The Book of Daniel
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Herod and his successors could not wipe out all resistance to Hellenism among the Jews. There were, of course, varying degrees of resistance. Herod's supporters sought to bridge the gap between the two cultures and thus have the best of both worlds; the Sadducees combined a strict adherence to the Mosaic Law with at least a partial acceptance of Hellenism; the Pharisees were sterner opponents of foreign culture but more flexible in their attitude toward Judaism; the Essenes and other groups hoped for a messiah to deliver them from Roman domination and restore an independent Jewish nation. The Zealots had the most important influence on political events. They condemned anything foreign and insisted that force was the only weapon with which to combat it. At first only a minority, they grew powerful as Roman policy toward the Jews changed. The mad Caligula reversed the formerly tolerant Roman policy by attempting to install his own statue in the Temple, and only his timely murder saved the day. After Claudius' inauguration of the province in 44 AD, conditions worsened under a series of greedy and incompetent procurators, and in 66 AD revolt broke out (the First Jewish Revolt 66-77).
The governor of Syria could not quell the uprising, and the emperor Nero entrusted the campaign to the veteran commander Vespasian. With superior forces Vespasian slowly and effectively subdued Galilee and Judaea. When he was recalled to Rome to become emperor himself, he gave his army to his son Titus. In 70 Titus captured and completely destroyed Jerusalem with great slaughter. In 73 the last flames of revolt were put out at Masada, where the last rebels committed suicide rather than fall into Roman hands.
- Encyclopedia Britannica 1979, Vol 17:950-951
......
THE WARS OF THE JEWS
OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM
By Flavius Josephus
Translated by William Whiston
The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus < click
"History of the Jewish War was Josephus's first work, and published about A.D. 75"
Flavius Josephus wrote first work, the Jewish War, in Aramaic, and presented it to Vespasian between 75 and 79. An assistant translated it into the language of scholars of his days, Greek; this second edition was dedicated to Titus, who had become emperor in 79. The seventh book of the Jewish War, which describes the fate of the Jewish prisoners and the fall of Masada, is a later addition. Its title is slightly misleading. The books not only tell the story of the war between the Jews and Romans, but also deal with the preceding period from 175 BCE.
Flavius Josephus < click
Titus, who had become emperor in 79
...
Titus (Latin: Titus Flavius Caesar Vespasianus Augustus;[2] 30 December 39 – 13 September 81) was Roman Emperor from 79 to 81. A member of the Flavian dynasty, Titus succeeded his father Vespasian upon his death, thus becoming the first Roman Emperor to come to the throne after his own father.
Prior to becoming Emperor, Titus gained renown as a military commander, serving under his father in Judaea during the First Jewish-Roman War. The campaign came to a brief halt with the death of emperor Nero in 68, launching Vespasian's bid for the imperial power during the Year of the Four Emperors. When Vespasian was declared Emperor on 1 July 69, Titus was left in charge of ending the Jewish rebellion. In 70, he besieged and captured Jerusalem, and destroyed the city and the Second Temple. For this achievement Titus was awarded a triumph; the Arch of Titus commemorates his victory to this day.
Under the rule of his father, Titus gained notoriety in Rome serving as prefect of the Praetorian Guard, and for carrying on a controversial relationship with the Jewish queen Berenice.....
Titus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click
...
Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
...
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
Titus was "prince Titus" until he was made Emperor/Caesar/King in 79AD.
he was a PRINCE IN 70AD.
the people (romans) of the prince (Titus) that shall come (in 70AD) shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple).
fulfilled.
Flavius Josephus < click
Titus, who had become emperor in 79
...
Titus (Latin: Titus Flavius Caesar Vespasianus Augustus;[2] 30 December 39 – 13 September 81) was Roman Emperor from 79 to 81. A member of the Flavian dynasty, Titus succeeded his father Vespasian upon his death, thus becoming the first Roman Emperor to come to the throne after his own father.
