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B
Their problem is coming to terms with God's sovereign opinion.
There are only 2 kinds of people:
a) those who wholeheartedly agree with God, and
b) those who don't, and fuss about it.
Well, you know about the parable, right?
So, the Lord Jesus with his disciples are walking towards Jerusalem. Jesus is explaining to the disciples and bystanders wonderful things.
Jesus: "...For the Kingdom of God is like 9x squared + 20x + 49...
A bystander on the road is perplexed and asks Peter: "What on God's good Earth is the Master talking about?"
Peter: "Oh, be of good cheer; it's just one of His many Parabolas."
BPie
There are only 2 kinds of people:
a) those who wholeheartedly agree with God, and
b) those who don't, and fuss about it.
Well, you know about the parable, right?
So, the Lord Jesus with his disciples are walking towards Jerusalem. Jesus is explaining to the disciples and bystanders wonderful things.
Jesus: "...For the Kingdom of God is like 9x squared + 20x + 49...
A bystander on the road is perplexed and asks Peter: "What on God's good Earth is the Master talking about?"
Peter: "Oh, be of good cheer; it's just one of His many Parabolas."
BPie
uh.....Israel wasn't geographically lost.
Jesus went for them, and found them.
right where they were supposed to be.
just like the Bible said He would.
when He did.
since then, there's no difference IN CHRIST or without Christ.
you're either just plain lost or just plain found.
British Israelism is outlandish and debunked a long time ago.
The problem that so many have with the concept of a rapture is -- allowing themselves to be in agreement with the fact that the definition of the word 'rapture' should be the "minimal" definition of the word. If they cannot "custom design" their own definition to include every little detail they believe is associated with the rapture - "they just will not have it"...
Please see this post / thread.
Please see this post / thread.
I have no clue what your general theological views about the rapture are, and it does not matter. The point is that some cling to this single word and others are offended, while their definition of the event may be completely different.
G
Thank you very much. I appreciate knowing that.
Yes -- this is why I continue to put forth the idea that - unless people can agree on the definition and use of the word 'rapture' - they cannot really have a productive discussion concerning it. And, the best possible definition - and probably the only definition that would be acceptable to every point-of-view - is the "minimal" definition. ( "the simple, practical, and elegant solution" )
Yes -- this is why I continue to put forth the idea that - unless people can agree on the definition and use of the word 'rapture' - they cannot really have a productive discussion concerning it. And, the best possible definition - and probably the only definition that would be acceptable to every point-of-view - is the "minimal" definition. ( "the simple, practical, and elegant solution" )
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R
I believe it will be between the destruction of the 7th(short) world empire and the start of the 8th world empire, at the end of the 49th year (7 weeks) in the 70 Weekd prophecy - that would be on Jerusalems 50th anniversary in June 2017.
www.rapture-date.com Got to head out to church - have a Great day !
www.rapture-date.com Got to head out to church - have a Great day !
You are so correct. I wonder if this is the reason?
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie...
...as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie...
...as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
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L
Where exactly is the word RAPTURE in the bible?God warned Noah and told him to prepare by building the ark and then when the rain came he was able to escape into the boat with his family.That was done right before the flood came it will also be right before destruction this time as well.Persecution of Christians is going on at this very minute as horrible as this is.People should really get a correct definition of wrath and it's meaning verses Tribulation and it's meaning.These do have different meanings.
For any Pre-Tribber out there, I would like you to explain the below passage because I think it absolutely destroys your theory. So the Rapture is supposed to happen before the Tribulation? The saints in heaven are supposed to come down at the Rapture and the believers caught up? Then everyone goes back to heaven, right? The Lord then comes after the Tribulation to kick Satan's butt, correct? Okay, how do you explain the below and please read the entire passage as it all fits together:
2 Thes 1-2:
4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders...
Focus on the beginning highlighted parts. Starting with:
patience and faith (of the Saints)
Where do we find this? Revelation 13:10:
9 "If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
This passage is given clearly during the reign of Anti-Christ. This passage can also be found in Rev 14:12:
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus..."
