5046 [e]
teleion
τέλειον ,
is perfect
Adj-ANS
3588 [e]
to
τὸ
that
Art-NNS
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
in
Prep
3313 [e]
merous
μέρους
part
N-GNS
2673 [e]
katargēthēsetai
καταργηθήσεται .
will be done away
V-FIP-3S


Young's Literal Translation
and when that which is perfect may come, then that which is in part shall become useless.

ho, hé, to: the
Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Short Definition: the
Definition: the, the definite article.

now i AM NOT a greek scholar.

but to the very best of my understanding, if JESUS is the subject (THAT/THE which is téleios) , His Name either appears without the definite article, or with it.......the definite article appearing referring to SOMETHING WITHOUT JESUS being the OBVIOUS subject, makes this passage (that which is perfect - NOT Jesus).



can anyone who is fluent in the Biblical Greek - someone who actually KNOWS Greek WELL please confirm or correct me on this?

ty

 

[jimmydiggs]

If Spiritual gifts are wrong for the church today, how come LCMS has practicing charismatics within their own denomination?

Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

No one said spiritual gifts are wrong. Just that you shouldn't play with lies and falsehood.

 

[zone]

If Spiritual gifts are wrong for the church today, how come LCMS has practicing charismatics within their own denomination?

Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

i'm on ignore, so no derailing intended - just the counter to all this.

a perfect opportunity: for all who may be interested, please see upcoming thread on Ecumenism, Roman Catholicism & The Charismatic Movement

(featuring Larry Christenson; David du Plessis; Ralph Martin and Stephen Clark; Derek Prince; Word of God (community); The Ft. Lauderdale Elders/Five; Vatican II; and The Shepherding Movement - etc).

.............

edit....reminded me of this (Larry from ELCA):

.....it's not about homosexual rights, it's about the demoralization of Christianity. nothing else.

at first glance i would agree with the poster who said - go ahead - the church they attend isn't christian anyway.....but that's not the point.

the point is getting to the true christian churches through these apostate fakers.

 

[SarahM777]

You are a good debater.
I enjoy our interactions.
Well done!

Rick,

One of the things I learned about myself a long time ago is that often if I am not being clear or making sense I do have to go through it again,I have a couple of friends where when I say something they for some reason get this quizzical look on their face like "What in the world are you saying? You're not making any sense"
So it's not a big deal for me if I am not making sense just ask me for clarification and I will do my best. May have to go through it a couple of times.

 

[Stephen63]

No one is saying the spiritual gifts are wrong. We are saying that faking them is heretical.

No one said spiritual gifts are wrong. Just that you shouldn't play with lies and falsehood.

Really? That's never been said? Either you two have very bad memories, have selective hearing, or you just told a big one for the team.
zone has been saying this ever since she's been on here. I could go to dozens of posts where she and all the other members of her pack had plainly said that these gifts passed away in the first century. They have said and continue to say that any other manifestations are not the gifts of the Spirit, and that Pentecostals, charismatics, and anyone else that believes that the gifts of the Spirit are used today are heretics, false teachers, and false prophets, and that we belong to cults.

I must say I'm very disappointed to hear you two say such things when the obvious has been said over and over and over. I guess I see where you stand now.

 

[ForthAngel]

Really? That's never been said? Either you two have very bad memories, have selective hearing, or you just told a big one for the team.
zone has been saying this ever since she's been on here. I could go to dozens of posts where she and all the other members of her pack had plainly said that these gifts passed away in the first century. They have said and continue to say that any other manifestations are not the gifts of the Spirit, and that Pentecostals, charismatics, and anyone else that believes that the gifts of the Spirit are used today are heretics, false teachers, and false prophets, and that we belong to cults.

I must say I'm very disappointed to hear you two say such things when the obvious has been said over and over and over. I guess I see where you stand now.

We aren't seeing the true miraculous gifts today. Sorry. We have no problem with the real ones. Just the faked ones.

 

[presidente]

but to the very best of my understanding, if JESUS is the subject (THAT/THE which is téleios) , His Name either appears without the definite article, or with it.......the definite article appearing referring to SOMETHING WITHOUT JESUS being the OBVIOUS subject, makes this passage (that which is perfect - NOT Jesus).

Again, this is a straw man argument. If the perfect comes when Jesus returns, that does not mean that the Greek word for 'the perfect' has to agree grammatically with the word for Jesus.

