The Book of Daniel

zone · Sep 19, 2013

This thread is created to discuss the Book of Daniel: primarily approaching it as a document predicting actual events future to Daniel, events we can now confirm happened.

the idea for the thread was developed here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/68560-atheists-41.html < click post #804+

things to consider:

Historicity
Various scholarship concerning the dating of the Book
Other resources.

add to this list any ideas you have - both that would aid in the study, and things which may cause problems.

okay then...zone

PLEASE CITE ALL SOURCES USED, and reference anything you used to support your claim

.......

ProphetExcalibur · Sep 19, 2013

I bought and read a book about 25 yrs. ago by Phillip Mauro, Daniel 70th weeks; (I believe this is his name and the name of his book). I've moved and most of my books are where I cannot get to them for awhile. The Book changed my life, forever! But he also spoke of some of Daniel's other prophecies, like in Dan. Ch. 11 I believe of the king of the north and the king of the south etc... He named Augustus, King Herod, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, and Brutus, and others, right up to the time of Christ. I've read other peoples thoughts concerning the fulfillment of these prophecies, but I believe his were right on. Both pertaining to Daniel's 70th Wk. and the a fore mentioned Ch. 11 That's all I have. Just wanted to know have you ever read this book, I believe he wrote this back in the 1800s. How can anyone think the Book of Daniel is not authentic?

zone · Sep 19, 2013

The Seventy Weeks
and the Great Tribulation
A Study of the Last Two Visions of Daniel,
and of the Olivet Discourse of the Lord Jesus Christ
by Philip Mauro
Written in 1921, revised in 1944

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1921_mauro_seventyweeks.pdf < click

zone · Sep 19, 2013

Apologetics Press

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity

by Garry K. Brantley, M.A., M.Div.

CRITICAL SCHOLARSHIP, DANIEL, AND THE SCROLLS
INTEGRITY OF THE TEXT
DATE OF THE BOOK

Apologetics Press | Bible Contradiction | < click

IntoTheVoid · Sep 19, 2013

What I've picked up so far in early research is that Daniel makes a lot of prophecies, not outright claims but stuff about horns representing cities etc, that sort of stuff. Also looking at fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls that might suggest that some chapters check out earlier than maybe some people assumed.

Other stuff I've picked up so far is that critics are under the impression that maybe there was a 2nd author who wrote the prophecies after they actually happened in an effort to inspire the Jews. A date for the book has been given based in when the prophecies stop being accurate and start becoming less accurate, so that's the point when it's assumed to be written.

Just posting this to say what I've picked up on initial basic searching. I'm not swinging either way yet lol

zone · Sep 19, 2013

IntoTheVoid said:

cool.

"A date for the book has been given based in when the prophecies stop being accurate and start becoming less accurate, so that's the point when it's assumed to be written."

and that's the point where we (you and i) can see they've been wrong. since they misunderstood the last part of one chapter.

Pen014 · Sep 19, 2013

thanks for the links. that's a lot to study though.

zone · Sep 22, 2013

Pen014 said:

well, we can verify that Daniel accurately predicts events well in advance of them, and we can go straight to chapters 9, 10, 11 & 12.

we can just go right to 11 and start there.

let me know....a few days is all we need. one doesn't have to believe in God to be able to check what's written in Daniel with the Historical Record.
though it's without question the idea and best for the eternal soul to BELIEVE IN HIM and, FEAR Him.

fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
once we know He is Real and True, that fear can turn to peace love and joy....having been reconciled.
that's the goal.

the alternative is not the goal.

Married_Richenbrachen · Sep 23, 2013

One thing I've always been confused about with Daniel is chapter 12:1 - 4. The way it talks, it seems as this point occurs straight after the events of chapter 11. But I think chapter 11 is describing the events up to the coming of Jesus, and destruction of Jerusalem. The verses in chapter 12 seem to describe the time of the end (e.g. many that sleep in the earth shall awake).

Daniel 12:1 - 4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.[SUP]4 [/SUP]But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

zone · Sep 25, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

hey MR.
this part here is an hebraism or figure of speech:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

it's talking about the nation as a whole which had basically "gone to sleep" between Malachi and John the baptist & Jesus. think of the ten virgins...5 are said to fall asleep, while the others stay awake.

the prophecy of Daniel was time specific and bound by the parameters of it being for and about his people and the holy city.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy,

it's limited to the final days of israel the nation and jerusalem:

Daniel 10:14
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Jesus instructed His disciples the same - He said THAT generation would not pass until ALL came to pass (all that was about THEM - per Daniel):

Matthew 24
32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

cont...

zone · Sep 25, 2013

Daniel 11:36
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined...

this was Herod.
it's telling us the indignation (70AD) will eventually be finished.
and Herod will live beyond that time.

this:

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.3

is about FIRST awakening to Christ and new life (then about eternal destiny based on that)

and matches this:

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

this was a display of the resurrection, but no one here is said to be for shame or contempt.

there was a DIVISION among the people Israel because of Jesus. i believe that's all that's meant by the passage in Daniel 12.

Luke 3
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

examples:

Isaiah 60:1
"Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.

Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

Romans 13:11
And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

cont...

PennEd · Sep 25, 2013

Do not listen to the heresies of Zone. I am convinced that her last post is the root of her hatred of Israel and the Jews. Read the WHOLE of Matthew 24. For her to try and cherry pick and twist Jesus' words to try and make them fit Herod, should be disturbing to all Christians. Brothers and sisters, we know the Jews did not accept their Messiah, but to think that God is done with them and that it is just coincidence that they have remained a people, through the centuries, enduring every manner of hatred and persecution, and after 2000 yrs. ARE BACK IN THE SAME LAND, called ISRAEL, is the height of unbelief in God's word. Through history God has used evil and ungodly people to punish the Jews for THEIR unbelief. But there WILL be a remnant of the Jewish people IN THE LAND, that will accept Jesus. Let God deal with the Jews.Don't align yourself with todays evil and ungodly who continue to hate and persecute them. Our task is to love them and persuade as many as we can that Jesus is the Messiah.

