What Laws are still valid to christians

[Elin]

What I said I don't understand why Paul's letters are hard to understand, I meant why he had to make them so hard to understand
by law breakers.

Peter said that his dear brother Paul wrote with the wisdom God gave him. (2Pe 3:15)

That's all I need.

Paul wrote them to believers, not to unbelievers.

So law breakers are unbelievers?

So believers don't want Paul writing with the wisdom which God gave him?

"Sacrifice for sin is always in force."

Atonement has to be made for every sin. Animal sacrifice was the type.

So how is atonement made for every sin?

"We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that
we do not drift away." (Heb 2:1)

"What we have heard" is the message of the gospel;
i.e., the person Christ as the God-man and his work on the cross,
from which greater revelation given through the Son (Heb 1:1-2)
we must not "drift away."

not explicitly but. . .implicitly. He didn't say "now that you have the good news of the salvation
you may ignore what's said in the past" but rather "we must pay MORE careful attention".

That is what context is for.

Now what is the gospel? Isn't it all over the book of Isaiah especially chapter 52?

It is more fully given by the Son (Heb 1:1-2), through the writers of the NT, in the light of which
all Scripture is to be understood.

Wrong. It wasn't the writer who puts the words of Is 8:17-18 in the mouth of the Messiah.
It's the Messiah, who's the Word, spoke through Isaiah and understood by the Hebrew writer
and thus written.

Just as I said.

How do you prove He is the Messiah without examining the whole chapter and even the whole book of Isaiah and even the whole OT?

I don't prove he is the Messiah.

I believe the revelation of the Son (Heb 1:1-2), given through the NT writers, that he is.

Could you pull out 8:20 and say it's not about the Messiah?

I have neither had the prophecies explained to me by Jesus Christ (Lk 24:44-45), nor been given
the authority of a NT revelator to apply Is 8:20 to the Messiah.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What I said I don't understand why Paul's letters are hard to understand, I meant why he had to make them so hard to understand by law breakers. God's wisdom? I guess same as Jesus' parables - one has to keep knocking at the door.

Who said they are hard to understand? Peter said some things are hard to understand, which is true. But everything else is easy to understand... if you have the spirit.

 

[Elin]

Assuming
a. Cornelius and his family were devout, God fearing and prayed to God regularly yet ignored the law regarding clean and unclean, if not the whole law, when the OT was the only scripture available at that point in time.

Assuming is not for me.

I am quite satisfied with the NT word of God as it is written.

 

[Elin]

I think it's important to understand that there's a difference between righteous and holy behavior and
being righteous and holy.

Yep.

"Righteousness" in the NT is right standing before God, because sin has been forgiven
and guilt removed.

It is a verdict of "Not guilty."

In the NT, that is had only in Jesus Christ, by grace through faith.

One's behavior becomes righteous and holy when it is conformed to God's holy
standard. But this does not necessarily make the person, themself, righteous and holy.
However, that was the case for Christ.

Nope.

Christ's behavior didn't make him righteous and holy.
He was born righteous and holy, just as the first Adam was.

Adam sinned and lost his righteousness and holiness.
The second Adam, Jesus, was sinless, and did not lose his righteousness and holiness.

If you want a simple and short answer,

Actually, I prefer a correct answer in agreement with the NT. . .

I'm saying that Hebrews 7 doesn't deal with the Law as it relates to us.
So this passage has no bearing on whether or not we - as human beings - should observe
the Law. The passage deals with the "translated" Christ who is God, the creator
and master of the Law.

. . .and that ain't it!

Christ would not abolish the Law when it is made for sinful Men when there is still sin
in the world. In fact he said he came to fulfill it (i.e. fill it up).

And fulfill it he did, which is why it, with its curse (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10), are now set aside.

It is a holy standard by the which we can measure our actions.
Without it we don't know if homosexual acts are improper

The NT disagrees with you, and says homosexual acts are contrary to nature, contrary to
what is written in our very nature, unnatural (Ro 1:27).

if resting on the Sabbath is right, if eating spiders and rats is wrong,

Both Saturday Sabbath and kinds of food are irrelevant in the NT.

