Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

[zone]

Ahhh, the 'faith,' word, it takes sooooo much faith to believe that HE and not we are who runs our life on Earth and having the Word is NOT enough. It just isn't , we must have faith and believe His grace given us is sufficient. Just 'must.' jUst, JUST, juST must Now, I am not making a salvation claim, nor a call to repentance claim, I AM simply arming you with what He's telling me to say here, this I hope and pray

The Lord leads. "...you follow Me."

God isn't telling you what to say here.
you're puffed up if you think He is.
bye green.
zone

 

[GreenNnice]

"the perfect" from 1 Corinthians 13 verses proving both cessationiism and continuationism, depending one which side of the fence you are on, LOL, refers to a time in history when a certain One (with a face) will come to Earth.....

When?

When 'the perfect' is to come.

--------------------
Paul really could have been more clear of what was 'perfect' to come. God's Word is perfect. But will we know Scripture as we have already been known ?

Or...

Will we when Jesus comes (again) know Him as He already knows us from being on Earth WITH us back in 1 AD ? We will see Him 'face to face.'

Sorry, ohzone, this sounds like 'a person' to me

OR, does your bible have a face , ohzone ??

 

[GreenNnice]

God isn't telling you what to say here.
you're puffed up if you think He is.
bye green.
zone

Oh zone a bible is just a bunch of paper, or, papyrus, but The Word is sharper than any two-edged sword

-----------------
When you need God in your life for something that is important to you for getting through some financial, tragic situation in life, then, you will know that the Word is a bible and The Word is a Man who will be with you through it all that you have a need

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Jesus the Great High Priest
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[SUP]f[/SUP] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

 

[presidente]

because you're a continuationist.
you were taught that error, and that error was confirmed by false signs.

What I believe is plainly written in scripture. What are the signs that serve as your authority for believing this new cessationist dogma of yours, instead of the teaching of the New Testament scriptures?

 

[SarahM777]

Here's the scripture:
Colossians 1:23 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

This scripture says absolutely NOTHING about the office "fading from the scene"!

Do all Lutherans just pop any old scripture into their writings thinking nobody will read them, or is it just you, zone, and this guy you found? think you'd be smart enough to proofread this before you post it.

This guy just made his statement that the apostles had faded from view, and gave no real reference scripture to prove it. Why should anyone believe such garbage? Because he wrote a book?

This other verse is only saying that Paul was the last apostle to see Jesus. That does not prove he was the last apostle, because he wasn't.

This writer is twisting the scripture for his own means. Just like some people on here I know. 1:23

UMMM Stephen,Go back and read what he actually said. Punctuation is your friend. He is not using Colossians 1:23 as a proof text to say that,you read what wanted to read and not what he actually said. ADD THE PUNCTUATION it's makes a difference when you're reading it.


PS the man is NOT Lutheran.

 

[SarahM777]

 

[GreenNnice]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus answered him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Nah, who cares where you put the commas, it duznt madduh . Spilling either.To whom does care????


"Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise."


Yep, punctuation matters, sorry, I was wong .


And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23: 42-43 NIV

 

[Stephen63]

