Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

[jimmydiggs]

If you only stated what you believed, instead of forcing your dogma down other's throats, perhaps we could just agree to disagree.

But no, argue till the end that you're right, and everybody else is wrong. Forcing your teaching on others to accept is not Biblical. I notice that other real issues and false doctrines in the church, such as Chrislam, Universalism, purpose driven church heresy, and a multitude of others all go unnoticed. It's as if the only real issue with you is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. We could all come together against these others, because most of us believe the same against them.

But that's not the true purpose of this is it? [/quote]
I find it rather ironic that a perosn claiming something as true, and that all others are wrong, is now complaining about others doing the same because they're supposed to be tolerant and not say that it's true. Postmodernism much?

Suppressing the work of the Holy Spirit, sowing seeds of unbelief in the church, is heresy to say the least, and brings damnation to those who teach it.

Amen, I wish pentecostals believed Jesus saves instead of believing tongues saves a person.

 

[SarahM777]

ALL OF THESE VERSES SPEAK PLAINLY. NONE OF THEM SPEAK OF A TEMPORARY WORK OF ANY GIFTS. NOT A SINGLE INDICATION OF THEM ENDING. YET, THOSE WHO SAY THEY BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES DON'T BELIEVE THEM. NEARY EVERY ONE OF THESE SCRIPTURES ARE WRITTEN OFF AS USEABLE TO THE MODERN CHURCH.

Quick question,if none of the gifts ceased are you saying that there are still apostles?

 

[zone]

i love john prine
hmm...flipping through CDs

 

[zone]

God gives guidance and leadership and a lot of other stuff, in His OWN PERSONAL WAY, to all who believe, whether they 'see' Him working in their life, well, that's up to the person personally receiving the substance of the faith and, ahm yeah, let's just leave at that, as, the Lord leads, but on 'that' much I think we can agree

a-a-a-and here we have green using LCMS arguments why pushing the charismatic agenda is not biblical - to argue with LCMS, and himself.

good call green.

 

[zone]

God gives guidance and leadership and a lot of other stuff, in His OWN PERSONAL WAY, to all who believe, whether they 'see' Him working in their life, well, that's up to the person personally receiving the substance of the faith and, ahm yeah, let's just leave at that, as, the Lord leads, but on 'that' much I think we can agree

7. That God promises healing and health to every Christian in this life and that, if such healing
does not occur, it is due to a lack of faith.

More balogney. Who says this stuff to you, sarah7s, makes you think others in Christ THINK of you in this condescending, even condemning way Makes no sense, that is not Christianity to say that faith is an ashaming act. Get close to my ear, milady: IT NEVER IS THAT WAY Never Not my God and not yours either

green - does Joyce Meyer teach healing as part of the Atonement?
how about some of the other televangelists?

 

[zone]

oooppppps
forgot which thread this is.....sorry stephen.

 

[Stephen63]

Amen, I wish pentecostals believed Jesus saves instead of believing tongues saves a person.

This kinda speaks for itself, doesn't it?

 

[Stephen63]

Quick question,if none of the gifts ceased are you saying that there are still apostles?

Are YOU saying there's not? Remember, that pretzel twisted 1Cor 13 scripture says nothing about it.

 

[Stephen63]

465 views....... I would like to personally thank those who come to read this thread. It's more about your reading to me than dealing with this opposition. You're noted & appreciated.

 

[SarahM777]

Are YOU saying there's not? Remember, that pretzel twisted 1Cor 13 scripture says nothing about it.

UMMM you mean this one

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge,it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

It says they will cease.

As to the fact that does not say apostles will cease,I don't believe there was any need to since the requirements for one being an apostle were laid out elsewhere and by those definitions it's self limiting. I believe the apostles had to be witnesses,or as Paul appointed by Christ Himself. By those definitions the office would have ended.

And you yourself have not answered the question,so again do you believe their are still apostles.

 

[Stephen63]

UMMM you mean this one

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge,it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

It says they will cease.

