Dispensational view of Scripture: Dividing People or Scripture?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How so?

Was the lion a literal lion, or a spiritual symbol representing the kingdom of Babylon, which was a literal kingdom.

And not sure what the rest of your statement proves. Would it be more visual to the earth and its inhabitants. and prove God is a God who can predict future events if Jesus is on an unseen throne, or if he is on a seen throne, and the literal inhabitants on the earth from every nation go to him and worship him?

The first proves nothing as far as the world is concerned. The second, No one has an excuse. Who can sit and deny a literal king on earth ruling with an iron rod?? as prophesied.

They are without excuse already.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20​

If people denied Christ when he was working miracles in their midst, people will deny him when he is sitting upon a throne on earth.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-9​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are without excuse already.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20
​

then tell me, why have prophesy at all? your right, they do have no excuse. But God still uses prophesy to prove who he is does he not?

If people denied Christ when he was working miracles in their midst, people will deny him when he is sitting upon a throne on earth.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-
​

yes they will.. Just like they denied him when he walked the earth and hung on a cross.

but that is not the point. the point is. when did satan get bound, and then loosed as it says here. is this a spiritual interpretation or a literal one. and who is it that denyd him and gets killed in this final battle. is this final battle even literal. as well as the binding.

this is what separates dispensationals from covenant beliefs.. one holds it as spiritual. one holds it as literal.

except for some in the dispensational crowd, this does not even relate to anything salvic in nature. it has to do with particular events which unfolds in human history.

as for the ones holding it salvic. we should all be fighting this lie. because peoples salvation is in hand in certain time frames..

 

[LT]

pretty basic...but there are others i've seen.
will try to find.

A Comparison of Historic Covenant and
Historic Dispensational Theology

Covenant vs. Dispensational > click

good chart. I think I found a more detailed one: DISPENSATIONALISM AND COVENANT THEOLOGY
It has some scripture, but I want to see more.
Also, several people brought out that there are many views within what we call Dispensationalism(DPSL). It seems more like a viewpoint than a theology, and if taken too far it can become heretical, just like Calvinism can.

One major point i have against DPSL is the "Analogy of Faith". definition is here: What does the term “analogy of faith mean?
I believe this is foundation to understanding scripture. Starting a doctrine in prophecy, and drawing out the implications to apply to other scripture, just seems dangerous. Start from the clear passages, and apply those to the prophecy.

There are several places in these two charts that I take the DPSL side instead of Covenant, but I have more research to do before I post a full edition with scriptures to affirm or deny each position.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

good chart. I think I found a more detailed one: DISPENSATIONALISM AND COVENANT THEOLOGY
It has some scripture, but I want to see more.
Also, several people brought out that there are many views within what we call Dispensationalism(DPSL). It seems more like a viewpoint than a theology, and if taken too far it can become heretical, just like Calvinism can.

One major point i have against DPSL is the "Analogy of Faith". definition is here: What does the term “analogy of faith mean?
I believe this is foundation to understanding scripture. Starting a doctrine in prophecy, and drawing out the implications to apply to other scripture, just seems dangerous. Start from the clear passages, and apply those to the prophecy.

There are several places in these two charts that I take the DPSL side instead of Covenant, but I have more research to do before I post a full edition with scriptures to affirm or deny each position.

There are areas of both charts I would disagree with. Maybe it would be a good idea to come up with our own views (IE have the amills in this chatroom, and the dispy's in this chatroom) claim what they believe, then maybe we can come up with the differences.. Since I would say niether chart is a complete or accurate representation of either camp.

As for anology of faith. Being a disy. I would agree with the terminology as I see it. Scripture can not contradict. We must interpret scripture with scripture. failure to do so could lead to eronious interpretations.

 

[zone]

good chart. I think I found a more detailed one: DISPENSATIONALISM AND COVENANT THEOLOGY
It has some scripture, but I want to see more.
Also, several people brought out that there are many views within what we call Dispensationalism(DPSL). It seems more like a viewpoint than a theology, and if taken too far it can become heretical, just like Calvinism can.