CONCLUSION

​

In light of all the biblical data set forth in this study, certain conclusions are quite evident.1. Since there are no apostles living today, and since Holy Spirit baptism was unique to the apostles (Acts 2) and the first Gentile converts (Acts 10), there is no Holy Spirit baptism today.2. Likewise, there is no miraculous healing today. There are no tongue-speakers today. The miraculous element in the Christian religion was terminated by God near the close of the first century. 3.Once the last apostle died, the means by which miraculous capability was made available was dissolved. With the completion of God’s revelation to humanity, now available in the Bible, people living today have all that is needed to be complete and to enjoy the fullness of Christian existence (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 4:14).
4.The alleged miracles and tongue-speaking of today simply do not measure up to the Bible’s description of the miraculous. They are unverifiable, ambiguous, and counterfeit. Today’s “divine healing” consists of vague, unseen, non-quantifiable aches and pains like arthritis and headaches. But in the New Testament, people were raised from the dead—even days after death (e.g., John 11:17). Severed body parts were instantly restored (e.g., Luke 22:50-51). People who had been born blind had their sight restored (e.g., John 9:1). Those lame from birth were empowered to walk (Acts 3:2). First-century miracles were not limited only to certain ailments and psychosomatic illnesses that could be cured through natural means, or by mental adjustments on the part of the infirm. Jesus healed “all kinds of sickness and allkinds of disease” (Matthew 4:23, emp. added). No disease or sickness was exempt in the New Testament (cf. Acts 28:8-9). Where are these instances today? When has anyone restored a severed limb lost in an accident? When has a self-proclaimed “faith-healer” raised anyone from the dead? Where are the miracle workers who have healed the blind, the crippled, the paralyzed, and those whose infirmities have been documented as having been in existence for many years (John 5:3,5)? Where are the televangelists who will go to the children’s hospitals and rectify birth defects and childhood diseases? Where are those who have ingested poison or been bitten by a venomous snake and remained unharmed (Mark 16:18; Acts 28:3-5)? An honest searcher for the truth is forced to conclude that the miraculous age has passed.

Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation--EXTENDED VERSION

1. Absolute lie. Stephen the deacon, Phillip the evangelist, as well as his four daughters, Ananias who prayed for Paul's eyes to be opened and receive the Holy Spirit, not to mention the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.

2. Another lie. Even cessationists believe in miracles.

3. Historical evidence has been mentioned several times about the gifts of the Spirit and the miraculous in the third and fourth centuries. Many miracles still happen today. What a bunch of garbage.

4. Another absolute lie. My wife was totally healed of gluacoma in a matter of DAYS, & she was in the last stages with irreversible damage. Don't tell me there's no verifiable evidence....... I've been aroud too long & seen too much.

It's sad..... you could do so much better if you searched for the truth. Instead you search for stuff that confirm your personal beliefs.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [SUP]4 [/SUP]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[SarahM777]

Silly Argument because Reading about Miracles is Not the Same as Seeing Miracles


This is just made-up doctrine. The Bible does not teach it. As such, it contradicts the idea of Sola Scriptura. It is not a part of the faith once delivered to the saints.

God bore witnessed to preachers with signs and wonders. God bears witness to His word. But the Bible does not teach that signs and wonders are to bear witness to a certain set of books that will be put in a closed canon. Even if one believe that, why would the signs and wonders cease if the book is still true? That makes no sense. The apostles preached the same message but did signs and wonders over and over and over again. If signs confirmed the message once for all and there was no need for signs again, why did the signs keep happening over and over again.

Peter could have stood up and said, "I will preach to you the Gospel, which was already confirmed to you by the message of Christ in Jerusalem. Since it was already confirmed, I won't do any more signs."

Philip could have said, "I will preach the Gospel to you Samaritans. Now, the apostles have already done signs and wonders in Jerusalem to confirm this message. And since those signs were done there in Jerusalem where you weren't present and could not see them with your own eyes, the message I will preach to you has been confirmed."

Which leads us to the point that seeing or experiencing a miracle or healing is not the same as reading about one in the Bible. The unbeliever is an unbeliever and doesn't believe the Bible. When grandma gets healed or the local lame beggar walks, that is a lot different from someone telling the unbeliever that the Bible tells about the miracles that authenticates that it is a true document.

That's reminds me Muslim reasoning. Muslims don't have any miracles to point to. They say their Koran is the miracle. So the proof of the Koran, they argue, is the Koran itself, that hte Koran is a miracle, and that this is evidence of the Koran. Does it make sense to the person who doesn't believe in the Koran?

Really, this whole line of cessationist reasoning is embarrassing. If an unbeliever asks you why the apostles did miracles to confirm their message, but your church doesn't, and you give this stock cessationist answer, aren't you embarrassed. Isn't it embarrassing to tell them that the apostles did miracles that their audiences could look at and see were genuine to authenticate a message they did not (yet) believe in, but since all those were written down in a book about the message you do not believe in, no more miracles need to be done? That's some embarrassingly bad apologetics.