I think you are overthinking this. I don't think a perfect knowledge of Greek would help you either. It's an issue of semantics. You can see the same thing in English translation. If you way "when that which is perfect is come" refers to what happens when Jesus returns and the dead are raised and transformed (we shall be like Him for we will see Him as He is), 'that which is perfect' does not have to agree grammatically with Jesus. It stands on it's own as a noun phrase.

If you think that 'that' in 'that which is perfect' is a substantive 'that', a physical thing, your analysis of Greek should be enough to show that there is no support for that. The phrase is a translation of 'to teleion' and others might describe it as 'perfection' or 'the perfect.' Or they might go with a more modern word like complete or mature.

We don't interpret 'that' in 'that which is in part' to be a substantive 'that', to be a physical object. If you see 'that' as a thing, then wouldn't that mean, according to your interpretation, that when the canon was complete, the parts of the canon in existence in Paul's time would be done away with?

But that makes no sense in the context. Paul will have far superior knowledge after the perfect comes than he did before it. Paul will know fully as he is known. This makes sense if we are talking about Paul seeing Jesus and being transformed to be like him. It doesn't make sense to propose that we who read Paul's and the other apostle's writings will have far superior knowledge to them. That would also imply that Paul's understanding of the Gospel and of the faith once delivered to the saints was somehow lacking, that he only had bits and pieces of it, and Peter, too, rather than the idea that they all had a complete understanding of it.


If Luke had a perfect understanding of Christian beliefs before the canon was complete, why would Paul need to wait until after it was finished to have a complete understanding? Luke traveled with Paul and may even have been a spiritual child or grandchild, so to speak.

Luke 1
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

[SUP]3 [/SUP]It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Even if it had not all been written down as New Testament scripture, the faith had already been delivered to the saints prior to the completion of canon, prior to the writing of Jude.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

[zone]

Again, this is a straw man argument. If the perfect comes when Jesus returns, that does not mean that the Greek word for 'the perfect' has to agree grammatically with the word for Jesus.

I think you are overthinking this. I don't think a perfect knowledge of Greek would help you either. It's an issue of semantics. You can see the same thing in English translation. If you way "when that which is perfect is come" refers to what happens when Jesus returns and the dead are raised and transformed (we shall be like Him for we will see Him as He is), 'that which is perfect' does not have to agree grammatically with Jesus. It stands on it's own as a noun phrase.

PAUL WOULD HAVE JUST SAID WHEN JESUS COMES.

or some variation of Jesus Coming - like every other time that was his point.

talk about overworking it

can't win with you guys.

If you think that 'that' in 'that which is perfect' is a substantive 'that', a physical thing, your analysis of Greek should be enough to show that there is no support for that. The phrase is a translation of 'to teleion' and others might describe it as 'perfection' or 'the perfect.' Or they might go with a more modern word like complete or mature.

a physical THING?

how many times do i have to say I DO NOT USE THE NOTION OF A COMPLETED CANON - as in the Book you now hold in your hands (if you do). though this is certainly the teleios of all God's Revelation to us....i MEAN when the last word FROM GOD was spoken and circulated.

We don't interpret 'that' in 'that which is in part' to be a substantive 'that', to be a physical object. If you see 'that' as a thing, then wouldn't that mean, according to your interpretation, that when the canon was complete, the parts of the canon in existence in Paul's time would be done away with?

answered above.

neither did PAUL mean a PHYSICAL thing - he was talking about REVELATION (revelatory knowledge - doctrine - understanding - God's Plan - instructions - Will - Plan - full disclosure)...how many synonyms do you NEED?

Definition of REVELATORY
: of or relating to revelation : serving to reveal something
Webster's

is this REALLY that hard?

But that makes no sense in the context. Paul will have far superior knowledge after the perfect comes than he did before it. Paul will know fully as he is known. This makes sense if we are talking about Paul seeing Jesus and being transformed to be like him. It doesn't make sense to propose that we who read Paul's and the other apostle's writings will have far superior knowledge to them.

you DON'T have more information that they did as they RECEIVED IT?

of course you do!
you have IT ALL.


okay......let's pretend YOU are Paul, okay? (apply this to everyone he spoke to face to face in the churches AT THAT TIME...okay?)

there you are Paul - going around after being called and sent out.