One major point i have against DPSL is the "Analogy of Faith". definition is here: What does the term “analogy of faith mean?
I believe this is foundation to understanding scripture. Starting a doctrine in prophecy, and drawing out the implications to apply to other scripture, just seems dangerous. Start from the clear passages, and apply those to the prophecy.

There are several places in these two charts that I take the DPSL side instead of Covenant, but I have more research to do before I post a full edition with scriptures to affirm or deny each position.

well already i see a problem, but clearly it's due to whoever is making the chart.

COVENANT THEOLOGY

1.Always Calvinist. Usually 5-point.

no, i'm Lutheran. so that's wrong.

i have a very large file on my comp somewhere that is really detailed re: all the variations of dispensationalism.
i'll try to find it again.
it's also posted here at CC on another thread somewhere.

 

[zone]

i wonder how many DSPLs agree with this from the chart:


Dispensational: 10. God's main purpose in history is literal Israel.

[vs
Covenant: 10. God’s main purpose in history is Christ and secondarily the Church.]

 

[jahsoul]

well already i see a problem, but clearly it's due to whoever is making the chart.

COVENANT THEOLOGY

1.Always Calvinist. Usually 5-point.

no, i'm Lutheran. so that's wrong.

I saw that and raised my eyebrow. I'm not a Calvinist, Lutheran, etc., etc. but the concept of dispensation and it scriptural usage never added up to me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i wonder how many DSPLs agree with this from the chart:


Dispensational: 10. God's main purpose in history is literal Israel.

[vs
Covenant: 10. God’s main purpose in history is Christ and secondarily the Church.]

I would agree with the second. And disagree with the first. Yet I am not covenential

This is the problem with trying to use charts and what other people believe to try to understand what others believe. We will most likely be wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well already i see a problem, but clearly it's due to whoever is making the chart.

COVENANT THEOLOGY

1.Always Calvinist. Usually 5-point.

no, i'm Lutheran. so that's wrong.

i have a very large file on my comp somewhere that is really detailed re: all the variations of dispensationalism.
i'll try to find it again.
it's also posted here at CC on another thread somewhere.

Would recommend all be carefull. I love my sis here. But she still thinks I believe things I do not. So even her charts would not be complete.

I still suggest we come up with a list of questioins, then all answer. I think we ALL would be suprised to see what the others believe, I doubt there are purely covenentials or dispensationalists here.

 

[Hoffco]

Thank you all for 2hrs of ,what should I call it??? review of church history, it reminded me of all the"political" "brown-nosing" maneuverings that have "crucified" my ministerial career. BUT, more on a positive side. MY GOD is in control! All of the rejection I have faced is making me the man God wants me to be. I understand, God can only use what I can give into His service, and, I am encouraged that Jesus used a donkey. And I really delight in the Privilege of interacting with all of you. NOW< I need some more sleep. Merry Christmas to you all, and to all a good night,day. LOL Love to all, Hoffco

 

[notuptome]

I fail to see the problem with dispensations and covenants. Dispensations are helpful in understanding what God is doing and why He is doing it. Covenants are specific promises made by God to a specific people. I guess it's just a consequence of Eternal God acting within the confines of time.

I'm relatively certain that beating each other over the head on this issue is not entirely profitable in the proliferation of the Gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[konroh]

Isaiah 66 paints a beautiful picture of God in control. Notice there are economic, military, political, national, spiritual, and judgmental elements to all this.

12For thus says the LORD, "Behold, I extend peace to her like a river, And the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream; And you will be nursed, you will be carried on the hip and fondled on the knees.


13"As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; And you will be comforted in Jerusalem."
14Then you will see [this], and your heart will be glad, And your bones will flourish like the new grass; And the hand of the LORD will be made known to His servants, But He will be indignant toward His enemies.
15For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.
17"Those who sanctify and purify themselves [to go] to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, Will come to an end altogether," declares the LORD.
18"For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. 19"I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Rosh, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. 20"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests [and] for Levites," says the LORD.
22"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure.
23"And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
24"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

I do see great fulfillment from many OT passages in Christ, and Christ absolutely is the Spiritual King whose Kingdom all believers have been transferred into, but He's also the political, national, economic ruler of the world, as these verses show.

