The Book of Daniel

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Perhaps this is off-topic, but again, I feel I must address at least once.

[...]but I just can't abide holocaust deniers who belittle the immense suffering the Jewish people endured and I have seen her at least partially deny the holocaust.

I haven't seen anyone on this site deny any holocausts. Either way, how can one partially deny a holocaust? Either it happened, or it did not - it couldn't partially happen. Can a lady be partially pregnant? To question the validity of historical accounts or numbers is not denial. It could be that you are actually denying the worst Jewish holocaust in history (70AD), if Philip Mauro's study is correct! How would that make you feel?

She also blames some combination of America and Israel for 9/11

As most intelligent people knowing the facts and minus an agenda tend to do.

and I never hear her admonish Muslims, instead she consistently bashes Jews, especially regarding land squabbles [...]

I understand Christians might not always get on, but attacking the character of a sister in Christ isn't a valid debate tactic. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Philip Mauro's study.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

I did a study on this some time ago -- best I remember, the numbers ended up something like this:

"It seems like we are in the same ballpark..."
457 B.C. - The decree went forth to rebuild the city.
445 B.C. - The wall of the city is built in 52 days.
405 B.C. - The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.
- 3 B.C. - Christ is born in Bethlehem.
- - - - -- ( Remember that there is no year 0. )
-30 A.D. - Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.
- - - - -- ( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )
-34 A.D. - Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth.

Thank you again! So, for the years from 3BC to 70AD, I think there is also good secular history to support these (right? - I mean, everyone knows we call 1AD that because it was around the time Jesus was born, he was crucified at ~age 33, Jerusalem destroyed in 70AD). Not that we need secular history to confirm the bible for us, but it might help convincing others.

However, what about the first 3 events? Cyrus' decree (and from reading the study, it needs to be Cyrus' decree), the rebuilding of the wall, and the rebuilding of the city? Your date of rebuilding of the city would put it at 52 years from Cyrus' decree, which is after the 7th seven, which confirms with the prophecy splitting 7, 62 and 1.

 

[GRA]

Thank you again! So, for the years from 3BC to 70AD, I think there is also good secular history to support these (right? - I mean, everyone knows we call 1AD that because it was around the time Jesus was born, he was crucified at ~age 33, Jerusalem destroyed in 70AD). Not that we need secular history to confirm the bible for us, but it might help convincing others.

However, what about the first 3 events? Cyrus' decree (and from reading the study, it needs to be Cyrus' decree), the rebuilding of the wall, and the rebuilding of the city? Your date of rebuilding of the city would put it at 52 years from Cyrus' decree, which is after the 7th seven, which confirms with the prophecy splitting 7, 62 and 1.

One thing that is important to note is - that the 62-year span mentioned in Daniel 9:26 starts at the '7.5' point in the 70 weeks and ends at the '69.5' point in the 70 weeks. ( This is why I said "they are not" in post #21 - it is not a simple matter of adding 62 to 7. )

Christ is crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

The 'one week' in Daniel 9:27 is the 70th week.

 

[GRA]

One thing that is important to note is - that the 62-year span mentioned in Daniel 9:26 starts at the '7.5' point in the 70 weeks and ends at the '69.5' point in the 70 weeks. ( This is why I said "they are not" in post #21 - it is not a simple matter of adding 62 to 7. )

Christ is crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

The 'one week' in Daniel 9:27 is the 70th week.

OOPS!

'62-week'

 

[GRA]

One thing that is important to note is - that the 62-year span mentioned in Daniel 9:26 starts at the '7.5' point in the 70 weeks and ends at the '69.5' point in the 70 weeks.

By the knowledge of this fact alone, we know that the 70th week is not "separate" from the other 69 weeks.

In other words - all 70 weeks "came and went" - unbroken - fulfilled...

And, it is given to us by what I like to call 'the grammar of the language'.

EDIT: ( With a little verification by historical record... )

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

By the knowledge of this fact alone, we know that the 70th week is not "separate" from the other 69 weeks.

In other words - all 70 weeks "came and went" - unbroken - fulfilled...

And, it is given to us by what I like to call 'the grammar of the language'.

EDIT: ( With a little verification by historical record... )

I missed that point until you spelled it out. So the 7.5 week and 69.5 week is still within the scope of the prophecy (7 and 62), but because we have used part of the 70th week already, you can't justify any sort of gap without actually breaking up the 70th week itself.

