Old Testament Christophany?

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L

LT

Guest
#1
#1
I do not see any scripture that supports Jesus being present in the Old Testament. Every example of a Christophany seems to be either the presence of an angel, or a Theophany.

If you believe that Jesus was the 4th man in the fiery furnace, the angel that Jacob wrestled with, or the 3rd man who was talking to Abraham, please give an explanation of how this is Biblical. (Please use the Bible, not explain your personal version of how the Trinity works)

From my understanding of scripture, Jesus humbled Himself into the form of a man only once, but also permanently: when He was born to Mary.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#2
#2
LT said:
I do not see any scripture that supports Jesus being present in the Old Testament. Every example of a Christophany seems to be either the presence of an angel, or a Theophany.

If you believe that Jesus was the 4th man in the fiery furnace, the angel that Jacob wrestled with, or the 3rd man who was talking to Abraham, please give an explanation of how this is Biblical. (Please use the Bible, not explain your personal version of how the Trinity works)

From my understanding of scripture, Jesus humbled Himself into the form of a man only once, but also permanently: when He was born to Mary.
Click to expand...
who is the "son of man"?
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#3
Jul 28, 2012
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#3
I think before you can understand the theophanies of the Old Testament, there are some things about the nature of God that must first be understood.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#4
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#4
IMO, any appearance of the angel of the lord was the pre-incarnate Christ, i.e., the logos. Jesus had not yet been born.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#6
Sep 4, 2012
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#6
I believe this was Christ

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as head of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Joshua 5:13-15​
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#7
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#7
No one has seen God the Father ever; the Holy Spirit is spirit - Preincarnate Christ, Christ in His Glory before coming to earth - Isaac wrestled with a man calling him God, giving him the work and prerogative of God, Isaiah 6, Daniel, Moses


Be careful when you say things that make it sound like Jesus was created
 
O

overcomer2

Guest
#8
#8
Maybe I should have used the word Son instead of Jesus. You know he was around at the beginning of the Earth too. He has and is and will always be God, even in the Old Testament.
 
L

LT

Guest
#9
#9
I definitely wasn't saying Christ was created; I said He humbled Himself into the form of a man.
I still don't understand where in scripture it shows Christ as being apart from the Father before the Incarnation(the virgin birth)
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#10
Jul 28, 2012
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#10
LT said:
I definitely wasn't saying Christ was created; I said He humbled Himself into the form of a man.
I still don't understand where in scripture it shows Christ as being apart from the Father before the Incarnation(the virgin birth)
Click to expand...

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5.
 
L

LT

Guest
#11
#11
I feel like that verse supports my claim, instead of refuting it.
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#12
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#12
someone had said the Character of God - that the Father - no one has ever seen: That the Holy Spirit is spirit comes upon people. If it is a trinity does Jesus do nothing in the OT?

The places where it looks to be Christ pre-incarnate you would have to see what it says - does the text designate the person as God

Issaac - The -ish was not a man - because he said there was no man there - the -ish calls himself God - you have wrestled with God, the -ish gives Isaac a new identity, and blesses him

Isaiah - He is describing God on the throne - Jesus is the direct representation of God

Moses - -ish said take off your sandals for this is holy ground - only God makes things holy

I am sure there is more than what I am saying - you can probably look up a ton of things online about it and come to your own conclusions and convictions
 
L

LT

Guest
#14
#14
It takes a very specific view of the trinity to come up with this interpretation. All of you seem to be saying that anything physical of God is the Son. Where does the Bible define the Son as the only physical image of God? I am not even sure that the Bible speaks at all about the way the Trinity works...
Please don't take this the wrong way. I am trying to learn from you all, not cause dissension. Correct me in love please.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#15
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
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#15
LT said:
It takes a very specific view of the trinity to come up with this interpretation. All of you seem to be saying that anything physical of God is the Son. Where does the Bible define the Son as the only physical image of God? I am not even sure that the Bible speaks at all about the way the Trinity works...
Please don't take this the wrong way. I am trying to learn from you all, not cause dissension. Correct me in love please.
Click to expand...
Would you like to discuss this in email? There a number of things I would enjoy sharing with you on this.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#17
#17
selfish..........
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#18
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
#18
LT said:
It takes a very specific view of the trinity to come up with this interpretation. All of you seem to be saying that anything physical of God is the Son. Where does the Bible define the Son as the only physical image of God? I am not even sure that the Bible speaks at all about the way the Trinity works...
Please don't take this the wrong way. I am trying to learn from you all, not cause dissension. Correct me in love please.
Click to expand...
Jesus is the visible form of the one true GOD. The is no evidence suggesting otherwise:

[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9​
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#19
#19
LT, why do you have to cause trouble? :) I know you are just curious.
Colossians 1:15 should answer your question.
God bless you in your search
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#20
#20
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Jesus is the visible form of the one true GOD. The is no evidence suggesting otherwise:

[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9​
Click to expand...
aww, you beat me to it! why did it take me so long to type
 
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