The word of God has a power that the books of other religions do not have, of course. God's word is powerful and people can believe and be saved without seeing a miracle. God does not owe us miracles. But reading about a past miracle and seeing a miracle are not the same thing. The apostles did miracles. There is no scripture about apostles saying they don't need to do miracles because they can tell about the miracles they did before that the crowd they are talking to did not see.

Trying to Argue that Doing Miracles Is Opposed to Preaching


Neither verse supports his claim in any way. You really have to have an axe to grind to eisegete those ideas into those verses. This is creating a false dichotomy, where you set thing the Bible teaches about and endorses up as an enemy of the Bible. The really foolish thing about this argument is that the supernatural continued after this. Most of us think Revelation was the last book written or close to it, and it was a big supernatural vision or series of visions. And if you'll notice, I Corinthians goes on to give instructions on how to properly use supernatural gifts.

If doing miracles today undermines those verses, then the apostles undermined and cast aspersions on those verses by continuing to do miracles and supernatural things. The author clearly makes a stupid and foolish argument.

I Corinthians 1:22
22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
(NIV)

This doesn't say doing signs is an enemy of preaching. It doesn't say Paul refrained from doing signs and only preached. We know Paul did signs from reading Acts and the epistles. Romans 15 tells us that from Jerusalem round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, he had fully preached the Gospel of Christ. A miracle worker wrote this. The author's assertion about this verse and I Timothy 3 is just plain bunk and can't be supported.

That's one of the problems with cessationist articles like this. They cite scripture after scripture, but some simple Bible study and use of plain logic shows the scriptures don't support their arguments.

Strawman Arguments on Tongues
In 30 years I've never heard a Pentecostal or Charismatic argue about the nature of tongues based on the use of the word 'unknown'-- which is also italicized in the Bibles of Pentecostals and Charismatics who use the KJV.

I have never heard a preacher say anything about 'ecstatic utterances.' Some people seem a little ecstatic when they pray in tongues, but some people seem a little ecstatic when they pray, sing, or preach, too. The level of emotional enthusiasm doesn't show whether a gift is from God or not. God uses various personality types. Some speaking in tongues is done calmly. If it's for interpretation, it may be spoken loudly, along with the interpretation. But usually the tongue and interpretation don't sound any more 'ecstatic' than the preach in my experience.

And it also depends on what you mean by ecstacy. If ecstacy includes falling into trances, having visions, and things like that, then the Old Testament prophets, Peter, and Paul experienced ecstacy. Peter fell into a trance and had a vision on a rooftop. Paul fell into a trance and heard the Lord speak to him in the temple.

Did Apostles Have to See Jesus?
I'll not comment on everything. I need time in 'real life'. But I recalled one of your articles saying there were no apostles based on Acts 1:21 I think it was, and I Corinthians 9:1

Acts 1 lists a set of requirements to replace Judas that Paul did not meet up to. These were requirements to replace Judas. I Corinthians 9:1 does not say one had to have seen Christ to be an apostle. Paul is listing several reasons why he deserves to live of the gospel like Cephas, the Lord's brother, and other apostles. We don't know if Barnabas ever saw Jesus, but Paul asked if he and Barnabas were the only ones who had to work for a living.

Paul also asks, "Am I not free?" Being free is not a requirement to be an apostle. John did not lose his apostleship if he wrote from Patmos as a slave-prisoner in a salt mine there, as many believe. Being free does have to do with being paid for your work, which fits with the topic of those who preach the Gospel living of the Gospel. Slaves weren't paid. Other workers were.

UMM Did the Isrealites continue in all their time to see miracles? Or was there times when it appeared God was silent? You can NOT show from the Bible they did continue all the time. IT'S NOT THERE. No where in the Bible can you show that God did signs and wonders in a continuing pattern. It's not there. The pattern is God showed the signs and wonders and then they ceased. That is the pattern. What Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13 is in agreement with that pattern. The main sign always was and will be is that JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD. They testified to that fact the signs and wonders confirmed that.

