Free Will vs. Predestination: Why is this even needed to be debated?

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#41
even this is questionable.

A slave can realize he is a slave and seek freedom. Especially if someone comes and offers them freedom.
But its natural. Man is quite happy to be a slave of sin, None seek good, none seek God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#42
But its natural. Man is quite happy to be a slave of sin, None seek good, none seek God.
Ah, But God has sent the HS, Who will CONVICT the world of sin righteousness and judgment. He seeks them.. Thus they have no excuse! Not to mention. We are told they ALREADY know they are a slave and in danger (See rom 1) so again, There is no excuse. Not because God his it from them, but they hid it from themselves. and GOD gave them over to a debased mind..
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#43
Ah, But God has sent the HS, Who will CONVICT the world of sin righteousness and judgment. He seeks them.. Thus they have no excuse! Not to mention. We are told they ALREADY know they are a slave and in danger (See rom 1) so again, There is no excuse. Not because God his it from them, but they hid it from themselves. and GOD gave them over to a debased mind..

This is true man knows and hides it deep down, and yet in the same book you quote, they carry on in their sin.. quite happily. They exchange the truth for a lie! And I agree no man has an excuse, no not one. They are very happy to follow their natural will.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#44
People use semantics, mess with words to support there view, some are not willing to be wrong, or can take a healthy view of their limited knowledge, fallen heart. Humanism pervades all things, even our view of God - but God always defines His character and not us. Even as far as placing incorrect definitions on words, or seeking the "original language" but then using it incorrectly
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#45
This is true man knows and hides it deep down, and yet in the same book you quote, they carry on in their sin.. quite happily. They exchange the truth for a lie! And I agree no man has an excuse, no not one. They are very happy to follow their natural will.

No. This is not true. Why do you think we have people who have what man would say (anything a man would need to be happy) commiting suicide?

granted, People in wealthy countries may think they are happy, because they have so much, But most of the world is searching. Anything they can to find that whole that needs to be filled. That Hole that only God can fill.

God uses this to bring them to a knowledge of him, And it is then they are forced to make a decision. If not for that. Most of us would not even chose to have faith in Christ, why would we need him in the first place?

As Jesus himself said, He came to save sinners, not the righteous. Why do you think that is?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#46
People use semantics, mess with words to support there view, some are not willing to be wrong, or can take a healthy view of their limited knowledge, fallen heart. Humanism pervades all things, even our view of God - but God always defines His character and not us. Even as far as placing incorrect definitions on words, or seeking the "original language" but then using it incorrectly
I think we all fall into this category at times.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#47

No. This is not true. Why do you think we have people who have what man would say (anything a man would need to be happy) commiting suicide?

granted, People in wealthy countries may think they are happy, because they have so much, But most of the world is searching. Anything they can to find that whole that needs to be filled. That Hole that only God can fill.

God uses this to bring them to a knowledge of him, And it is then they are forced to make a decision. If not for that. Most of us would not even chose to have faith in Christ, why would we need him in the first place?

As Jesus himself said, He came to save sinners, not the righteous. Why do you think that is?

Hi eternal,

I didn't mean happy as in 'elated or joyful' I should watch using 'localisms' when writing. What I mean is that man quite wilfully follows his 'own desires' his will.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#48
I think we all fall into this category at times.
Yes - it's important for us to check our motives in arguing our points, do we have an agenda, do we harbor an opinion that gives us a bias? Do these actually line up with Scripture plainly etc
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#49
Yes - it's important for us to check our motives in arguing our points, do we have an agenda, do we harbor an opinion that gives us a bias? Do these actually line up with Scripture plainly etc
I would say for the most part. people just like discussing their beliefs. and want to maybe learn.. However, there are som who are stuck in a rutt. and do not want to discuss, but shove their believe down everyones throats and judge those who do not agree with them..

this is not of God.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#50
Yes - it's important for us to check our motives in arguing our points, do we have an agenda, do we harbor an opinion that gives us a bias? Do these actually line up with Scripture plainly etc

Well, we need to clarify one point here, when debating one always has an agenda, and all our opinions will have a bias. However, I agree with your last part.

Do these actually line up with scripture? That is the important question. Is it the gospel message?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#51
Hi eternal,

I didn't mean happy as in 'elated or joyful' I should watch using 'localisms' when writing. What I mean is that man quite wilfully follows his 'own desires' his will.

yes he is. Just like an alcoholic is quite willfull to drink.

but ask anyone of them to seriously say what they really think, and they will tell you (if they are honest with themselves) they need help.

this is the nature of man. they will to sin, but also know it does not fill that void. Only gives them a temporary high, thus they keep looking. That is why many hit rock bottom..And God uses thes to expose them of their sin and righteousness, and judgment.

this is why no one has an excuse. It is they who chose to reject God. Not God who refuses to allow them to see his truth and give them the ability to find the freedom he offers.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#52
Well, we need to clarify one point here, when debating one always has an agenda, and all our opinions will have a bias. However, I agree with your last part.

Do these actually line up with scripture? That is the important question. Is it the gospel message?
so true. But even this has its biases. Each man seems to have their own gospel message.. so their biases would tend to lead to their gospel.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#53

yes he is. Just like an alcoholic is quite willfull to drink.

but ask anyone of them to seriously say what they really think, and they will tell you (if they are honest with themselves) they need help.

this is the nature of man. they will to sin, but also know it does not fill that void. Only gives them a temporary high, thus they keep looking. That is why many hit rock bottom..And God uses thes to expose them of their sin and righteousness, and judgment.

this is why no one has an excuse. It is they who chose to reject God. Not God who refuses to allow them to see his truth and give them the ability to find the freedom he offers.

Hi Eternal,

I have never said that God does not allow them to see his truth and that His truth will set them free... And I agree God will bring many to rock bottom first to bring them to Himself.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
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#54
so true. But even this has its biases. Each man seems to have their own gospel message.. so their biases would tend to lead to their gospel.
Sadly we see it all the time. we even read this in scripture.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
Hi Eternal,

I have never said that God does not allow them to see his truth and that His truth will set them free... And I agree God will bring many to rock bottom first to bring them to Himself.
yet this is the jist of calvanisms 5 points.

In order for their to be limited atonement only. the statement you just made could not be true. That is why many consider me a hyper calvanist. However, I would rather just be called a child of God. who follows no man..lol
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#56
OP gun and run?
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#57
Did anyone explain Romans 9? I may have missed it.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#58
I would say for the most part. people just like discussing their beliefs. and want to maybe learn.. However, there are som who are stuck in a rutt. and do not want to discuss, but shove their believe down everyones throats and judge those who do not agree with them..

this is not of God.
sounds like the OP