Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

[presidente]

UMM Did the Isrealites continue in all their time to see miracles? Or was there times when it appeared God was silent? You can NOT show from the Bible they did continue all the time. IT'S NOT THERE. No where in the Bible can you show that God did signs and wonders in a continuing pattern. It's not there. The pattern is God showed the signs and wonders and then they ceased. That is the pattern. What Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13 is in agreement with that pattern. The main sign always was and will be is that JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD. They testified to that fact the signs and wonders confirmed that.

We live in a different age. The Bible tells us that in the last days, God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh. We still live in that same age now.

Of course, Jesus resurrection is central to the faith, and we must believe in that to be saved, whether God has done signs and wonders in our midsts or not.

Paul says HE SAW THE RISEN LORD and was APPOINTED BY THE LORD HIMSELF. When you say he didn't see the Lord that is a direct contradiction of what Paul said. He was a witness as one born out of time.

What are you talking about. I did not say that Paul had not seen the Lord. I said he does not meet the requirements that Peter mentioned. He had not been with the Twelve from the time of John the Baptist.

He was 'born out of due time' the KJV says. Look it up. He was like a baby born too early. The Greek word is a word for a premature infant.

1 Corinthians 9
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?

The requirement was seeing Jesus risen from the dead.

Paul had seen Jesus rise from the dead, but he does not say that this is a requirement to be an apostle. Apply that reasoning to the other questions. Do you have to be an apostle to be free? No. I am free, and not a slave in the earthly temporal sense. Does that automatically make me an apostle?

These three questions list reasons why he deserved to live of the gospel. He does not state that apostles had to have seen Christ. Did Barnabas or Timothy see the risen Christ? If so, why would Paul say that Christ appeared to him 'last of all' if he knew men personally who had seen Christ after him?

 

[GreenNnice]

Remember how Jesus dealt with the scribes & pharisees that challenged Him? He spoke to "certain" people that way, but not to everybody

Just because 'they' judge you of your salvation does not mean you keep your face facing them from the one side and keep on judging them back. I'm being a little tongue in the 'cheek' but I think you get what I'm saying, brother

But, yes, you debunked her research quite well, that's the Truth that you use to do it ,and, as I said, you did it well. But, that still does not give the right not to speak in Love. And, if you are speaking in Love then roll this off your cheek

 

[Stephen63]

Sorry about that,I need to go back and double check what I was trying to say,what I meant to say it was by the laying of hands or in the witness of an apostle.

Doesn't matter, you'd still be wrong.
Acts 9:10-17 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, [SUP]12 [/SUP]And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [SUP]16 [/SUP]For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ananias was NOT an apostle.

 

[presidente]

Stephen,

Why did James write that whole passage about seeking healing if the gifts were not ending? Does that make any sense at all?

To me your question makes no sense. Why would James saying to call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him in the name of the Lord mean people weren't getting healed through statements like 'be healed in the name of Jesus Christ'? That doesn't make any sense. That's an idea you have, but the text says nothing about it.

Prayer and commanding things to happen aren't two unrelated categories of things. Jesus gave the teaching about telling the mountain to go into the sea and not doubting and then it would happen, and then told them about prayer.

Matthew 21:21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. [SUP]22 [/SUP]If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Peter prayed before he raised Dorcas from the dead. Jesus prayed before healing Lazurus. Peter praying didn't mean God couldn't heal through a command. Jesus praying did not mean He could not heal through the spoken word.

Why even have to do that if the miracles were still going to happen?

Peter prayed and Dorcas was raised from the dead. Are you saying that wasn't a miracle?

What was his point then? Doesn't that present a bit of a conundrum? If one could go to someone to be healed in an instant then why tell them to go to the elders and pray?

Why are you assuming the healing through the elders prayer can't be instant?

How does that make any sense at all? Isn't that a bit of confusion?

I don't see the confusion. And if God heals instantly or a little slower, that's fine with me. I He heals instantly in response to the spoken word or through a prayer, that's fine withe me. People who command healing usually pray, too. I'd be surprised if the apostles didn't pray some while they were doing this stuff.