As to the fact that does not say apostles will cease,I don't believe there was any need to since the requirements for one being an apostle were laid out elsewhere and by those definitions it's self limiting. I believe the apostles had to be witnesses,or as Paul appointed by Christ Himself. By those definitions the office would have ended.

And you yourself have not answered the question,so again do you believe their are still apostles.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [SUP]30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? [SUP]31 [/SUP]But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Isn't what the Bible says more important than what I believe?

 

[Stephen63]

BTW, has anyone noticed that the word "missionary" is not in the Bible? Why was it added to our "traditional" list of offices to be under the authority of national elders? I think therein lies our enigma concerning apostles. Who else took missionary journeys?

 

[SarahM777]

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [SUP]30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? [SUP]31 [/SUP]But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Isn't what the Bible says more important than what I believe?

Of course God did all of that,no one is saying otherwise. But one still has to deal with the fact that the Bible does say some will cease.

If you don't want to answer that's fine.

 

[Stephen63]

Of course God did all of that,no one is saying otherwise. But one still has to deal with the fact that the Bible does say some will cease.

If you don't want to answer that's fine.

Oh, now I see...... because you twisted that scripture to believe that the gifts have ceased, now you're going to use the same scripture to declare that the apostles have ceased also? Why don't you just write it in your bible with red ink and make it so?

 

[SarahM777]

Oh, now I see...... because you twisted that scripture to believe that the gifts have ceased, now you're going to use the same scripture to declare that the apostles have ceased also? Why don't you just write it in your bible with red ink and make it so?

That's not what I said. I said there were others things that showed that the office and gifts of the apostles were self limiting
and would indicate that apostles also would end.

In cased you missed it this is what I said

As to the fact that does not say apostles will cease,I don't believe there was any need to since the requirements for one being an apostle were laid out elsewhere and by those definitions it's self limiting. I believe the apostles had to be witnesses,or as Paul appointed by Christ Himself. By those definitions the office would have ended.

 

[Stephen63]

That's not what I said. I said there were others things that showed that the office and gifts of the apostles were self limiting
and would indicate that apostles also would end.

In cased you missed it this is what I said

As to the fact that does not say apostles will cease,I don't believe there was any need to since the requirements for one being an apostle were laid out elsewhere and by those definitions it's self limiting. I believe the apostles had to be witnesses,or as Paul appointed by Christ Himself. By those definitions the office would have ended.

Here's what you said:

Of course God did all of that,no one is saying otherwise. But one still has to deal with the fact that the Bible does say some will cease.
If you don't want to answer that's fine.

You SAY the Bible teaches that the apostlic office will cease, because YOU BELIEVE that apostles HAD TO see Jesus. Pure foolishness.

WHY THEN does Paul tell the church that God has set apostles at the top of the list for their edification & maturity LONG AFTER Jesus is gone, knowing those "few" apostles would be dead before 50 years is out? They wasn't gonna live forever, you know.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [SUP]30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? [SUP]31 [/SUP]But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

And don't tell me about the "complete canon" either. Even after the canon was complete, few had it 'cause only the wealthy could afford it. Don't tell me Jesus planned that only the wealthy should be perfect while the poor go to hell, destroyed for lack of knowledge. Jesus ministered to the poor more than anybody else.
That's how the catholic church kept their people ignorant, illiterate, and stupid for centuries. That "complete canon" was so powerful that catholic church stepped in & removed it from the public eye. The catholic church had total dominion all those centuries while everybody else knew absolutely nothing. The church was so powerful with that complete canon that man just walked right in and took it over. Riiiiiiiight. The catholic church had it translated into Latin, a dead language, so that even when they found it, they couldn't read it. My, such a powerful canon. Where do you think Lutherans got that teaching about the canon from? That's right, the catholic church. And you're going to put your trust in that?

