Attack of the seventh day adventists

[KohenMatt]

Praise God. I am okay with that, however to the weaker brother or sister, Using that name could cause one to slip. by saying, well I call Him by the Hebrew name and that makes me righteous, when in reality it does not. Sometimes we think of ourselves as so holy and righteous, that we forget that God was born a man in stinking stable, a place where the homeless slept. But I am so mighty,cause I call Him Yeshua.

I try to take a similar approach with the various Hebrew words our churches. For instance, if I say Torah, a lot of people will cringe. If I use the phrase "teaching and instruction" or commands, that's a little more palatable. I'm not always good at it though.

I think it's important to understand who you're talking to and what kind of language they speak, or where they're at. Speaking over the top of their understanding or their familiarity can lead to a breakdown in communication.

 

[KohenMatt]

Then, your comment, it's syntax, it's choice of words, and it's lack of a point was a worthless diversion. WHY DID you make it? I know you answered, I think you prevaricate, I will never know, that's between you and God. I really don't care. I wanted the whole thing clear for others.

Looks like things are a little more clear, and praise God for that.

Have a good night Tannar

 

[Kerry]

I try to take a similar approach with the various Hebrew words our churches. For instance, if I say Torah, a lot of people will cringe. If I use the phrase "teaching and instruction" or commands, that's a little more palatable. I'm not always good at it though.

I think it's important to understand who you're talking to and what kind of language they speak, or where they're at. Speaking over the top of their understanding or their familiarity can lead to a breakdown in communication.

Dude, I hat to be the one that breaks this to you, But Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Hebrew nor Greek. Yet at the same time He speaks all languages on the Earth and so do the angels and so does Satan. The Name Jesus is recognizable amongst all nations and all tribes. Just like the word Hallelujah, it is known in all tongues. Because that is the name that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[KohenMatt]

Dude, I hat to be the one that breaks this to you, But Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Hebrew nor Greek. Yet at the same time He speaks all languages on the Earth and so do the angels and so does Satan. The Name Jesus is recognizable amongst all nations and all tribes. Just like the word Hallelujah, it is known in all tongues. Because that is the name that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

The debate about Hebrew vs. Aramaic still continues, so it's not a 100% knows fact either way. It's a debate and argument I rarely, if ever get involved in because of the division it causes. I use the Hebrew over Aramaic because that is much more common in Israel today and in the world than Aramaic. But regardless.....

I agree with what you said about God speaking in all languages. I believe that's the "speaking in tongues" that you see in Acts. Regardless of what language you speak, or even if you have a lisp in a particular language, God knows you, He saved you and He loves you. And similar to what you said, when every knee bows before Him, we won't be bowing before His name, but before HIM.

 

[danschance]

It's also written : " For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. "
1 John 5:3 ( KJV )
That means the commandments are not just " obsolete rules " to follow !
The commandments also express the true nature of God.
Hence, if you really love the true nature of God, you also love His commandments.
If you don't love His commandments, then you don't love the true nature of God.
For His commandments express His true eternal nature !
And if you love His commandments, you keep them !
All of them, including Sabbath! For they are not grievous !

The word "commandment" is ambiguous. It can refer to many things. It can refer to God's moral law, the Mosaic law, God's new covenant of love/grace and it can refer to all of the above. I am certain John is not referring to the Mosaic laws here, but God's moral laws which will remain for ever. The Mosaic laws were fulfilled by Christ and clearly do not belong as law to the New Testament believer. However, in this epestle John gives us his definition of "commandments"

23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.24 Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. 1John 3:23,24

Please note how John never mentions anything about the Mosaic laws in his definition of comandment!


If I picked up a single jigsaw puzzle piece I could make some assumptions about the puzzle as a whole. You can imagine how inaccurate my assumption might be by only dealing with one puzzle piece. The only way to accurately describe the puzzle is to view it when it is completed. It is the same with scripture. You lift one scripture up and declare it covers the entire new testament.

You have taken a verse out of context and claimed it supports your argument and failed. Don't let a cult pound extra meaning into scripture that is not there. You need to question and study on your own because we are warned of false teachers and false prophets who will deceive many.

 

[danschance]

It's also written : " For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. "
1 John 5:3 ( KJV )
That means the commandments are not just " obsolete rules " to follow !
The commandments also express the true nature of God.
Hence, if you really love the true nature of God, you also love His commandments.
If you don't love His commandments, then you don't love the true nature of God.
For His commandments express His true eternal nature !
And if you love His commandments, you keep them !
All of them, including Sabbath! For they are not grievous !