The Lord is REVEALING things to you IN REAL TIME. you live in the 1st century, and you have SEEN Jesus...so you are a witness with authority and power.

God is REVEALING things to you for the New Testament documents we NOW call the Bible.

are you with me so far?

...

The Lord has JUST revealed to you a MYSTERY - something not fully revealed until He showed it to YOU, PresidentePaul.

so what do you do?

you WRITE IT DOWN and circulate the NEW information:

1 Corinthians 15
50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

wow.

so God KEEPS showing you MYSTERIES, Paul...and He keeps revealing new doctrine for you to RECORD for all time, so that everyone will have the COMPLETELY -

Ephesians 3:3
2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ

see how it worked?

1) the stewardship of God's grace which was given to Paul for THEM
2) that by revelation FROM GOD TO PAUL there was made known to Paul the mystery (of the Gospel that the gentiles would be FELLOWS HEIRS)
3) as he had written to them before, in brief
4) and......by referring to these writings - when you read you can understand his insight into the mystery of Christ.

okay?

so Paul and the other inspired disciples got the information.
they passed it along.

now it's NOT a mystery - RIGHT?

now for the big question:

DID PAUL KNOW ABOUT THE MYSTERIES HE REVEALED TO THE CHURCH BEFORE HE GOT THEM?



NO - he knew in part.....and Peter knew in part....and the people who received the revelatory SIGN gift of languages THROUGH WHICH they knew....in part.....the Wonderful Works of God, and REVEALED that information to the JEWS at Jerusualem.

was it done yet?

NO! they still kept getting NEW INFORMATION.....until......when?

UNTIL the last words from Jesus Christ - through John were given.

and since it took some time for all the information to be compiled, the gifts continued until the letters and information was ESTABLISHED for the NEW CHURCH.

Ephesians 2:20
Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:11
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

if you want to keep being foundational guys, HOW MANY TIMES MUST CHRIST BE LAID?

That would also imply that Paul's understanding of the Gospel and of the faith once delivered to the saints was somehow lacking, that he only had bits and pieces of it, and Peter, too, rather than the idea that they all had a complete understanding of it.

?????????????

that's EXACTLY what it's saying!

they got it in REAL TIME, man!!!

Paul came AFTER the others!

anyways.....look.
here are the Aposltes and then James making a decision in REAL TIME that stands to this day - is anyone today DARING to over-ride the Council?

Acts 15
6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnantb of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

please find me an Apostle today with authority to make decisions for the Lord's church ON THIS LEVEL!

or any apostle regardless.

HEVEEEE SIGH

 

[zone]

Again, this is a straw man argument. .

Luke 1
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

presidente -

did Luke travel around and take notes about what the eye-witnesses had seen and testified to?

just yes or no.

did he say many were recording the same things?

ya? no?

when did Luke write Luke? when did He write Acts?

1950?

?????

how many centuries have Christians and others been reading and hearing read about what the eyewitnesses saw and said and DID?

why did he say the EYEWITNESSES delivered the information to them?

"which from the beginning were eyewitnesses"

okay? so PLEASE tell me if there are any eyewitnesses alive today.

no? okay....that settles that.
so what do we have now? no more apostles...right?

but we have their testimonies, don't we?
where do we find them?

wasn't THAT GOD'S PLAN?

is anyone else's - walking around today - testimony about Jesus Christ and what He said and did worth 10 cents if they aren't getting it from SCRIPTURE?

guys like Rodney Howard Browne or Patricia King who say they've gone to heaven and kicked it with Jesus and got new info about wine cellars in heaven and riding golden motorcycles and seeing their mansion with early american furniture and whatnot?

anyways...if you like that stuff, have at it.

tongues were human languages. you admitted that.
they ceased, right? if not - where? you got MILLIONS of ppl speaking tongues.
where are the real languages?
now what, presidente?

alrighty.
dun .
night.