Paul says HE SAW THE RISEN LORD and was APPOINTED BY THE LORD HIMSELF. When you say he didn't see the Lord that is a direct contradiction of what Paul said. He was a witness as one born out of time.

1 Corinthians 9

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?

The requirement was seeing Jesus risen from the dead.

 

[GreenNnice]

1. Absolute lie. Stephen the deacon, Phillip the evangelist, as well as his four daughters, Ananias who prayed for Paul's eyes to be opened and receive the Holy Spirit, not to mention the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.

2. Another lie. Even cessationists believe in miracles.

3. Historical evidence has been mentioned several times about the gifts of the Spirit and the miraculous in the third and fourth centuries. Many miracles still happen today. What a bunch of garbage.

4. Another absolute lie. My wife was totally healed of gluacoma in a matter of DAYS, & she was in the last stages with irreversible damage. Don't tell me there's no verifiable evidence....... I've been aroud too long & seen too much.

It's sad..... you could do so much better if you searched for the truth. Instead you search for stuff that confirm your personal beliefs.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [SUP]4 [/SUP]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Brace your speaking in Love, stevestephen

True, though, cessationists DO believe in miracles, I am pretyt sure, sarasara would agree, and, that they are not done by people per the ceasationist belief but they ARE done by God .

So, yes, that person sara7s researched speaks for things of no good Truth, and, stephensteve exposes it's audacity and atrocity of thought very ,very well.

Wouldn't you agree, sarasevens

 

[SarahM777]

1. Absolute lie. Stephen the deacon, Phillip the evangelist, as well as his four daughters, Ananias who prayed for Paul's eyes to be opened and receive the Holy Spirit, not to mention the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.

2. Another lie. Even cessationists believe in miracles.

3. Historical evidence has been mentioned several times about the gifts of the Spirit and the miraculous in the third and fourth centuries. Many miracles still happen today. What a bunch of garbage.

4. Another absolute lie. My wife was totally healed of gluacoma in a matter of DAYS, & she was in the last stages with irreversible damage. Don't tell me there's no verifiable evidence....... I've been aroud too long & seen too much.

It's sad..... you could do so much better if you searched for the truth. Instead you search for stuff that confirm your personal beliefs.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [SUP]4 [/SUP]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

If you actually read what the Bible showed they RECEIVED THE BAPTISM by the laying on of hands BY THE APOSTLES. Every time outside of Pentecost it was by the laying on of hands. Which the apostles were commissioned by Christ to do so. Which if you actually read the article he makes that point.

I never said God does not answer pray. What I said was what is NOT done these days is people being healed like this in a MOMENT

James says this

5

13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

The two are NOT the same by definition.

The thing with the historical evidence is they only heard that it was done NOT THAT ANY SAW IT. Look it up,they do NOT make the claim they saw it being done.

 

[Stephen63]

UMMM Stephen,Go back and read what he actually said. Punctuation is your friend. He is not using Colossians 1:23 as a proof text to say that,you read what wanted to read and not what he actually said. ADD THE PUNCTUATION it's makes a difference when you're reading it.


PS the man is NOT Lutheran.

THE DURATION OF AN APOSTLE

Once the church of Christ was established and Christianity was given its initial presentation (cf. Colossians 1:23), the apostolic office faded from the scene along with the age of miracles. As an eyewitness of Christ’s resurrection, Paul referred to himself in relation to the other apostles as “last of all” (1 Corinthians 15:8). Neither apostles nor miraculous gifts was needed any longer. They had served their temporary purpose (Mark 16:20; Acts 4:29-31; 13:12; 14:3; Romans 15:18-19; Hebrews 2:3-4; cf. Exodus 4:30). Miraculous gifts functioned as scaffolding while the church was under initial construction, and were removed once the structure had been completed (1 Corinthians 3:10; 13:11; Ephesians 4:13-14). The book we call the Bible is the totality of God’s written revelation to the human race. Consequently, people now have access to everything they need (2 Peter 1:3) to enter into a right relationship with God via Christianity and the church of Christ. The apostles “had no official successors. From the nature of their duties, there could be no succession” (Hayden, pp. 20-21).