Now how is it that you can quote 1 John 5:3 which does not mention the Sabbath and claim it proves the Sabbath is still one of God's "commandments" which we are to follow?

23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. 1 John 3:23, 24

The above passage defines explicitly what John means when he says commandments. Unfortunately you have twisted this to mean something it clearly does not mean.

If the Sabbath is still a commandment show me the verses in the New Testament where we are commanded to keep it. Don't just toss out the word "Commandment" and claim it is speaking of the Sabbath. Prove it to me.

 

[TannarDarr]

Dude, I hat to be the one that breaks this to you, But Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Hebrew nor Greek. Yet at the same time He speaks all languages on the Earth and so do the angels and so does Satan. The Name Jesus is recognizable amongst all nations and all tribes. Just like the word Hallelujah, it is known in all tongues. Because that is the name that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

AS He read from the Septuagint, he knew Greek as well.

He was a businessman. The language of business was Greek. Same as other countries tend to learn ENglish, had Jesus wanted to make tables and bowls for people He had to speak their language.

 

[TannarDarr]

The debate about Hebrew vs. Aramaic still continues, so it's not a 100% knows fact either way. It's a debate and argument I rarely, if ever get involved in because of the division it causes.

Why was the Septuagint written by the HEBREW SCHOLARS???

Why was there NO Hebrew copies of text until Qumran?

WHERE did the language go at that time?

 

[TannarDarr]

The word "commandment" is ambiguous. It can refer to many things. It can refer to God's moral law, the Mosaic law, God's new covenant of love/grace and it can refer to all of the above. I am certain John is not referring to the Mosaic laws here, but God's moral laws which will remain for ever. The Mosaic laws were fulfilled by Christ and clearly do not belong as law to the New Testament believer. However, in this epestle John gives us his definition of "commandments"



Please note how John never mentions anything about the Mosaic laws in his definition of comandment!


If I picked up a single jigsaw puzzle piece I could make some assumptions about the puzzle as a whole. You can imagine how inaccurate my assumption might be by only dealing with one puzzle piece. The only way to accurately describe the puzzle is to view it when it is completed. It is the same with scripture. You lift one scripture up and declare it covers the entire new testament.

You have taken a verse out of context and claimed it supports your argument and failed. Don't let a cult pound extra meaning into scripture that is not there. You need to question and study on your own because we are warned of false teachers and false prophets who will deceive many.

1 JOhn's focus on commandments was ONE commandment, LOVE.

If you guys need me to show why I say that, lemme know.

LIkewise if you get that one right, you keep all the rest as a result.

 

[TannarDarr]

Now how is it that you can quote 1 John 5:3 which does not mention the Sabbath and claim it proves the Sabbath is still one of God's "commandments" which we are to follow?



The above passage defines explicitly what John means when he says commandments. Unfortunately you have twisted this to mean something it clearly does not mean.

If the Sabbath is still a commandment show me the verses in the New Testament where we are commanded to keep it. Don't just toss out the word "Commandment" and claim it is speaking of the Sabbath. Prove it to me.

SO, your position is, "Commandments" means anything BUT the Decalogue?

That's an interesting way to stack the deck, eh?

 

[Hizikyah]

Another contibuting factor to misinterpretation is that the books of the "New Testament" are "Greek documents." The fact that the "New Testament" texts we have are in Greek, makes them no more "Greek documents" than the Septuagint (Greek) version of the Old Testament, which the rabbis wrote into Greek 200 years before Yeshua. The rabbis did this (as did someone at some point with the "New Testament" letters), for the benefit of the non-Jewish world so that they could also learn of the God and faith of Israel. Thus, the "New Testament" documents remain Hebrew texts written in a Hebrew mindset, and must be studied that way, if we are to determine what the authors' meanings are. And until we learn the true original meaning, discussing "what the verse means to us" (as is done in many so called "studies") is a an exercise in futility and leads to error.
Having said that, there is overwhelming evidence, both historical and linguistic that shows that the texts were originally written in Hebrew, and also that Hebrew was not a "dead language" (as was thought of for quite some time). A good source of information on the latter is "Biblical Archaeology Review" (BAR) magazine. BAR has had articles in the past few years on digs that have unearthed documents from around the first century written in Hebrew, including legal documents and one woman's personal diary.
Other sources testifying to Hebrew being the language of 1st century Jews and a Hebrew origin of the "New Testament" documents include:
1. Recent Qumran findings (Dead Sea Scrolls) shows secular documents written at that time concerning "current events" (i.e., not just copies of old religious texts.) indicating Hebrew was a "living" language. There are several books on the Dead Sea Scrolls available. Contact YashaNet for recommendations if interested.
2. Jewish coins found from that era are minted with Hebrew text on them.
3. A study of the writings of the Christian "Church Fathers" shows that much of the "New Testament" was written in Hebrew. This includes direct statements made by; Papias, Ireneus, Origin, Eusubius, Epiphaneus, Jerome and Clement of Alexandria.
4. The prominent first century historian Josephus wrote in both his books, Antiquities and Wars, that Hebrew was the language of first century Jews and that they did not know Greek. (In fact there is a Jewish tradition saying it is better to eat swine than learn Greek.)