 

[vic1980]

James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5046 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]teleion[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τέλειον[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]perfect,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-NNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

STRONGS NT 5046: τέλειος

τέλειος, τελεία, τέλειον (τέλος), in classic Greek sometimes also τέλειος, τέλειον (cf. Winers Grammar, § 11,1), from Homer down, the Sept. several times for שָׁלֵם, תָּמִים, etc.; properly, brought to its end, finished; lacking nothing necessary to completeness; perfect: ἔργον, James 1:4; ἡ ἀγάπη, 1 John 4:18; ὁ νόμος, James 1:25; (δώρημα, James 1:17); τελειοτερα σκηνή, a more perfect (excellent) tabernacle, Hebrews 9:11; τό τέλειον, substantively, that which is perfect: consummate human integrity and virtue, Romans 12:2 (others take it here as an adjective belonging to θέλημα); the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven, 1 Corinthians 13:10; of men, full-grown, adult; of full age, mature (Aeschylus Ag. 1504; Plato, legg. 11, p. 929{c}): Hebrews 5:14; τέλειος ἀνήρ (Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 4f; 8, 7, 6; Philo de cherub. § 32; opposed to παιδίον νήπιον, Polybius 5, 29, 2; for other examples from other authors see Bleek, Brief a. d. Hebrew ii., 2, p. 133f), μέχρι ... εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον, until we rise to the same level of knowledge which we ascribe to a full-grown man, until we can be likened to a full-grown man, Ephesians 4:13 (opposed to νήπιοι, 14); τέλειοι ταῖς φρεσί (opposed to παιδία and νηπιαζοντες ταῖς φρεσί), 1 Corinthians 14:20 (here A. V. men); absolutely, οἱ τέλειοι, the perfect, i. e. the more intelligent, ready to apprehend divine things, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (R. V. marginal reading full-grown) (opposed to νήπιοι ἐν Χριστῷ, ; in simple opposed to νήπιος, Philo de legg. alleg. i. § 30; for מֵבִין, opposed to μαντανων, 1 Chronicles 25:8; (cf. Lightfoot on Colossians 1:28; Philippians 3:15)); of mind and character, one who has reached the proper height of virtue and integrity: Matthew 5:48; Matthew 19:21; Philippians 3:15 (cf. Lightfoot as above); James 1:4; in an absolute sense, of God: Matthew 5:48; τέλειος ἀνήρ, James 3:2 (τέλειος δίκαιος, Sir. 44:17); as respects understanding and goodness, Colossians 4:12; τέλειος ἄνθρωπος ἐν Χριστῷ, Colossians 1:28 (cf. Lightfoot as the synonym above: see ὁλόκληρος, and Trench, § xxii.).

huh???

 

[presidente]

PAUL WOULD HAVE JUST SAID WHEN JESUS COMES.

or some variation of Jesus Coming - like every other time that was his point.

talk about overworking it

can't win with you guys.

If you think like that, why didn't Paul just say in the passage that he was referring to complete knowledge that would come when the last of the scriptures were written (or some way of wording your belief to your satisfaction) instead of describing the coming of the perfect in ways that ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT MEAN THAT.

Paul wrote it the way he did for a reason. He is talking about a completion that is coming. That's the point he is addressing. We can look elsewhere in the epistle to figure out when. Paul sets up the topic of spiritual gifts and their duration in the first chapter when he tells us 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

I would not say that 'perfection' or the completion here means exactly 'complete knowledge.' That's part of it. But the completion to come also replaces prophesying 'in part.'

It is not, grammatically, referring to Jesus. I believe that the completeness will come either when Jesus comes back or some time later (perhaps when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God.)

The problem with your viewpoint is Paul's statement that when he was a child, he spoke as a child, he thought as a child, and he understood as a child. But when he became a man, he put away childish things. He is comparing what his knowledge will be like before completion comes to what it will be like after.

1. He is comparing HIS OWN KNOWLEDGE. Paul was asleep in Christ when John stopped writing. And supposing you want to interpret loosely and take Paul out of the equation.
2. Having the Bible does not make your knowledge superior to Paul's.
3. Having the Bible does not make your knowledge so superior to Paul's that he is like a child compared to you.

If you think the perfect is 'when the last word FROM GOD was spoken and circulated' what was that about that which is in part being done away with? Should the books written before that last word be done away with?

how many times do i have to say I DO NOT USE THE NOTION OF A COMPLETED CANON - as in the Book you now hold in your hands (if you do). though this is certainly the teleios of all God's Revelation to us....i MEAN when the last word FROM GOD was spoken and circulated.