Prior to becoming Emperor, Titus gained renown as a military commander, serving under his father in Judaea during the First Jewish-Roman War. The campaign came to a brief halt with the death of emperor Nero in 68, launching Vespasian's bid for the imperial power during the Year of the Four Emperors. When Vespasian was declared Emperor on 1 July 69, Titus was left in charge of ending the Jewish rebellion. In 70, he besieged and captured Jerusalem, and destroyed the city and the Second Temple. For this achievement Titus was awarded a triumph; the Arch of Titus commemorates his victory to this day.
Under the rule of his father, Titus gained notoriety in Rome serving as prefect of the Praetorian Guard, and for carrying on a controversial relationship with the Jewish queen Berenice.....
Titus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click
...
Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
...
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
Titus was "prince Titus" until he was made Emperor/Caesar/King in 79AD.
he was a PRINCE IN 70AD.
the people (romans) of the prince (Titus) that shall come (in 70AD) shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple).
fulfilled.
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G
GRA
Guest
God-inspired words do not lie.
If the book of Daniel so much as insinuates that [ something ] is future -- "you can bet your life, and feel comfortable doing it" - that it is, in fact, future...
If you do not believe that the book of Daniel is God-inspired -- then - "that is your business"; however, if you are going to have the faith to believe that God inspired it to be written - why would you question it in a way that "sounds like" you want to discredit it???
I understand that it is good to be certain about the actual history behind [ whatever ] -- but, you seem to be disregarding what is written in Daniel in favor of somehow disproving it as a prophetic book.
Maybe I'll get an answer from zone, since he was the one that wanted to use Daniel as conclusive proof of accurate prophecy.
Since no one else is even willing to investigate the validity of the historical-critical interpretation, or explain whether or not there is any evidence against it, I'll have to wait on zone.
Since no one else is even willing to investigate the validity of the historical-critical interpretation, or explain whether or not there is any evidence against it, I'll have to wait on zone.
M
megaman125
Guest
Your constant personal attacks are getting tiresome. Reported, for whatever little good that does here.
M
megaman125
Guest
You're the one implying there's no accurate prophecy in Daniel. You can settle this right now by simply stating that you believe the Bible prophecies in the book of Daniel. So then, can you tell me that?
I will not condone your personal vendetta against me by submitting to your inquisition. If you're interested in my personal beliefs, ask about them in a non-adversarial context. They are not relevant here.
M
megaman125
Guest
Ah, so asking you questions about what you believe is now a personal attack?
It's a rather brilliant defense and cover up plan. Create an account, call yourself a Christian, do nothing but fight against Christians at every step and cause division, side with the atheists about everything, and here you are fighting against Christians who believe the prophecies in Daniel. Then whenever you're rightfully questioned, and asked very simple, easy to answer questions about your beliefs, get as defensive as possible and play the victim card to insult anyone who dares raise these valid questions, while avoiding the real issue at hand. The brilliant part is how long the mods have been allowing you to get away with this.
The point is that what is accepted without evidence does not qualify as evidence.
zone was attempting to use the prophecies of Daniel as incontrovertable evidence for the divinity of Scripture. But in order to do that, we need to provide historical reasons to accept its claims as to when it was written and what events it was describing. It doesn't do to start with the assumption that it must be true prophecy and then try to fit it to future events; if you do that, then it can never be used as evidence of true prophecy. For it to be evidence, you have to provide sufficient basis, from the record itself, for choosing the prophetic explanation over any other.
Asking questions about belief is not necessarily a personal attack, but in this case it certainly is... as your following paragraph makes clear:
... in case anyone has any doubt that megaman125 has it out for me, personally, here it is. He's calling me a conspirator, a liar, and an atheist with a "brilliant plan." If this isn't punished as rude and harrassing behavior, then I have to conclude that there are no such rules enforced on this forum.
M
megaman125
Guest
So instead of answering the question "Do you believe the prophecies in the book of Daniel" instead you respond with "Boo hoo hoo, how dare you question me, waaa."