But it has been said that all of these laws are summed up by the laws of love.
That means, in my opinion, that they conform to the laws of love.[/quote]
"It has been said" by somebody somewhere?
How about the word of God?

And in the opinion of the NT, the love written on the heart of the believer doesn't need
regulations to know how to love God and one's neighbor (Mt 22: 37-40; Ro 13:8-10).

This is a confusing point. Because when a human being is translated

Where do we find this "translated" in the NT?

The earthly has always existed alongside the heavenly, but in the case of Christ
the Law that applies to him now is the "translated" one. If that makes sense.
That's not to say there are two distinct Law codes - one earthly and one heavenly.
But that's the jargon Paul uses to make sense of Christ's role as our "High Priest."

Paul didn't write Hebrews.

Nor does the NT word of God say the law has been "translated."

It says it has been set aside (Heb 7:18-19), abolished (Eph 2:15), and replaced
with the law of Christ (1 Co 9:21).

A great many of those sacrificial laws are to be performed by those
God has ordained to perform them.

And by whom and where are they to be performed?

You've been asking a lot of questions, and I'd like to say that I'm happy
to answer them. But right now I'm neither happy nor sad - just kind of bored. lol

I can certainly see why.

All this man-made nonsense is very boring.

I'd like to ask a question though. If you happened to suddenly believe
that the laws of God were a good guide to which our behavior should be conformed, t
hen what would you do?

Actually, I have no Biblical warrant for hypotheticals.

The law of love written on my heart by the Holy Spirit gives me all the opportunities
God would have for me to serve him.

 

[royalscot]

into theWhat are ordinances? And what ordinances are being spoken of?

Hmmm, let's read more of Paul's writings...
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.



service of God. Otherwise it flies in the face of...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

hebrews was not wrote with paul.
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven
.
clearly speaking to jewish people.(how do i know what a teacher or pharisee is. but to the crowd that he was speaking to must have.(jewish people) ie i read it in the bible. 2000 pluss on.
he went to the cross,
died,
rose again ,

before going, telling them to go back and wait for the gift (for short) post 352(my)

27Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the new covenent, post 118 (my)
some things have already been said on this topic, on if your read from the start of this forum

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm actually understanding what you're trying to explain and I'm agree with you.

In my opinion, as far as I can see through the Scripture, the teaching (or ordinances) Of Jesus comes out from His own experience of trying understanding and fulfilled the Law. So that's why His preaching doesn't contrary to the Law but says the same, but just more profound, it's revealed the biggest depth of wisdom of God.

John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

I take a different approach.

I do not think Jesus went around thinking. Thou shalt not lie. Though shalt not commit adultry, Thou shalt not ........ And said to himself. I have to obey the law. So I better listen to the commands.

I think he instead did what people did before the law. What people who were righteous did during the law. And what we as Christians are to do today. Think to themselves. What does God want me to do right now. How can I love others. How can God use me..

He did his fathers will. Thus he did not sin, Not because he followed the law (the law can not tell us how to be good. it does not have that ability or power) But in following his father (the things of the spirit) he never thought of fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus Christ was the LORD who GAVE the Law to Moses. I think He understood it in it's ultimate.

He did understand it

He also understood it could never make him righteous. All it did was speak about him.. It should have led to him. Which is why he said, if you listen to moses, you would have known about me.

He was not sinless because of the law. He was sinnless because he never thought of self.

 

[Elin]

The different words used for 'fulfill' in Matthew 5:17 and
Matthew 5:18 are a good example of where the confusion on the word fulfill is coming from.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

fulfill = pleroo = to fill up

Jesus is not referring specifically to the Mosaic law, but to all of Scripture, often called "the Law,"

or "the Law and the Prophets," or "the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms,"

all three referring to the whole content of Scripture.

He came to fulfill (accomplish) all Scripture concerning him, not to abolish them.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Again, Jesus is referring to all Scripture, not specifically to the Mosaic law.

fulfill = ginomai = to come to pass (of events). There are still plenty of prophecies
that must be fulfilled in this respect (i.e. come to pass). Jesus only fulfilled so many of these
prophecies so far.