I take a pretty fundamentalist view of the Bible myself. But it's just so obvious you are eisegeting. Where does Paul ever talk in terms of the last word of God coming in and shutting down spiritual gifts? Where does it show up in his other writings? What is the justification for reading the whole concept into the passage when Paul never mentions it?

neither did PAUL mean a PHYSICAL thing - he was talking about REVELATION (revelatory knowledge - doctrine - understanding - God's Plan - instructions - Will - Plan - full disclosure)...how many synonyms do you NEED?

It doesn't fit the passage. This doesn't make Paul's understanding of mysteries when he was writing scripture seem like childhood. Revelation is a great book. But does it make the epistles look childish? And what is the 'in part' you want to do away with?

The passage does make perfect sense if you consider that we as mere mortals have an inherent incompleteness to our understanding of things. Even the glorious gift of prophecy through which the prophets wrote the scriptures, which the prophets of the church also operated in, gave prophecies that were 'in part.' But a perfection is coming that will fundamentally change us. It will enable Paul to 'know as I am known.' Paul mentions tongues and prophecy in this chapter, and writes of the coming of the perfect. He expands on the themes in the next two chapters. He gives instructions on tongues and prophecy, and then he writes about the transformed state of the believer at the resurrection.

As for the duration of spiritual gifts, Paul had already written early in the same book, "so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

It makes sense in context. One need not posit the idea of spiritual gifts ceasing when the last bit of revelation which shows up in completed New Testament scripture is given, and read that into I Corinthians 13.

you DON'T have more information that they did as they RECEIVED IT?

of course you do!
you have IT ALL.

Revelation is not having paper and ink in a book or scroll. No man knows the Father except He to whom the Son reveals Him. Christ could directly tell the apostles that He would be crucified, but they still did not get it. Later, their hearts were opened to understand the scriptures.

Ephesians 1 says
17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
(NIV)

Notice the 'individual' aspect of revelation. It's not just what's written on the page, it is what goes on between the page and the mind and heart of the person. The Spirit is involved in giving the individual believer revelation.

I Corinthians 13 also talks about 'the complete' in relation to the individual, Paul's individual knowledge.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

It is how we see, not what is written in the scriptures. It is Paul's individual knowledge. He knows in part, but then he shall know even as he is known. This refers to something that allows the saints to see and know fully, a transformation of the saints.

The Lord has JUST revealed to you a MYSTERY - something not fully revealed until He showed it to YOU, PresidentePaul.

so what do you do?

you WRITE IT DOWN and circulate the NEW information:

If God revealed a mystery to Paul, that doesn't mean He hasn't revealed the exact same mystery to Peter, James, and John. Peter and John learned from Jesus. Paul learned supernaturally in the desert. Peter received understanding of the salvation of the Gentiles very early on.

1 Corinthians 15
50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

We are incomplete now, before this resurrection occurs. We know in part, and we prophesy in part.

so God KEEPS showing you MYSTERIES, Paul...and He keeps revealing new doctrine for you to RECORD for all time, so that everyone will have the COMPLETELY -

Ephesians 3:3
2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ

Paul wrote 'now I know in part; but then I shall know, even as I am known.'

This is something Paul will experience.

If Paul received complete knowledge before his death, what was John doing receiving an elaborate prophetic experience after Paul went to sleep in Christ?

If John's prophecy was
1. written after Paul died
2. a genuine prophecy

then the gift of prophecy operated after Paul received his complete revelation. EIther the gift continued to function after the perfect came. (I suppose you could offer it operates, but now it is complete and not in part.) Or else the perfect has not yet come.

Can you point out which revelation of Paul was the last one that made revelation complete and perfect so that he could know as he is known? Which revelation was so many leaps and bounds ahead of the others that it made his understanding before writing I Corinthians 13 childish by comparison?

so Paul and the other inspired disciples got the information.
they passed it along.

now it's NOT a mystery - RIGHT?

No. It can be a mystery even if he passes it along.

1 Corinthians 3:11
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

if you want to keep being foundational guys, HOW MANY TIMES MUST CHRIST BE LAID?

In this context it would seem he laid the foundation of Christ to every new city where he introduced the Gospel.

that's EXACTLY what it's saying!

they got it in REAL TIME, man!!!

Everything happens in real time. Apparently, you have some meaning in your mind when you use this phrase 'real time', but I don't get what you mean. Do you mean a time period in the past? I am typing this in real time. You are reading this in real time.