Another question (in addition to those before), Matthew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

While I'm disappointedly leaning toward a figurative interpretation of this passage, you mentioned you believed it could also be literal? If this is also literal (i.e. with tribulation ending in 70AD), do you think this has already happened (stars fell, sun darkened, moon not giving light then), or how can it apply literally (because the scriptures also say immediately after)?

 

[GRA]

I missed that point until you spelled it out. So the 7.5 week and 69.5 week is still within the scope of the prophecy (7 and 62), but because we have used part of the 70th week already, you can't justify any sort of gap without actually breaking up the 70th week itself.

Another question (in addition to those before), Matthew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

While I'm disappointedly leaning toward a figurative interpretation of this passage, you mentioned you believed it could also be literal? If this is also literal (i.e. with tribulation ending in 70AD), do you think this has already happened (stars fell, sun darkened, moon not giving light then), or how can it apply literally (because the scriptures also say immediately after)?

I suggest that the Abomination of Desolation occurred just before 70 A.D. -- marking the beginning of the tribulation - not the ending of it.

I suggest that we have been in the tribulation period ever since -- the ending of it is still future -- at which time, most ( if not all ) Christians on the earth will have been beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast, etc.

After that -- the two witnesses and the trumpet events...

After that -- the Second Coming of Christ - 'rapture' first and 'wrath' last - with some other stuff in between...

This conclusion is "very well studied" --- anyone who might call me crazy - please feel free to answer my questions in my Olivet Discourse 'study' thread ( see my signature ) with some semblance of Biblical sanity and reasoning...

EDIT: *** Especially with regard to Luke 21:24...

 

[GRA]

...at which time, most ( if not all ) Christians on the earth will have been beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast, etc.

Yes --- there will be a remnant -- not everyone will be killed - I believe the 144,000 are likely to be that remnant...

 

[GRA]

While I'm disappointedly leaning toward a figurative interpretation of this passage, you mentioned you believed it could also be literal?

"Well -- don't lean too fast or furious. Look at the descriptions of the trumpet events #1-#6. Uncanny resemblance, don't you think?"

EDIT: Please see the chart in my Order of Events 'study' thread... ( see my signature )

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

"Well -- don't lean too fast or furious. Look at the descriptions of the trumpet events #1-#6. Uncanny resemblance, don't you think?"

I won't! I would be quite thankful if I don't have to put away this particular cherished belief!

I saw the chart, which looks pretty useful, and the reference to where Isaiah talks about the same thing (sun, moon and star issues). I haven't had chance to read through the 3 threads in your signature properly yet. I trust these put forth your view on the 70 weeks?

Why does Jesus talk about great tribulation (none like it before or after), if we're still in it? It just seems to me like a long time to be tribulating... If your 3 signature threads answer this, just say - I regretfully don't think I'll have time to read today, but hopefully this week.

 

[GRA]

I won't! I would be quite thankful if I don't have to put away this particular cherished belief!

I saw the chart, which looks pretty useful, and the reference to where Isaiah talks about the same thing (sun, moon and star issues). I haven't had chance to read through the 3 threads in your signature properly yet. I trust these put forth your view on the 70 weeks?

Why does Jesus talk about great tribulation (none like it before or after), if we're still in it? It just seems to me like a long time to be tribulating... If your 3 signature threads answer this, just say - I regretfully don't think I'll have time to read today, but hopefully this week.

Yes - there is some discussion of the 70 weeks in the Olivet Discourse thread. Other than that, there are just a few "miscellaneous" posts... :

"Immediately after..." (Matthew 24:29) - post #17
"Immediately after..." (Matthew 24:29) - post #23
Daniel 9:27 blunder... - post #27

 

[GRA]

Sorry, zone -- I don't mean to derail your thread --- but then, [ at least most of ] what I have to say actually supports your intent for this thread...

 

[AvalonXQ]

So, no evidence or arguments against the historical-critical interpretation? You guys just pretty much pretend it doesn't exist?

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

So, no evidence or arguments against the historical-critical interpretation? You guys just pretty much pretend it doesn't exist?

Care to elaborate?

 

[AvalonXQ]

See posts #28 and #31.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Is there any evidence refuting this understanding of the text?

