What Laws are still valid to christians

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Hoffco

Guest
Please keep in mind , GOD is the absolute ,His laws for us in/for time are not absolute, they are mean for time only and/or for a specific length of time , then they are replaced with better laws. God starts in the 1st period of history (Desp.) with a family, unwritten laws, then God moves to a more populated time ,then to a nation ,Israel, That makes the need for formal written laws to govern them ,Moses, then "the fullness of time", Jesus comes, changes of priesthood ,back to like before the Nation of Israel, Mel. priesthood, endless , then the secret soc. comes to the front burner, the forever Church of God, started in the Garden, now the "mysteries" are revealed , we are a spiritual kingdom again , and are under different governments for our protection, from other nations, soon Jesus will take us out of the earth for 3+ yrs. and then we come back , Jesus starts His own physical earthly kingdom. then it is all burned up, and we enter into eternity , no laws, we are all perfect , no laws are needed , forever happy in /on the new earth with Jesus . Jesus gives His rule back to GOD Almighty, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the Man Jesus enjoys the perfect earth with His "children", now His BRETHREN, coequal forever. Love to all, Hoffco
 
Jan 27, 2013
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I identify these people as false prophets and teachers.

i identify this room as a spiritual church. where people are coming to learn about God and share

Thus I see what they are doing no different than what Paul spoke against, What Christ fought, and what John the baptist tried to prevent (the pharisees where not even against john when he called them a brood of vipers.
if you see this room as ,where people are coming to learn about God and share
how do you see what a false prophets and teachers is.
just a thought, given there is more that one walk , churches and sects in cc. etc
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
if you see this room as ,where people are coming to learn about God and share
how do you see what a false prophets and teachers is.
just a thought, given there is more that one walk , churches and sects in cc. etc
There is only one gospel. Any other gospel leads people to hell. is this not right?

I have disagreements with alot of people on some doctrines. But that is fine, But when it comes to the gospel. we are to stand firm, Expose the false prophets. At the least confront them..
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Read it again.

I am not confused about Jesus' words.

I am confused by your application of them.
Do you really care? If I present the Word of God concerning believers and non-believers, why would you ever think that my application is different from God's? You're not confused about scripture, but you're confused that I presented scripture that I obviously agree with. Now I'm confused about what your mind is thinking. It's like I said that He said and you wonder why I said what He said. So I said what He said and present what He said to you because it's the same thing that I would say knowing He said what is true. That's pretty confusing. Maybe you're trying to discuss something further. If so carry on.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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So was Paul wrong to confront Peter on his hypocrisy?
No. Are others correct in confronting those who believe because they think/assume they are distorting God's divine will, or are they being confrontational for the same reason Paul confronted Peter? Remember Peter was enlightened in a dream or vision. I do hope that those who don't have it right that God will do the same for them. If we know the truth about what another person believes, there is no reason to ask leading questions to find out. If we condemn by asking questions, that condemnation is premature because we don't know the whole truth about another person's beliefs. That goes for both you and me.
 
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Linda70

Guest
The Law was given to reveal sin and to show man that he is a guilty sinner before God and to bring men to Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1 Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

People in O.T. times did not understand completely about how Jesus Christ would come to earth and die for their sins, but when they believed in the things God told them, they were saved by their faith in God's Word.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

From my post (#981) in this thread:

The moral absolutes have not changed, but the way of God's administering those absolutes has changed. For example, idolatry and adultery have been just as wrong in God's sight since the time of the cross as they were when the Mosaic Law was in effect, but since the cross, God has not required the death penalty for those sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) as He did when the Mosaic Law was in effect (Exodus 22:20; Leviticus 20:10). The new, superior way of God's administering His moral absolutes is called grace.

Freedom from the moral aspect of the Mosaic Law does not involve freedom from the eternal, unchangeable moral absolutes of God. It only involves freedom from one way of God's administering His absolutes--namely through the Mosaic Law. If one is under God's grace, in administering His eternal, unchangeable, moral absolutes, one will not be lawless.