 

[LT]

This seems to be an image of the New Jerusalem, not a prophecy for the current Jerusalem. This will be fulfilled with the New Heavens and New Earth.
I have always interpreted these type of images to be for the afterlife, not this life.

Many people have a hard time understanding that what we call "heaven" is definitely going to be a physical thing, not just a spiritual thing. The Resurrection will be a physical event, not just spiritual resurrection.
Under this light, many of the prophecies for Jerusalem/Israel will be fulfilled in the New Jerusalem.

The question is: Is Satan still the prince of this world? Or is Christ already reigning earth, from heaven?

If this is the "millennium" period, then Satan is bound, and we don't have his actions as an excuse for any evil in the world. If this is not the "millennium" then Christ is not reigning yet.
or is there a 3rd option?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This seems to be an image of the New Jerusalem, not a prophecy for the current Jerusalem. This will be fulfilled with the New Heavens and New Earth.
I have always interpreted these type of images to be for the afterlife, not this life.

Many people have a hard time understanding that what we call "heaven" is definitely going to be a physical thing, not just a spiritual thing. The Resurrection will be a physical event, not just spiritual resurrection.
Under this light, many of the prophecies for Jerusalem/Israel will be fulfilled in the New Jerusalem.

The question is: Is Satan still the prince of this world? Or is Christ already reigning earth, from heaven?

If this is the "millennium" period, then Satan is bound, and we don't have his actions as an excuse for any evil in the world. If this is not the "millennium" then Christ is not reigning yet.
or is there a 3rd option?

There will be a new jerusalem. A heavenly city, In the new heaven and earth. I do not think anyone would deny this.,

As for the rest. Is satan bound now? He is the father of this world. He is the father of lies. He creeps around like a lion seeking who he may devour.. Does not sound like he is bound to me..

More,, He is still decieving the nations.. Look at all the evil nations still doing his will today. Nothing has changed. this world looks no different than the OT world. The only difference is the technology we have..

We are told when Christ reigns, Every nation will worship him. They will even go to him to worhsip, from wherever they live. Are they doing this today?

Good questions you asked!!

 

[konroh]

I understand why you see it as for the New Jerusalem, but don't you see you are making an interpretive decision that passages like this must warrant a picture of the afterlife, especially the part about the dead bodies? Isaiah 66 does include new heaven and new earth metaphors, but how about Is. 61? Jesus quoted this in His 1st public appearance in Luke and stopped mid-sentence after saying He fulfilled "the favorable day of the Lord," He didn't continue and say "the day of vengeance of our God" and the rest of the chapter. He seemed to leave that for His Second Advent.

If this is the "millennium" period, then Satan is bound, and we don't have his actions as an excuse for any evil in the world. If this is not the "millennium" then Christ is not reigning yet. or is there a 3rd option?

Many of these passages point to a Millenium period that is still future. We certainly have been "transferred into the Kingdom of Jesus" as per Col. 1 but when the disciples asked Jesus in Acts 1 if He was now going to set up His earthly kingdom, why did Jesus respond by saying, "It's not for you to know"? Why didn't He say, "My kingdom is not of this world, you are in my kingdom, my spiritual kingdom"? Just a thought.

 

[konroh]

"with an earthly, physical, economic, military and spiritual reign here on earth. A culmination of history"

where are we told this is God's Greater Plan?
could you please use scripture to address the questions?
eventually our opinions mean little if we don't see it confirmed in God's Word.

After all the amazing chapters in Rev. that picture a Babylon that has economic power (Rev. 17:4 4The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,) and the beast and false prophet representing political and religious power (Rev. 19:19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image;) we have the amazing picture of Christ who reigns with saints for 1000 years in Rev. 20. Where is this reign? Having just defeated the woman Babylon and the beast Antichrist and the false prophet and having thrown the dragon Satan into the pit the White Rider Jesus reigns on the earth for 1000 years.

I know Rev 20 is a very disputed passage, but I am putting it in its context with the previous chapters. Here is the Scripture that expresses the earthly reign of Jesus.