Paul came AFTER the others!

anyways.....look.
here are the Aposltes and then James making a decision in REAL TIME that stands to this day - is anyone today DARING to over-ride the Council?

Acts 15
6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnantb of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

please find me an Apostle today with authority to make decisions for the Lord's church ON THIS LEVEL!

or any apostle regardless.

No apostle did this on his own. One person does not a council make. But notice this is the apostles discerning the will of the Spirit, and passing it on.

The Ephesians 4:11 apostleship was among the gifts that Christ received when he ascended on high and received gifts for men. This was after His crucifixion. The Twelve apostles were appointed before the ascension. Paul and Barnabas were apostles after the ascension. So was Timothy and Apollos, were weren't there at Acts 15. Historically, those who bring the Gospel to nations have been refered to as 'apostles', such as Patrick the Apostle of Ireland, Cyrill and Methodius known as apostles to the Bulgars, Slavs, etc. Some people even refer to Nommenson as the Apostle of the Batak. I don't think the Lutherans refuse to claim him over that.

 

[presidente]

presidente -

did Luke travel around and take notes about what the eye-witnesses had seen and testified to?

You totally dodged the point of Luke having perfect] knowledge before the 'that which is perfect' Paul referred to came.

okay? so PLEASE tell me if there are any eyewitnesses alive today.

no? okay....that settles that.
so what do we have now? no more apostles...right?

The Bible does not say one has to be an eye witness to be an apostle. One had to be an eye witness to be one of the Twelve, and also be with Christ from the time of John the Baptist, a requirement that Paul and probably a few of the other post-ascension apostles did not meet.

tongues were human languages. you admitted that.
they ceased, right? if not - where? you got MILLIONS of ppl speaking tongues.
where are the real languages?
now what, presidente?

Speaking in tongues is the tongues of men or of angels. If you don't know the language, as was the case in Corinth, you aren't going to recognize it. There have been numerous relatively modern accounts of people understanding speaking in tongues. There are testimonies of it from Azusa Street. There was a book of about 70 testimonies of incidents of people recognizing messages in tongues and similar testimonies in a book 'Spoken by the Spirit' by Paul Harris. It was available free online several years ago.

 

[homwardbound]

"Okay, there are those that are fake, but Sister is CHRIST being preached?"

[video=youtube;cQ4114XO-Xo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4114XO-Xo[/video]



HOME - IS CHRIST BEING PREACHED BY THOSE 'NOT FORBIDDING' TONGUES?

you need to tell me if Christ is being preached by the guy in this video while he speaks tongues, or by anyone else speaking tongues (i'm not asking about when actually speaks english....tell me what he is preaching in tongues)

the only things i understand are spoken by him in IN ENGLISH.

- "jesus jesus"
- "yes lord yes lord"
- "FIRE...FIRE"
- "it's all over, it's all over"
- "we worship you lord we worship you lord"
- "god almighty god almighty"
- "it's all over this building church, it's all over this building"
- "bring them bring them bring them"
- "we're gonna pray for more we're gonna pray for more"
- "now FIRE oh FIRE"
- "jesus jesus jesus"
- "we worship you lord we worship you lord"
- "MORE"
- "watch 'em watch 'em"
- "i worship you lord we worship you lord"


SINCE I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE TONGUES HE IS SPEAKING IN, and there is no INTERPRETER, would you, HOME, please tell me if JESUS IS BEING PREACHED in tongues?

is chanting the name jesus or saying fire fire fire bring them bring we worship you PREACHING JESUS?

what did Paul mean that Jesus was preached?

what do YOU mean "Jesus is preached/is Jesus preached"?

7:50

"I WANNA OPEN UP THE ALTAR FOR ANY FIRST TIMERS HERE....WHO WANNA GET WHAT THESE KIDS ARE GETTIN'...I WANNA GET WHAT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GETTIN'...IF THAT'S YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS....YOUR FIRST TIME ATTENDING THIS REVIVAL...COME ON COME ON...THE ALTAR'S OPEN FOR YOU..I'LL TELL YOU WHAT IT'S SO POWERFUL UP HERE.."

can any of that bring my unsaved neighbor to repentance and faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin, or cause him to walk in the ways of the Lord, Home? can any of that bring up a child in the faith delivered once for all, according to Paul's letter to Timothy?