You claim you're a Christian, then everything else you do, say, and believe is contrary to that, so when you get questioned about your Christian beliefs, instead of answering the basic questions like any Christian is able to do, you instead cower and play the boo hoo hoo poor me card.
M
megaman125
Guest
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/74107-paul-false-apostle-according-you.html
Here's a recent topic where someone started questioning my beliefs, due to a simple misunderstand, which got resolved. When he questioned me I didn't play the "Boo hoo hoo, oh woah is me, how dare you question me. I say I'm a Christian therefore you can't question me and have to accept everything I say as being in line with being a Christian." No, I didn't do any of that. I maned up and answered his direct questions with direct answers.
Here's a recent topic where someone started questioning my beliefs, due to a simple misunderstand, which got resolved. When he questioned me I didn't play the "Boo hoo hoo, oh woah is me, how dare you question me. I say I'm a Christian therefore you can't question me and have to accept everything I say as being in line with being a Christian." No, I didn't do any of that. I maned up and answered his direct questions with direct answers.
And instead of asking questions relevant to the evidence for the book of Daniel, you interrogate my personal beliefs and accuse me of being an atheist.
What I believe is irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is about what there is evidence for. And I quite simply refuse to respond to personal attacks and inquisitions when they are not relevant.
So we have another five posts which you have managed to make about me, rather than about Daniel - plus that scurrilous accusation of yours which I hope the mods do something about, so that you can leave me alone and address the issues.
i was planning to get to that.
i was hoping folks would do their own little bit of research first.
that means they are interested.
but we can get to book datings.
it helps our case.
oops....okay...well...carrying on with whoever may still be interested.
you're no longer with us....but i will show that Antiochus Epiphanes is covered in Daniel 11 - 11:21-32
he was by no means the end of the story
i.e:
Antiochus Epiphanes
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Antiochus took the seleucid throne by subterfuge and flatteries - he flattered the populous as he had observed the romans do with their people. (the seleucid/ptolemy wars we just read about previously in 11:5-20)
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
he made a league with ptolemy vi son of cleopatra. he got part of egypt....which he captured with a small force.
they were inter-marrying. it's quite complicated but accurate - which is why it's best you do the research yourself to get the full picture. it's amazing.
fast forwarding through Antiochus:
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
in his 3rd attempt at egypt, he was into the 2300 day prophecy
[Dan 8
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. 15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.]
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
using his army as thugs - he forbids jewish sacrifice, and sets up his abomination - idol to god jupiter on the altar of burnt offering. not to mention sex inside the temple in orgies.
SO THAT'S THE END OF Antiochus Epiphanes directly.....
we read more of him and his influence in the factions within Israel:
The Maccabees - 11:32-35
who knew their God and did exploits; and many were purged and made white. they were martyred by the traitors.
lots of good reading and amazing history there.
but you haveta actually check the histories.
then:
Herod the Great - 11:36-39
then some on Augustus
then back to Herod.
the end.
until.....JESUS PREVAILS.
we (me too) skip over all that fine details in those critical years when Jesus was on earth.
HEROD WAS THE BAD GUY.
k....ttyl.
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Mystery by Design: Part I
Daniel 2 NASB - The King’s Forgotten Dream
The Secret Is Revealed to Daniel
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven; [SUP]20 [/SUP]Daniel said,
“Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever,
For wisdom and power belong to Him.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
He removes kings and [SUP][ab][/SUP]establishes kings;
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to [SUP][ac][/SUP]men of understanding.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“To You, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise,
For You have given me wisdom and power;
Even now You have made known to me what we requested of You,
For You have made known to us the king’s matter.”