Pleroo, present completion, is to accomplish, as in to fulfill all righteousness (Mt 3:15, 4:14).

Ginomai, future completion, is to be accomplished.

Their essential meaning is the same, and their use by Jesus is the same.

The word of God written, the Scriptures, shall stand till the end of time, when they will be needed
no longer because we will hear the word of God spoken, as Moses did.

Mt 5:17-18 is not relevant to the Mosaic law being set aside (Heb 7:18-19), abolished (Eph 2:15)
or replaced with the law of Christ (1Co 9:21), as is seen in the word of God which states that it is.

Mt 5:17-18 relates to the whole word of God written, enduring for all time, till we have
the word of God spoken to replace it in eternity.

 

[Elin]

What are ordinances?

And what ordinances are being spoken of?

Hmmm, let's read more of Paul's writings...

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

the regulations for the tabernacle are not the only ordinances in the Mosaic law.
Many regulations there are referred to as ordinances.

But the Commandments are not.

Relevance to your example of ordinances in Heb 9?

so Paul lied here, there was no previous epistle?

Read my response again.

Do not assume the only instruction the Ephesians had was the single letter that was put into the Bible.

Are you saying that the early church had access to an epistle they knew was from Paul,
and chose to omit it from the Bible?

so Paul lied here, there was no previous epistle?

Read it again.

It says those in the Kingdom will call them least, it doesn't say they will be there.

You could use a better translation.

The law did not fail, because
Jesus did fulfill the Mosaic law,

and because God, to fulfill Ps 110:4,
changed the priesthood in the order of Aaron to the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek,
he also changed the law given on the basis of the Aaronic priesthood (Heb 7:9-12),
setting aside the Mosic law because it was weak and useless to obtain righteousness or salvation
(Heb 7:18-19),
and replacing it with the law of Christ (Gal 6:2), which is the law of God for the NT (1Co 9:21)
but with no curse (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10) attached for not keeping "every word,"
which is a huge difference for the people o God,
and which law of Christ fulfills (accomplishes) the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 10), for

if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols;
if I love my parents, I will not dishonor them,
if I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor murder them,
nor commit adultery with their spouses, nor lust after their possessions,

because love fulfills (accomplishes) the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 10).

God's law for the NT is the law of Christ, which fulfills (accomplishes) the law,
which law in the NT is presented as the Decalogue (Mt 22:37-38; Ro 13:8-10).

The "ordinances" set aside (Heb 7:18-19) were not just the regulations for worship,
but were the whole Mosaic law.

The Law that determined who could and who could not be a Priest is now misconstrued
to contain all of the Law.

You're going in circles. . .this was previously addressed to you here.
To refresh your memory:

Are you saying. . .that many times in the NT, the whole Mosaic law was not referred to,
including by Jesus himself (Mt 5:17, 22:36, 23:23, etc.), as simply "the law"?

Are you saying. . .that "the law" which was "received by the "people," (Heb 7:11)
which was weak and useless to make them perfect; i.e., righteous (Heb 7:18-19),
was just "the law" governing the priesthood,
but the rest of the Mosaic law was able to make them righteous?

Are you saying. . . that changing the priesthood on which the Mosaic law was based,
did not also require a change in the Mosaic law, because then the Mosaic law no longer
had a basis (Heb 7:11-12)?

Your hermeneutic needs a serious workover.

 

[Drett]

hi drett: question - does islam have laws of ritual purification (i.e: hand-washing)?
z

Hi Zone



For prayer or entering a place of prayer a Muslim cleans his hands and feet. Similar to what God commanded Moses and Aaron to do before entering a tent of congregation.

"And Moses and Aaron and His Sons washes. Their hands and their feet thereat;when they went into the tent of the congregation they washed as the Lord commanded Moses."
Exodus 40:32

So we have a good example there. We do not need to ceremoniously wash when we eat.

 

[Drett]

I would be interested in knowing how you observe the laws requiring animal sacrifices.