 

[Stephen63]

Just because 'they' judge you of your salvation does not mean you keep your face facing them from the one side and keep on judging them back. I'm being a little tongue in the 'cheek' but I think you get what I'm saying, brother

But, yes, you debunked her research quite well, that's the Truth that you use to do it ,and, as I said, you did it well. But, that still does not give the right not to speak in Love. And, if you are speaking in Love then roll this off your cheek

Titus 1:10-16 (KJV) [SUP]10[/SUP]For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [SUP]11 [/SUP]Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. [SUP]12 [/SUP]One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. [SUP]13 [/SUP]This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [SUP]14 [/SUP]Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 1:15 (NLT) [SUP]15 [/SUP]Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted.

Nothing the righteous says is pure or right to them, because they are corrupt, using carnal understanding as their wisdom.

These are the "certain" ones Jesus spoke to like that.

 

[Stephen63]

Once a Christian refuses the work of the Holy Spirit as stated in scripture, what other understanding is left?
When the Holy Spirit is blasphemed & grieved, He may no longer manifest Himself within that person. So, what kind of understanding might such a person have besides carnality?

 

[GreenNnice]

Once a Christian refuses the work of the Holy Spirit as stated in scripture, what other understanding is left?
When the Holy Spirit is blasphemed & grieved, He may no longer manifest Himself within that person. So, what kind of understanding might such a person have besides carnality?

I'm just saying let your zygomatic bones and flesh upon them speak in Love and let the Lord lead the 'turning.' brother.

We do nothing, we present things and the Lord helps them become strong in doctrine, and, far as 'defiler' and 'unbeliever' words, this can apply to believing in the HOly Spirit's work happening on EArth through others and through them, but, this is STILL not an unbelief in God, our same, sure, foundation whom we put our trust and faith and salvation, if that makes any sense.

OH < YES ! Spriitual gifts are important, there's no question, they're crucial to our faith, as He leads us to believe in them, that is, as, not all speak in tongues or heal people or prophecy. And, those that do, desiring to know what your doing is a question of faith and does one need that 'faith' more from Him, I don't know. But, I believe that God can heal through me and HAS in the past and will in the future, and , I won't even know He is doing it because He won't tell me but, through faith, whenever I lay hands on people, which I have done, I believe that they are healed by His power !

 

[my_adonai_]

So its like the Holy Spirit is shut out from moving withing a congregation because there is a possibility that those who perform such signs and wonders could purvet the church?
its like saying, seducing spirits are bigger than the Holy Spirit?

Well i have been in a lutheran church all my life except the past couple of years, yet i do not know if it is a LCMS or not. but i have being seeing changes, and the Holy Spirit works in many in this church. and we have had many seminars where people are healed, and demons are cast out and all the works that the Apostles did in Acts, are done.

Gotta love it when lies are easily debunked when the Word of TRUTH is acted upon and we see THE WORKS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT vivid in these SEMINARS.

 

[my_adonai_]

People miss heaven because of rejecting the gifts of the Holy Spirit. and the very works of the Holy Spirit.
i mean who do you accredit the very healings and miracles that happen to those GOD uses to heal people?
cripples walking, blind men seeing, deaf hearing? Do you want to SEE that to believe that? Thomas type?
then Seek the Lord on that, and ASK HIM to show you that.

do not give glory to what GOD does to satan. because GOD has used Many IN CC, to basically heal people. and do ALL sorts of things.

 

[SarahM777]

To me your question makes no sense. Why would James saying to call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him in the name of the Lord mean people weren't getting healed through statements like 'be healed in the name of Jesus Christ'? That doesn't make any sense. That's an idea you have, but the text says nothing about it.

Prayer and commanding things to happen aren't two unrelated categories of things. Jesus gave the teaching about telling the mountain to go into the sea and not doubting and then it would happen, and then told them about prayer.

Matthew 21:21
[/COLOR][SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. [SUP]22 [/SUP]If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Peter prayed before he raised Dorcas from the dead. Jesus prayed before healing Lazurus. Peter praying didn't mean God couldn't heal through a command. Jesus praying did not mean He could not heal through the spoken word.




Peter prayed and Dorcas was raised from the dead. Are you saying that wasn't a miracle?



Why are you assuming the healing through the elders prayer can't be instant?



I don't see the confusion. And if God heals instantly or a little slower, that's fine with me. I He heals instantly in response to the spoken word or through a prayer, that's fine withe me. People who command healing usually pray, too. I'd be surprised if the apostles didn't pray some while they were doing this stuff.