Medo-Persia and Greece
[SUP]39 [/SUP]After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be [SUP][av][/SUP]left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
Daniel 7 NASB - Vision of the Four Beasts
The Son of Man Presented
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [SUP][k][/SUP]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [SUP][l][/SUP]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Then I desired to know the [SUP][r][/SUP]exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all [SUP][s][/SUP]the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and [SUP][t][/SUP]which was larger in appearance than its associates. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the [SUP][u][/SUP]saints and overpowering them [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was [SUP][v][/SUP]passed in favor of the [SUP][w][/SUP]saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the [SUP][x][/SUP]saints took possession of the kingdom.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
Daniel 8 NASB - Vision of the Ram and Goat
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“In the latter period of their [SUP][w][/SUP]rule,
When the transgressors have [SUP][x][/SUP]run their course,
A king will arise,
[SUP][y][/SUP]Insolent and skilled in [SUP][z][/SUP]intrigue.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“His power will be mighty, but not by his own power,
And he will [SUP][aa][/SUP]destroy to an extraordinary degree
And prosper and perform his will;
He will [SUP][ab][/SUP]destroy mighty men and [SUP][ac][/SUP]the holy people.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And through his shrewdness
He will cause deceit to succeed by his [SUP][ad][/SUP]influence;
And he will magnify himself in his heart,
And he will [SUP][ae][/SUP]destroy many while they are [SUP][af][/SUP]at ease.
He will even [SUP][ag][/SUP]oppose the Prince of princes,
But he will be broken without [SUP][ah][/SUP]human agency.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“The vision of the evenings and mornings
Which has been told is true;
But keep the vision secret,
For it pertains to many days in the future.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then I, Daniel, was [SUP][ai][/SUP]exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up again and carried on the king’s business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was none to [SUP][aj][/SUP]explain it.
Supplemental reading:
10 Kingdoms?
Daniel 2 NASB - The King’s Forgotten Dream
The Secret Is Revealed to Daniel
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven; [SUP]20 [/SUP]Daniel said,
“Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever,
For wisdom and power belong to Him.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
He removes kings and [SUP][ab][/SUP]establishes kings;
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to [SUP][ac][/SUP]men of understanding.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“To You, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise,
For You have given me wisdom and power;
Even now You have made known to me what we requested of You,
For You have made known to us the king’s matter.”
Medo-Persia and Greece
[SUP]39 [/SUP]After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be [SUP][av][/SUP]left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
Daniel 7 NASB - Vision of the Four Beasts
The Son of Man Presented
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [SUP][k][/SUP]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [SUP][l][/SUP]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Then I desired to know the [SUP][r][/SUP]exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all [SUP][s][/SUP]the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and [SUP][t][/SUP]which was larger in appearance than its associates. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the [SUP][u][/SUP]saints and overpowering them [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was [SUP][v][/SUP]passed in favor of the [SUP][w][/SUP]saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the [SUP][x][/SUP]saints took possession of the kingdom.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
Daniel 8 NASB - Vision of the Ram and Goat
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“In the latter period of their [SUP][w][/SUP]rule,
When the transgressors have [SUP][x][/SUP]run their course,
A king will arise,
[SUP][y][/SUP]Insolent and skilled in [SUP][z][/SUP]intrigue.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“His power will be mighty, but not by his own power,
And he will [SUP][aa][/SUP]destroy to an extraordinary degree
And prosper and perform his will;
He will [SUP][ab][/SUP]destroy mighty men and [SUP][ac][/SUP]the holy people.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And through his shrewdness
He will cause deceit to succeed by his [SUP][ad][/SUP]influence;
And he will magnify himself in his heart,
And he will [SUP][ae][/SUP]destroy many while they are [SUP][af][/SUP]at ease.
He will even [SUP][ag][/SUP]oppose the Prince of princes,
But he will be broken without [SUP][ah][/SUP]human agency.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“The vision of the evenings and mornings
Which has been told is true;
But keep the vision secret,
For it pertains to many days in the future.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then I, Daniel, was [SUP][ai][/SUP]exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up again and carried on the king’s business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was none to [SUP][aj][/SUP]explain it.
Supplemental reading:
10 Kingdoms?