Good news for Muslims. The meat from animal sacrifices can be given to the poor.

 

[Delivery]

There is only one law that Jesus expects His followers to adhere to. It's the one New testament commandment that replaced the old testament laws of Moses.

13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

This is the all-encompassing commandment that Jesus requires all His followers to obey.

 

[DreaMo]

Incorrect. Jesus said He came not to change the Laws of Moses , but to fulfill the laws of Moses. There are 12 laws now; the 10 original, and the 2 more brought by Jesus; Love one another as I (Jesus) have loved you, and 2) Treat other people the same way you want them to treat you.

 

[Elin]

Are you saying. . .that many times in the NT, the whole Mosaic law was not referred to, including by Jesus himself (Mt 5:17, 22:36, 23:23, etc.), as simply "the law"?

Are you saying. . .that "the law" which was "received by the "people," (Heb 7:11)
which was weak and useless to make them perfect; i.e., righteous (Heb 7:18-19),
was just "the law" governing the priesthood,
but the rest of the Mosaic law was able to make them righteous?

Are you saying. . . that changing the priesthood on which the Mosaic law was based, did not also require a change in the Mosaic law, because then the Mosaic law no longer had a basis (Heb 7:11-12)?

---

John,

The above was not previoujsly addressed to you, as I stated, but to someone else.

Sorry about the mix-up.

 

[Elin]

Incorrect. Jesus said He came not to change the Laws of Moses , but to fulfill the laws of Moses. There are 12 laws now; the 10 original, and the 2 more brought by Jesus; Love one another as I (Jesus) have loved you, and 2) Treat other people the same way you want them to treat you.

Review the thread, that's been fully addressed.

 

[Drett]

Incorrect. Jesus said He came not to change the Laws of Moses , but to fulfill the laws of Moses. There are 12 laws now; the 10 original, and the 2 more brought by Jesus; Love one another as I (Jesus) have loved you, and 2) Treat other people the same way you want them to treat you.

This explanation would suggestion that Jesus is building on the messages from the OT rather than replacing it. If that is the case Christians would have a framework to incorporate God into the running of the country. Loving your enemy is something to strive for on a personal level but does not work well on the international stage. I don't think Jesus had much love for the money changers he chased out of the temple with a stick.

 

[Drett]

Fulfill can have many meanings. One meaning is to carry out. Need to look at Jesus actions to see what the context is for fulfill. Considering just before he ascended into heaven he was telling his followers to learn the law from the pharisees but not do as they do, it starts to become apparent to me what context fulfill is.

 

[homwardbound]

Does the verse you quote imply the law is no more? Are you aware Paul wrote Rom 3:31, 7:12 and others too?
On what ground do you say separating the moral and ceremonial laws is sin and a travesty?

being aware of the Law as perfect and ne as not, shows me my need for the Savior, Christ and thus I uphold the Law as my reminder of my need for the Christ, my only way to Father and Life, ne life in Father that is.
Could this be true?

 

[homwardbound]

With this in mind, Christ must have lied to us...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

That is unless you believe the Law is still in force today. Oh wait, maybe you believe that the heavens and earth have passed away and none of this is real.

It is still in force today, for the unbeliever and those that are wanting to believe and claim they do, will be shown it is all Christ and no one else. The way, the truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by The Messiah, Christ. The Author and finisher of the believer's Faith. Law is in place to lead us to show us our need for the Savior 100% of all time.

 

[homwardbound]

To me 1 Cor 13:4-13 is the way to, or to use, the gifts of the Holy Spirit which the best is prophecy which is also the worst. I looked at Isaiah and Jeremiah. I looked around and saw what happens to those with a different "opinion" in the real world and in cyberspace. It takes more than love thy neighbour. If that's what you are saying then thanks, not now. Otherwise kindly clarify. Thanks

Is the true Love of God conditional or unconditional?
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:4-7[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres

So if one believes, this is God
Now even if one does not believe, this is still God.
So again is God' love unconditional to all, waiting hoping for none to be lost, yet it is by what one chooses, and that is to believe this amazing Love of God to all or not yes?
Hoping this is now clear