If the Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation and any Christian on earth is a new believer, why do they need patience? Heck, they are new Christians.
But here is the real killer for the Rapture theory.
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
Paul is talking to the Church at Thessalonica. More specifically saved Christians. Why is Paul telling these Christians that they will rest with us (Paul included?) when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God? There isn't supposed to be any vengeance at the Rapture. That happens at the Second Coming. Where else do we see this flame or flaming of fire being associated with the Second Coming?
Isa 29:6: "You will be punished by the Lord of hosts With thunder and earthquake and great noise, With storm and tempest And the flame of devouring fire."
Isa 30:30: The Lord will cause His glorious voice to be heard, And show the descent of His arm, With the indignation of His anger And the flame of a devouring fire, With scattering, tempest, and hailstones.
Rev 1:14: "His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire
Rev 19:12: "His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself."
Joel 2:
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations. 3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them. 4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run. 5 With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble, Like a strong people set in battle array.
When is Jesus revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels? At the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet just as He always said and just as Paul and John have confirmed.
Rev 11:
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev 15:
5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues,
Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns.
THE DEBATE IS OVER!! NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.
2 Thes 1-2:
4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders...
Focus on the beginning highlighted parts. Starting with:
patience and faith (of the Saints)
Where do we find this? Revelation 13:10:
9 "If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
This passage is given clearly during the reign of Anti-Christ. This passage can also be found in Rev 14:12:
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus..."
If the Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation and any Christian on earth is a new believer, why do they need patience? Heck, they are new Christians.
But here is the real killer for the Rapture theory.
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
Paul is talking to the Church at Thessalonica. More specifically saved Christians. Why is Paul telling these Christians that they will rest with us (Paul included?) when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God? There isn't supposed to be any vengeance at the Rapture. That happens at the Second Coming. Where else do we see this flame or flaming of fire being associated with the Second Coming?
Isa 29:6: "You will be punished by the Lord of hosts With thunder and earthquake and great noise, With storm and tempest And the flame of devouring fire."
Isa 30:30: The Lord will cause His glorious voice to be heard, And show the descent of His arm, With the indignation of His anger And the flame of a devouring fire, With scattering, tempest, and hailstones.
Rev 1:14: "His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire
Rev 19:12: "His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself."
Joel 2:
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations. 3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them. 4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run. 5 With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble, Like a strong people set in battle array.
When is Jesus revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels? At the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet just as He always said and just as Paul and John have confirmed.
Rev 11:
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev 15:
5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues,
Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns.
THE DEBATE IS OVER!! NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.
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T
The problem with doctrine these days is, people listen to "Mr Personality" on the web, rather
than actually reading a "REAL" Bible (Not a man made Bible, but a REAL one). And with
the group that actually reads the Bible, they don't pay attention to what they read.
Case in point:
1. Kingdom of God is NOT the same thing as Kingdom of Heaven. God chose DIFFERENT
terms to describe different situations.
2. Day of Christ Jesus is NOT the day of the Lord. Once again, DIFFERENT terms to describe
different situations.
People are taking scripture and applying it to the wrong event. They think the situations
are the same, and get confused, or allow themselves to be decieved.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by
word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
See the BOLD words "the day of Christ?" That is NOT the second coming. The term
is different from "the day of the Lord", to tell you, to inform you, "we are discussing
something else here." Clue in on it. Stop trying to apply information of the "Day of Christ"
to the "Day of the Lord." Its not the same deal. The rapture happens. That IS the Day of Christ.
than actually reading a "REAL" Bible (Not a man made Bible, but a REAL one). And with
the group that actually reads the Bible, they don't pay attention to what they read.
Case in point:
1. Kingdom of God is NOT the same thing as Kingdom of Heaven. God chose DIFFERENT
terms to describe different situations.