 

[presidente]

BTW, has anyone noticed that the word "missionary" is not in the Bible? Why was it added to our "traditional" list of offices to be under the authority of national elders? I think therein lies our enigma concerning apostles. Who else took missionary journeys?

The word for 'missionary' comes from a Latin word used to translate the Greek 'apostolos' (in contexts used to refer to people other than the 12 and Paul.)

Biblically, if you do away with apostleship, you don't really have much scriptural basis for a way of setting up churches in new lands. You can imitate Roman Catholicism, but even they allow for the continuance of the apostolic role and apostolic authority.

Christ appointed 12 apostles. AFTER THAT, he ascended on high and received gifts for men, including the gift of apostles. Some men were appointed apostles AFTER the ascension.

 

[presidente]

Sorry but John is quite clear Jesus preformed signs,John states it 11 times. Acts states 9 times that the apostles were doing signs and wonders. So no less then 20 times does the Bible point that the things they were doing were SIGNS.

Okay. None of that is an argument for 'sign gifts' being a special category of all gifts that cease. Mark 16 tells us that 'these signs shall follow them that believe".

 

[GreenNnice]

ug, just a bad understanding of pentecostals, and, highly judgmental in the processs, sarah7s.
Yes, sad, indeed. But, I know, I know, you've been beaten down into thinking that way of pentecostals for a bitter long time and why not think that way since they both condemn and condescend you, IN YOUR MIND.

I think, the view of the Trinity from a pentecostal perspective SHOULD put a lot of things in a rightful order of understanding.

There is only one God, but He consists of three distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The word “trinity” is not found in Scripture. It is a word used by Christians to express the doctrine of the unity of God as consisting of three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Greek word trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Latin trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine.
The propositions involved in the doctrine are these:

1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30).
   
2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
   
3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. (John 20:30-31)
   
4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

Notice the use of the words “us” and “our” when the Son of God (“The Word”) created Man (Gen. 1:26).
Although equal in divinity, the Father is in a position of authority or hierarchy over Jesus Christ, incarnate Son of God (John 14:28, 13:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Phil. 2:6-8).

What gets me them most is the brainwashing of thinking that others have some think is Truth and truth about them when they are simply misunderstanding doctrine, and, not genuinely falsely teaching things. They TRULY believe they are correct and things like the Atonement and Salvation and other big issues are misrepresented based on solid misinterpretation, and, all done what they are THINKING is for the cause of Christ.

But, they are still wanting to see God at work in people's lives and if you asked them if they wanted everyone to go to heaven then there answer is 'yes,' and, you can't look at their heart, only God can 'see' that, but, they are truly being genuine with that 'yes' answer

 

[GreenNnice]

The word for 'missionary' comes from a Latin word used to translate the Greek 'apostolos' (in contexts used to refer to people other than the 12 and Paul.)

Biblically, if you do away with apostleship, you don't really have much scriptural basis for a way of setting up churches in new lands. You can imitate Roman Catholicism, but even they allow for the continuance of the apostolic role and apostolic authority.

Christ appointed 12 apostles. AFTER THAT, he ascended on high and received gifts for men, including the gift of apostles. Some men were appointed apostles AFTER the ascension.

Just to add to , the word 'apostle,' that word is, literally, meaning, someone 'sent,' and, so it's not even a bibilical word only. Apostle is derived from the Greek word, pronounced ap-os-tol-os, which means messenger, or ambassador. Although the term is most often used to describe the Twelve. All apostles are disciples but not all disciples are apostles. Jesus hand-picked the Twelve apostles, who,therefore, by definition of the word 'apostle,' not just a Jesus main follower in Scripture. They are that, don't get me wrong, but the word 'apostle' far transcends Scripture It is EVEN in use today for anyone--take your pick-- who is a messenger or ambassador. John Kerry would be an 'apostle' in the strictest sense of the word, for being the Secretary of State, and going to deal with diplomacy in other countries like now in Syria.

So many think that 'apostle' ONLY refers to bible times, no, no, noooooooooo