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

cf. is translated, and can be read aloud, as "compare". It is an abbreviation for the Latin word confer, literally meaning "bring together", and is used to refer to other material or ideas which may provide similar or different information or arguments. It is mainly used in scholarly contexts such as in academic articles (mainly humanities, physics, chemistry, and biology) or legal texts. It is the imperative singular form of the Latin verb conferre.

UMMM....No problem with punctuality here. The writer is telling us to compare this scripture to prove his point.

UMMM....He was wrong. That's my point.

UMMM....You are wrong. That's my point also.

 

[SarahM777]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

cf. is translated, and can be read aloud, as "compare". It is an abbreviation for the Latin word confer, literally meaning "bring together", and is used to refer to other material or ideas which may provide similar or different information or arguments. It is mainly used in scholarly contexts such as in academic articles (mainly humanities, physics, chemistry, and biology) or legal texts. It is the imperative singular form of the Latin verb conferre.

UMMM....No problem with punctuality here. The writer is telling us to compare this scripture to prove his point.

UMMM....He was wrong. That's my point.

UMMM....You are wrong. That's my point also.

Sorry Stephen,

The comma break comes after Once the church of Christ was established and Christianity was given its initial presentation (cf. Colossians 1:23),

the apostolic office faded from the scene along with the age of miracles.

What he is showing is that the Gospel was presented
This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

comma break,

then they ended. He is not using it as a prove text for the office ending,he is using it as a text as to the presentaion of the gospel.

Basic English 101.

Plain and simple you misread it.

 

[SarahM777]

Stephen,

Why did James write that whole passage about seeking healing if the gifts were not ending? Does that make any sense at all? Why even have to do that if the miracles were still going to happen? What was his point then? Doesn't that present a bit of a conundrum? If one could go to someone to be healed in an instant then why tell them to go to the elders and pray? How does that make any sense at all? Isn't that a bit of confusion?

 

[Stephen63]

If you actually read what the Bible showed they RECEIVED THE BAPTISM by the laying on of hands BY THE APOSTLES. Every time outside of Pentecost it was by the laying on of hands. Which the apostles were commissioned by Christ to do so. Which if you actually read the article he makes that point.

I never said God does not answer pray. What I said was what is NOT done these days is people being healed like this in a MOMENT

I read it.

Perhaps you ought to practice what you preach, instead of believing what others tell you. The Baptism of the HS was received by laying on of hands & without:
Acts 2:38 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[HR][/HR]Acts 4:31 (KJV) [SUP]31 [/SUP]And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
[HR][/HR]Acts 5:32 (KJV) [SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
[HR][/HR]Acts 10:44 (KJV) [SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.[SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

'Guess you didn't read it. If you can't keep up, stay on the porch.

 

[SarahM777]

I read it.

Perhaps you ought to practice what you preach, instead of believing what others tell you. The Baptism of the HS was received by laying on of hands & without:
Acts 2:38 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[HR][/HR]Acts 4:31 (KJV) [SUP]31 [/SUP]And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
[HR][/HR]Acts 5:32 (KJV) [SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
[HR][/HR]Acts 10:44 (KJV) [SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.[SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

'Guess you didn't read it. If you can't keep up, stay on the porch.

Sorry about that,I need to go back and double check what I was trying to say,what I meant to say it was by the laying of hands or in the witness of an apostle.

 

[Stephen63]

Stephen,

Why did James write that whole passage about seeking healing if the gifts were not ending? Does that make any sense at all? Why even have to do that if the miracles were still going to happen? What was his point then? Doesn't that present a bit of a conundrum? If one could go to someone to be healed in an instant then why tell them to go to the elders and pray? How does that make any sense at all? Isn't that a bit of confusion?

Luke 5:17 (NASB) [SUP]17 [/SUP]One day He was teaching; and there were some Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was present for Him to perform healing.

This scripture speaks plainly that Jesus didn't always heal the way people believed He did. He was led by the Holy Spirit just like we are.