2. Day of Christ Jesus is NOT the day of the Lord. Once again, DIFFERENT terms to describe
different situations.
People are taking scripture and applying it to the wrong event. They think the situations
are the same, and get confused, or allow themselves to be decieved.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by
word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
See the BOLD words "the day of Christ?" That is NOT the second coming. The term
is different from "the day of the Lord", to tell you, to inform you, "we are discussing
something else here." Clue in on it. Stop trying to apply information of the "Day of Christ"
to the "Day of the Lord." Its not the same deal. The rapture happens. That IS the Day of Christ.
K
The rapture is true or did the Holy Spirit allow Paul to record a lie. You know that satan's great attempt is to show God to be a lie. Thats why he so bent on the destruction of Israel. Because of God's promise to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Then His promise to David, That he would have a son to sit on the throne of Israel forever, not just Judea, but ISRAEL. God must bring this thing to an end at some point and when He does, will he destroy people that trust in Him. That would not be a righteous God and God goes out of His way to maintain His righteousness. We shall not all sleep. End of story and we do not know when it will happen, but the fig tree has blossomed and the days of Noah are at hand. He who was ears to hear let him hear.
Context, context. Read the whole chapter. You can't use one verse and make it fit with what you choose.
Who is God really talking about here?.........
2 Thess 2:9-12: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness"
This kind of reminds me of that scripture that speaks of God handing people over to the lusts of their hearts, those who worship the creature and not the Creator.
We're told that these deceptions will be so believable that "if possible" it would deceive even the elect, but no believer will be deceived by it, since believers have the wisdom of God and not the wisdom of the world. The lost do not have the helmet to protect their heads so are open to deception and many will perish because they didn't receive the love of the truth that they might be saved. They will believe the lie.
1 Cor 1:18-19: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
The Jews required a sign and the Greeks required wisdom. They were given Jesus Christ crucified. They would not accept this or the simplicity of the message preached and thought it foolish. Jesus Christ proved Himself through miracles and His words, but they still didn't believe. The simplicity of this message was wiser than their earthly wisdom because it had power to save those who would believe. God is the source of true wisdom, not those in the world who seek after earthly wisdom. As He says here in James 4:6: "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble"
It is noticeable today how people twist scriptures to fit with their personal view, rather than accepting what the scriptures say. Look at all the unbiblical theologies out there. Many utilize certain passages that are difficult to understand, to promote their own ungodly purpose. As scripture says: "let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall incur a stricter judgment"
Who is God really talking about here?.........
2 Thess 2:9-12: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness"
This kind of reminds me of that scripture that speaks of God handing people over to the lusts of their hearts, those who worship the creature and not the Creator.
We're told that these deceptions will be so believable that "if possible" it would deceive even the elect, but no believer will be deceived by it, since believers have the wisdom of God and not the wisdom of the world. The lost do not have the helmet to protect their heads so are open to deception and many will perish because they didn't receive the love of the truth that they might be saved. They will believe the lie.
1 Cor 1:18-19: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
The Jews required a sign and the Greeks required wisdom. They were given Jesus Christ crucified. They would not accept this or the simplicity of the message preached and thought it foolish. Jesus Christ proved Himself through miracles and His words, but they still didn't believe. The simplicity of this message was wiser than their earthly wisdom because it had power to save those who would believe. God is the source of true wisdom, not those in the world who seek after earthly wisdom. As He says here in James 4:6: "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble"
It is noticeable today how people twist scriptures to fit with their personal view, rather than accepting what the scriptures say. Look at all the unbiblical theologies out there. Many utilize certain passages that are difficult to understand, to promote their own ungodly purpose. As scripture says: "let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall incur a stricter judgment"
G
2 Thessalonians 2:
[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
"Would you say that 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' in verse 1 and 'the day of Christ' in verse 2 are referring to the same thing?"
[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
"Would you say that 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' in verse 1 and 'the day of Christ' in verse 2 are referring to the same thing?"
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