 

[TannarDarr]

HOW can you "Love" God, and crap on the day he established as special for us to remember Him on?

That's like sitting there with your child at someone elses birthday party and telling them they will never have a birthday party. How do you think that makes them feel?

How do you think HE feels, LOVED, or like you are in it all for self?

 

[Hizikyah]

1 JOhn's focus on commandments was ONE commandment, LOVE.

If you guys need me to show why I say that, lemme know.

LIkewise if you get that one right, you keep all the rest as a result.

Revelation 22:12-15

 

[TannarDarr]

Revelation 22:12-15

If you think that holds bearing on what I've said, you'll have to show me...

Cause it's part of the parcel.

 

[Hizikyah]

If you think that holds bearing on what I've said, you'll have to show me...

Cause it's part of the parcel.

Yahshua says a few things people will be rejected for, but certianly someone that TRULY love Yahweh and their neighbor would never do these things, not implying you said any different just showing that if one claims to love they wouldnt go against anything Yahweh says. (v15)

It was kinda meant to dynamically support love while showing its scope.

 

[TannarDarr]

Yahshua says a few things people will be rejected for, but certianly someone that TRULY love Yahweh and their neighbor would never do these things, not implying you said any different just showing that if one claims to love they wouldnt go against anything Yahweh says. (v15)

It was kinda meant to dynamically support love while showing its scope.

Okies. I'm so accustomed to conflict at every post, I had to ask....

 

[danschance]

SO, your position is, "Commandments" means anything BUT the Decalogue?

That's an interesting way to stack the deck, eh?

No, I never said that or implied that. You have grossly misrepresented my two posts into a straw man argument.

I said:
1) The term "Commandments" is ambiguous. However one but can often be determined what is meant by "commandment(s)" by context.

2) John explains what he meant by commandments and he did not mean the 10 commandments. He said:
"23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.24 Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. 1 John 3:23, 24"

John clearly states that what he means by Commandments is:
1) Believe in Jesus
2) Love your fellow man.

He never mentions Sabbath.

Prove to me the Sabbath is a viable New Testament command for us today by showing me where it is affirmed in the New Testament.

 

[Josh321]

No, I never said that or implied that. You have grossly misrepresented my two posts into a straw man argument.

I said:
1) The term "Commandments" is ambiguous. However one but can often be determined what is meant by "commandment(s)" by context.

2) John explains what he meant by commandments and he did not mean the 10 commandments. He said:
"23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.24 Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. 1 John 3:23, 24"

John clearly states that what he means by Commandments is:
1) Believe in Jesus
2) Love your fellow man.

He never mentions Sabbath.

Prove to me the Sabbath is a viable New Testament command for us today by showing me where it is affirmed in the New Testament.

it's too simple for people sadly that's why they all miss it, look at the pharisee they were never ecpecting the messiah to come like that they figured it would be someone from their group or their denomination to come, God works in simplicity but simple is just too much for some people? alot of people here haven't even got to the first part of his commandment that is why they're clueless

 

[TannarDarr]

No, I never said that or implied that. You have grossly misrepresented my two posts into a straw man argument.

I never said you said that. I asked a question. You HAVE said you hold the position the Sabbath is no longer. That was part of the Decalogue for the purposes of this chat. That was it's own covenant/promise from God. And we all have read, if you break one part of the covenant, you forsake the whole covenant.

So, what I asked is to discover the "impact of unforseen consequences." To hold your statements as true, I don't see how you can do ANYTHING but forsake the decalogue. If I'm wrong, asking the question will show me.