The Bible says that on the day of Pentecost the 120 spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4)

No gift can be operated unless the Holy Spirit moves upon the christian to do it. It's Him or nothing.

You attended TWO Pentecostal churches & never heard this? This is common knowledge among us.

We're always told to pray; But we're not always led by the Spirit to pray for a miracle. The Holy Ghost has to lead us in order for this to be done. That is why they were told to go to the elders, for they were expected to obey the Spirit.

 

[presidente]

Sorry about that,I need to go back and double check what I was trying to say,what I meant to say it was by the laying of hands or in the witness of an apostle.

That's called making up a rule for God that He doesn't make up for Himself. Saying He will only do something under X circumstances. You look for some kind of pattern of how God did things and argue he won't do things unless it fits that pattern.

For example, since all the people we see doing baptized were Jewish, you could argue that only Jews could baptize, and that grace will only work that way. Or you could make up a rule and try to tell God that He can only save people when Jews are present or at least know the people evangelizing. You could also argue that God will only save people born in the first centuries AD or BC since all the people in the New Testament would have been born during that time period.

And we could just ignore the fact that the Bible doesn't teach these rules and restrictions on how God operates, and even contradicts them.

 

[Stephen63]

Brace your speaking in Love, stevestephen

True, though, cessationists DO believe in miracles, I am pretyt sure, sarasara would agree, and, that they are not done by people per the ceasationist belief but they ARE done by God .

So, yes, that person sara7s researched speaks for things of no good Truth, and, stephensteve exposes it's audacity and atrocity of thought very ,very well.

Wouldn't you agree, sarasevens

Remember how Jesus dealt with the scribes & pharisees that challenged Him? He spoke to "certain" people that way, but not to everybody

 

[MidniteWelder]

[QUOTE/sarahm777] 3.Once the last apostle died, the means by which miraculous capability was made available was dissolved.With the completion of God’s revelation to humanity, now available in the Bible, people living today have all that is needed to be complete and to enjoy the fullness of Christian existence
[/QUOTE]


Well Sarah...it's more that this was all that God needed to provide
"in order for those to believe in that which has not been seen."

From Christ back, there was more physical proof than most see now.

We are in that time and are part of those people Jesus talked of...believing without seeing
believing without needing proof

God asks that we believe first.... before he reveals himself
Not God show himself so that we may believe afterward.

A miracle can happen, but not if one demands God show them first and THEN they will say
"Ok now I believe"

There is plenty of scripture to back this including when it was said about praying
when you pray believe that you have already received, as opposed to keep on going of the same thing over and over until God answers ones prayer.

For those who don't actually believe miracles can happen these days, I kind of feel sorry for them
Because likely God will never dignify a response to such a person within showing them one.
Just as with the principle Christ demonstarted when they were beating him saying
"Prophecy ! Prophecy who hit you"
Its the same attitude
SHow ME SHOW ME THE MIRACLES FIRST!!! Oh men and women of God

Yet at the same time, it is understood that some don't need a miracle to believe.
Thats is a blessing too if thats the attitude some are taking here.
Because that motive would be proper

Yet denying the power of the holy spirit at any time or age just because one has not witnessed his awesome power,
is actually wrecklessly close of "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof."


Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 33
33And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’


Even Christ himself did say as we can read in Matthew 28:18
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always,
to the very end of the age.

Matthew 9:29
Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”

He said according to your Faith, not according to ones reluctance to be shown proof otherwise
Like one guilty until proven innocent
God is not the one lacking until he must prove himself


Why lay on of hands ? Not that it is neccessary, yet we can see that it is beneficial, quite possibly for reasons one may not fully understand.
But does anybody remember when the lady touched Jesus' cloak and immediately ...
without Christ seeing this happen
not only did he Know but he Felt that Virtue had left him.
There's a hint for you.

Did you ever not just know, but also feel..Gods presence within you?

The bible may be all that one needs to believe, to get started to get to know God personally

Although His light isn't something we just see to believe.
His presence is something to be felt as well.
God isn't finished doing his work here.