The book itself? You think Daniel could have lived from Nebuchadnezzar's reign until some 300 years after, to write it in 163BC? Your reasoning is a bit beyond what I can even begin to explain, but what's the purpose of recording a prophecy for events half of which have already happened?

As a general rule, I am especially wary of Wikipedia when it comes to matters of religion and Jesus Christ. It seems to me that many of the moderators of Wikipedia are the spiritual descendants of the ones who crucified Christ, and are quite happy to attempt to marginalise His role in world history.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

"Well -- don't lean too fast or furious. Look at the descriptions of the trumpet events #1-#6. Uncanny resemblance, don't you think?"

Okay, I still haven't read those threads yet, but I intend to soon. While I do, I'll ask this question. Is it possible that there have been/will be multiple comings of Christ, or is this a heresy? Just reading through Matthew 24, where its divided into the abomination of desolation part, and then afterward, about the coming of the Son of man (as the days of Noe were). The first part talks about they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, and his angels gathering His elect from the four winds. Then Jesus concludes this with "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Then He goes on to say "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

I know some weird things were recorded as happening around the time of the destruction of the temple (I remember one account said people saw armies or something fighting in the clouds?) And bad things happened to the Jews later when they attempted to rebuild it, and some got burned and buried, and there was talk of getting blue (crosses?) emblazoned into clothes etc. I'm not sure if these accounts are reliable or some crazy talk I read somewhere... (If you know its crazy talk, just say and it might save me checking it out later).

Its just Jesus says "till all these things be fulfilled". Its not really that I want the Great Tribulation to be over (although I do), but it seems to fit better that it is (we don't get persecuted like the first disciples/apostles did).

I trust this is still Daniel related, because the Olivet discourse was mentioned in the study, but feel free to tell me to find another thread if I'm off-track.

 

[GRA]

Okay, I still haven't read those threads yet, but I intend to soon. While I do, I'll ask this question. Is it possible that there have been/will be multiple comings of Christ, or is this a heresy? Just reading through Matthew 24, where its divided into the abomination of desolation part, and then afterward, about the coming of the Son of man (as the days of Noe were). The first part talks about they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, and his angels gathering His elect from the four winds. Then Jesus concludes this with "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Then He goes on to say "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Part of "the whole idea" of the Second Coming study was to determine with certainty how many "comings" of Christ there will really be...

My conclusion is -- there will be a second coming of Christ - there will not be a third coming of Christ.

Please see Olivet Discourse post #62 - and, possibly, the post it quotes from another thread.

I know some weird things were recorded as happening around the time of the destruction of the temple (I remember one account said people saw armies or something fighting in the clouds?) And bad things happened to the Jews later when they attempted to rebuild it, and some got burned and buried, and there was talk of getting blue (crosses?) emblazoned into clothes etc. I'm not sure if these accounts are reliable or some crazy talk I read somewhere... (If you know its crazy talk, just say and it might save me checking it out later).

I do not know much about this. I have rarely if ever even heard of such. It does *sound* a bit like "crazy talk" ( Sounds like one of the many things Satan has come up with to get men to stray from the truth. ) --- I wouldn't put much stock in it without verifiable proof...

Its just Jesus says "till all these things be fulfilled". Its not really that I want the Great Tribulation to be over (although I do), but it seems to fit better that it is (we don't get persecuted like the first disciples/apostles did).

I trust this is still Daniel related, because the Olivet discourse was mentioned in the study, but feel free to tell me to find another thread if I'm off-track.

The 'study' threads may very well answer some of your questions. ( or, a study of the scriptures that is prompted by them )

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

It was apparently Josephus (he also refers to others who saw it, but I doubt any of these were historians), and some guy called Tacitus, who saw the chariots and armies in the sky etc. before Jerusalem's destruction. Again though, no one says they saw Jesus, which I would've thought would be a requirement if this was what Jesus was talking about - "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Can't vouch for the site, but I suspect the historical accounts are accurate as recorded.

Chariots in the Clouds - As Recorded by Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius, and Others

I will continue to read your threads.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The book itself? You think Daniel could have lived from Nebuchadnezzar's reign until some 300 years after, to write it in 163BC?

Is there any evidence supporting it being written by Daniel, rather than it being written by someone else in 163BC?