UMMM So are you saying when God healed Hanna so she could have Samuel that she received one of the gifts of the Spirit? Are you implying that the old testament believers received the gifts of the Spirit? Would anyone say that all the Old Testament believers had the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Because if not then the Bible is showing a DISTINCTION between what Jesus and the Apostles did,and how God did work in the lives of even the old testament believers,the time between and the time after. It's redefining what the Bible shows as miracles,signs and wonders and trying to make E,F and G to be A,B and C. They are NOT the same thing.

 

[SarahM777]

People miss heaven because of rejecting the gifts of the Holy Spirit. and the very works of the Holy Spirit.
i mean who do you accredit the very healings and miracles that happen to those GOD uses to heal people?
cripples walking, blind men seeing, deaf hearing? Do you want to SEE that to believe that? Thomas type?
then Seek the Lord on that, and ASK HIM to show you that.

do not give glory to what GOD does to satan. because GOD has used Many IN CC, to basically heal people. and do ALL sorts of things.

But on the hand are these warnings taken seriously?

Matthew 24

24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’



So obviously Jesus is telling us that both false messiahs and prophets would come. He is telling us they would be able to cast out demons,and perform signs and wonders. They honestly believe they are His. They even say didn't we do these in your name. They can do those things. Obviously Jesus is telling us not to take it on the surface that those doing those things may NOT be His.
So is Jesus telling us to ignore the very real possibilty that just because one claims to do these things,they very well may not be His? Or He is warning us to TEST them and the spirits behind it? Is Jesus saying this for His own sake or for the sake of those of those who are His?

 

[presidente]

So obviously Jesus is telling us that both false messiahs and prophets would come. He is telling us they would be able to cast out demons,and perform signs and wonders. They honestly believe they are His. They even say didn't we do these in your name. They can do those things. Obviously Jesus is telling us not to take it on the surface that those doing those things may NOT be His.

This is a very legitimate concern. But there are two ways to deal with it. One way is to reject God's gives to make sure we don't get Satanic imitations. The other is to accept spiritual gifts, but be discerning. It seems like a lot of churches opt for the former way, which is 'easier' in a way. But it is still disobedience.

Jesus warned of false prophets in Matthew 7. But in Matthew 23, He said He would send prophets. So there are true prophets and there are false prophets. Exercising a spiritual gift is not proof that one is a false prophet.

 

[Stephen63]

Check this out!
Faith Lutheran Church � About Faith Lutheran

 

[Stephen63]

A Spirit filled LCMS

Our Redeemer Lutheran Church, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, About Us, Ministries, Spiritual Resources, Bible Study Opportunities, Youth Programs, Preschool, LCMS, LWML, Ohio District LCMS

 

[Stephen63]

Spirit filled services:

Grace Lutheran Church, LCMS | Sharing Christ's love through forgiveness, faith, and fellowship

 

[Stephen63]

Spirit-filled family of servants :

Bethany Lutheran Church

 

[Stephen63]

Through spirit-filled worship you will be empowered to grow in Christ through the life-changing Word of God

Brookfield Lutheran Church-LCMS Brookfield, WI, 53045 - YP.com

 

[jimmydiggs]

A Spirit filled LCMS

Our Redeemer Lutheran Church, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, About Us, Ministries, Spiritual Resources, Bible Study Opportunities, Youth Programs, Preschool, LCMS, LWML, Ohio District LCMS

I think you're making quite a leap by taking "spirit-filled" which a cessationist will use as well, and turning it into a continuationist-only term.

I'm not a particularly hard core cessationist, but I'm not sure I could be described as continuationist. I tend to be closer to the center.

 

[Stephen63]

St. Paul Lutheran Church and School

Empowered by God's Word and Sacraments, we are a Spirit-filled family of disciples whose mission is to spread the love of Jesus by reaching, teaching and leading others with the power and grace of God.

 

[Stephen63]

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Participating in Spirit filled worship.

Holy Redeemer Lutheran Church, Dryden, MI - Home Page


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[FONT=Arial,Helv,Helvetica]Providing discipleship opportunities for members to discover and grow in the use of their unique God given spiritual gifts, skills, talents, treasures and interests to provide encouragement and opportunities to serve God and each other.


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