Married_Richenbrachen · Sep 25, 2013

PennEd said:

Heresy is a very serious accusation, and (I believe) should only be used for unbelievers. I have not once seen a post from Zone that puts her in such a category.

Proverbs 27:5 - 6Open rebuke is better than secret love.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Perhaps what you find unpleasant about Zone is that she is unafraid to state which of your own beliefs are false? I'm not saying I agree with everything she has said, but for the prophet Daniel to give us a 70 week time frame, and to have those weeks put on hold or stretched out indefinitely is illogical.

You would do well to remember what Jesus Himself says about those who call themselves Jews, but are not, but who are really a synagogue of Satan. Don't make the mistake of treating harsh love as sweet hatred.

zone · Sep 26, 2013

PennEd said:

i'll just ignore the bulk of your rant....you're a dispensationalist. that tells me everything i need to know.

as for this particular lie:

but to think that God is done with them

i've never, ever, not one time said God is "done with them". who talks that way?
i've never said that or indicated that in any way - BECAUSE IT ISN'T TRUE.

God is not through saving. GOSPEL. heard of it?

jews get saved the same way gentiles get saved.

THE GOSPEL. riight now or not at all.

your gospel is some non-existent Land promise gospel which is no gospel at all.
if you love the jews - GET OUT THERE WITH THE GOSPEL.

tell them the TRUTH - you are NOT in Covenant with God.
you NEED JESUS CHRIST....today.

IntoTheVoid · Sep 26, 2013

I ain't forgotten zone, waiting til i finish these stints of 12 hour shifts

Married_Richenbrachen · Sep 27, 2013

zone said:

Thanks for the link. I like it. I just wish I could read faster and remember more.

So my understanding of the chronology as spelled out is thus:

457BC - Cyrus gives decree to rebuild Jerusalem (start of 70 sevens count).
408BC - (7 sevens completed - not sure of the significance - walls & street rebuilt in troubled times?)
__4BC - Birth of Christ.
_26AD - Commencement of Jesus ministry (completion of 69th seven).
_29AD - Jesus crucifixion (midst of the 70th seven).
_33AD - Completion of the 70th week
_70AD - Destruction of Jerusalem

I might be out by a year due to the 1BC - 1AD thing. Please correct if something is wrong. The other dates I have found for Cyrus are out, but as described in pdf, this is perhaps due to Ptolemy incorrectly guessing a period of history?

Married_Richenbrachen · Sep 28, 2013

ProphetExcalibur said:

Awesome read. Thanks for mentioning it, and thanks again Zone for posting a link to it. I so much prefer paper books though - my eyes are tired from staring at the screen for so long! (I didn't want to print it, 'cause then I'd just have a tonne of papers with nowhere to put 'em).

I suppose I was a little disappointed at the end, about the gospel references to the sun being darkened, moon not giving its light/turning to blood, and the stars falling from the sky. If these things are only figurative, it means I have to revise some of my thinkings, which isn't really bad I suppose, but just not as exciting.

Do others feel these things are not literal?

Another point, was Cleopatra referred to as king of the south (p 58, Daniel 11:40), or is that her acting on behalf of her younger brother? Its just a bit strange if she's the queen for the bible to say king, although if she is acting on behalf of the king, I understand.

Does this interpretation of Daniel (Phillip Mauro, Daniel 70th weeks) have a special term to describe it?

Are there any secular sources that give the year of Cyrus' decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC? (I'm suspecting no).

Also, the year of Jesus' crucifixion in my previous post summary should have been 30AD, not 29AD.

PennEd said:

You should read this book, PennEd. Its quite interesting, and you might find you learn something you didn't know.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1921_mauro_seventyweeks.pdf

PennEd · Sep 28, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

UGH!!! Right off the bat you used a saying that has driven me crazy for yrs. I even hear advertisers say it or a variant of it and it gets me ill!

"you might find you LEARN something you DIDN"T KNOW"

Even typing it gave me a bit of nausea! How can you learn something that you ALREADY know?!!!!!

Sorry, I now return you to your regularly scheduled reading of Zone's hateful Anti-semitism, already in progress......

doulos · Sep 28, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

Dan 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

You might want to do a little more research. Remember this part of the book of Daniel was written to the Jews telling them about their future. Out of all the restorations decrees recorded in the Old Testament the only one that meets the Scriptural requirement (including rebuilding the wall) was the one issued by Artaxerxes in 444BC. Remember friend we must look through the eyes of the prophet if we want to understand. Was a year to Daniel the same as a year is to us? Daniel used a year based on 360 days our calendar uses a day that is 365 ¼ days. So we can’t use our years. History is recorded based on our calendar so it is necessary to do a little math to figure this out. 69 x 7 = 483 483 of Daniels 360 day years equals 476 of our years. If we go from 444BC and go 483 of Daniels years (476 of ours) into the future we come to 32AD, the year of the crucifixion.

So why are the 69 weeeks divided into two groups one of seven weeks and the other 62. Once again let’s start at 444BC and go 49 of Daniels years (48 of our years) into the future we come to 396BC. Is this important? Sure it is. 396BC is the year the book of Malachi was written which ended the prophecy and vision to the Jews.

GRA · Sep 28, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

I did a study on this some time ago -- best I remember, the numbers ended up something like this:

GRA said:

"It seems like we are in the same ballpark..."

Married_Richenbrachen said:

I believe those references describe literal occurrances -- and are not only figurative.

Married_Richenbrachen said:

Noted...

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