....

you said to and OF sarah:

"So are you of self fighting what others believe against what you believe, and thus might not be being led by God."

do you believe God is doing that to those kids? are YOU led of God?

"We today are given the Holy Ghost by belief in God, being thus born again in God's Spirit to walk as Christ walked."

did Jesus do anything like we see in that video? Himself and TO OTHERS?

If I were called there then I would be there I am not called there only to preach Christ and you are forgivern in God through Christ.
Again Bible says do not forbid tongues rather seek to prophesy.
I do not think many that do speak in tongues are necessarily of God, but God Sister still loves them just as much as God loves you, for he went to the cross for all.
And we are in love with God if we see how deep God loves us and all the world. God did not come to condemn the world rather to save it
You without seeing this throw condemnation out as you see fit, I am sorry for this. Does God love those people whether they believe or not?
Did Paul as he went from place to place as led, be as the one's under the Law, be as those without Law, so that he might win a few to Christ?
Never like them, just understanding then, their stories without Judging them.
And I do understand where you are coming from, but I do not see condemnation that it seems you are expelling out, as if you are the way, and none of us are the way, only Christ is.


Lesson our judgement of others. We never see the whole picture. Never.
there are 1,000 reasons a person can behave a particular way. We don't know what is going on in their movie that motivates them to act in that way. I never know how I'd behave if I were in the other shoes. Today little by little, it would be good to learn to be more forgiving. Learn to where we can come from a place of help, rather than Judgement.

Judgements are only based on what one sees, from their owns thoughts. From their own experiences. There is truly only one that knows all. that one would be and is the creator of all.
If one learns to listen to the creator as Jesus Christ revealed to all mankind. (Christ taught us, to do nothing or say nothing w/o Father's instruction first and foremost), we would make the right judgements, with out condemnation. ( coming from the one listening),much less likely
The ones that argued would reveal their true selves, as was done in the day of visitation from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Steer clear from arguements, seek the truth in all things and one shall be free from the world and it's traps.

Sorry you are not seeing other's sides in the discussion of what they see.

 

[homwardbound]

1 Thessalonians 5:21
20do not despise prophetic utterances.
21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22abstain from every form of evil.

did Paul say figure this out?
he said:

1) examine everything carefully
2) hold fast to that which is good
3) abstain from every form of evil

he is clearly instructing people to know the difference between that which is good and that which is evil.
is this another way of saying figure it out?

1 Thessalonians 5:22
reject every kind of evil.

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

John said:

1) do not believe every spirit
2) but test the spirits
3) to see whether they are from God
4) because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

is this another way of saying you better figure this out, people?



Proverbs 3:5
4So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight

Proverbs 22:20
Have I not written thirty sayings for you, sayings of counsel and knowledge

Proverbs 22:17
Pay attention and turn your ear to the sayings of the wise; apply your heart to what I teach

are David or Solomon (through inspiration) speaking in tongues and we can't understand them without an interpreter?
isn't everthing always about being instructed in the ways of the Lord through what is written?

Galatians 6:7
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

paul is instructing here.
very serious matters.
is it done (through inspiration of the Holy Spirit) in a very clear manner, that we are supposed to understand and READ or HEAR about - from what The Holy Spirit had him WRITE?

are are we "not told anywhere to figure it out"?

is there, at any time, any instruction from the Holy Spirit that Christians are told they should turn off their brains to understand, or that they shouldn't figure out?

WHO is it that enlightens the mind and opnes up the Testimony of Jesus Christ to the believers?
is it the guy in the video?

or is it the Spirit?

will the Spirit ever lead people (who BY HIS OWN COMMISSION now desire to keep the words of Jesus) away from the teachings of Jesus.....exchanging them for incoherent noises, and disorder, and falling down?

Plain to you, are there healings, tongues, prophesy today at all ever from God? I know you are adamant on Fakes, and that I know is truth to.
So is there any real gifts of the Spirit of God given out to his children, to be used at God's Disposal today?

 

[homwardbound]

The whole point is that they too busy being "spiritually gifted" to be of any earthly value. Promoting gifts is not preaching the cross of Christ. It should be evident to even the casual observer reading through this thread.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thanks, yet the ? I have are gifts real, or can they be? It is clear there are fake ones yes and many? But all?