IF you make a position statement, and do not fore see the affect it has on the big picture, pointing that out and having you own it as long as you hold the position is NOT against the logic of argument, NOR reality.

I said:
1) The term "Commandments" is ambiguous. However one but can often be determined what is meant by "commandment(s)" by context.

The context of John was the decalogue, specifically LOVE GOD, which keeps the rest in tact. In fact JOHN bases ALL OF YOUR SALVATION, on if you can love or not. JESUS said the RIGHT kind of love was to love as GOD DOES, which is providential even for his enemies.

If you love Him, you will be keeping the commandments as a result.

2) John explains what he meant by commandments and he did not mean the 10 commandments. He said:
"23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.24 Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. 1 John 3:23, 24"

So, ummmm, again, you would argue that the Levitical law holds a LOVE GOD law? It's laws were to help with the Decalogue by defining it.

OR do you just refer to JESUS commandments Love God and neighbor? Because JESUS was explaining which were the greatest of the Decalogue. hehehe so THERE WE ARE AGAIN! And I have to ask, how can you LOVE GOD, but crap on the day HE made HOLY for US TO REMEMBER his work at creation? heheheeheheh You have a real dilemma when the unforseen consequences are carried out when examining the impact of your claims past the surface....

John clearly states that what he means by Commandments is:
1) Believe in Jesus
2) Love your fellow man.

He never mentions Sabbath.

No shame. No shame.... hehee

Prove to me the Sabbath is a viable New Testament command for us today by showing me where it is affirmed in the New Testament.

JESUS DEFENDED THAT COMMANDMENT MORE THAN ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT AS HE WAS ESTABLISHING HIS CHURCH AND TEACHING OF how it would be going forward.

If you don't trust JESUS, OR GOD in Genesis 2/3, then I dunno what to tell you. Putting your hopes over their statements is a bit hubristic to my view.

You can tell I'm a stickler for the debate and want to pick at it until I have it all down and understand it? I mean, it's all in the learning process for me, but I GET how I come across, I challenge everything. If you are right the challenge doesn't hurt, if you are wrong, you probably needed to know yo uwere wrong, we should all win.

Anyway, I grew up Southern Baptist. What does that tell you of my first thirty years of theological belief? HOW do you think I was taught to treat the Sabbath?

Now, when I got in an argument with a dear friend who has one of the most exemplary walks with God I know of, who is seventh day adventist, but not an EG WHITE sycophant, just a student of the Bible, SHE drove me over TWO WHOLE AND COMPLETE YEARS to have to change my views to fit scripture.

You can NOT claim you love GOD and forsake the day he said for ADAM, father of MANKIND EN TOTO, not just the Jews, that the Seventh day was made holy.

God doesn't make it HOLY FOR HIMSELF to remember. That's Dense. It was OF COURSE made Holy for Adam's benefit. The ark of the covenant wasn't HOLY TO GOD, it was HOLY TO MAN. IT WAS GOD!

Now, all the levitical laws for the jews on how to keep the Sabbath..... yeah we can shove those to the side. IF you love GOD and honor the Sabbath, HE will teach you how to do it right. It's not about what you do on the Sabbath, NOR what you don't do on the Sabbath. It's about honoring God and remembering.

People say, "I remember GOD all day long" I don't need the Sabbath day. So, I ask them if they remember GOd while they observe nudidity at their computer, while they show up late for work and bill work for all their time, while they speed down the highway, OR ARE THOSE TIMES you put GOd out of your life?

To say you honor God all day everyday, is most likely a lie you tell yourself. <<< IN GENERAL yourself, I can't speak for YOU personally.

 

[cfultz3]

asparagus is not horse raddish, doesthat mean you can't eat either of them?

STOP IT, No one is so stupid to let you out of this with such silly posturing.

YOU POSTED A COMMENT JESUS IS > THAN PAUL TO MAKE A POINT WHEN JOSH POSTED A PAULINIAN VERSE.

There is only TWO possible conclusions from that.

ONE you posted it to prove a point, if so how is the point NOT saying JESUS overrides Paul's verse so you winthe point there...?

OR....

That you just totally lost your ever loving mind, didn't have your glasses on, couldn't find it in the carpet, and just posted a random verse that had NOTHING to do to connect with the chat. EITHER WAY, you aren't looking to hot.

Did you go to school for this act? Or does it come natural?

[video=youtube;gCExE_KIkpA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCExE_KIkpA[/video]​