Although the Mosaic Law had three aspects (civil, ceremonial, and moral), it functioned as an indivisible unit. Thus, to place oneself under one aspect of the Mosaic Law is to obligate oneself to be under the entire Law. James declared "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10). James was asserting that the breaking of only one part of the Mosaic Law made a person guilty of breaking the entire Law. The only way this could be true was if the Mosaic Law were an indivisible unit.
Therefore, nobody is saved by keeping the law...in any dispensation. Otherwise, why did Christ have to come and die for sinners? The rule in life for the believer is not the law of Moses but the life of Christ as revealed to us in the New Testament.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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I identify these people as false prophets and teachers.

i identify this room as a spiritual church. where people are coming to learn about God and share

Thus I see what they are doing no different than what Paul spoke against, What Christ fought, and what John the baptist tried to prevent (the pharisees where not even against john when he called them a brood of vipers.
Report them. There have been 2 or 3 people, that I know of, that have been banned via a report to the moderators.

According to the Words of Jesus the first 2 steps have been accomplish for sure. Cast them out as publicans and heathens. It's the 3rd and final step and it's Biblical.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
Just-Me,

I know from my previous talks with you that you believe that salvation is through/by/in Christ ALONE.

I also know that you believe that God's eternal Law (Love) is not to be trampled on.

I also understand that you know the difference between God's Law and the Law of Sin. And that you do not preach obedience to the Law of Sin for righteousness.

But, all the more, you know obedience to God's Law is a sign of a true faith and no amount of physical obedience will ever make one justified (saved from death).

I see this because I listen with an opened heart.

I say this because I wish for others to see with an opened heart that you do not preach the Law which condemns, but the Law which gives Life more abundantly.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Just-Me,

I know from my previous talks with you that you believe that salvation is through/by/in Christ ALONE.

I also know that you believe that God's eternal Law (Love) is not to be trampled on.

I also understand that you know the difference between God's Law and the Law of Sin. And that you do not preach obedience to the Law of Sin for righteousness.

But, all the more, you know obedience to God's Law is a sign of a true faith and no amount of physical obedience will ever make one justified (saved from death).

I see this because I listen with an opened heart.

I say this because I wish for others to see with an opened heart that you do not preach the Law which condemns, but the Law which gives Life more abundantly.
Thank you very much. Your open heart is the key, and my heart also must follow suit with your heart. Knowing that you have the heart you do, I am sure you are saddened as I am with the contention caused by assumptions. Just say that the law is valid for more than condemnation, or that the entire Word of God is relevant equally, or anything pertaining to the equal validity of the Old Testament, and you are labeled. That is so sad. I'm not being defensive of myself, but I am contending for the faith. I just can't see any part of the Word of God negated or changed according to God's plan when God says He don’t change, and neither does Jesus change. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds out of God's mouth. Jesus said, "I and My Father are One." One meaning unit of One. I can't separate God from Jesus any more than I can separate the law from grace, but I can use the gift of grace and faith to separate myself from the flesh, and a carnal mind. I want to have God destroy everything that would keep me away from His presence. I can’t do that by works, meaning I can’t do what is impossible for a human. I want to be obedient, not by my concepts, but by His capability that He has placed inside of me. That's my testimony.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Man is bent on applying rules and following rules and banishing or imprisoning those who do not follow their rules. For instance a student brings a gun to school and kills some people, so our reaction is to ban guns. After all that makes sense right or does it. Is the problem the gun or the people. People have been killing people long before a gun was invented. The problem is sin and a denial of God. Go back 30 years, you never heard of a school massacre, but know its all most monthly. What changed? did the law change? People 30 years ago had guns. Making laws has no effect against sin, because criminals do not obey laws. It only clamps down on the freedom of law abiding citizens.

This is what changed. Churches started preaching law and psychology and have rejected the cross. Therefore sin is rampant and uncontrollable. Now its no longer safe to take an evening walk without fear. Where the Spirit of God is there is liberty The Spirit can only work within the parameters of the cross which most modern churches have rejected.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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just-me said:
Elin said:
just-me said:
Elin said:
Okay, so you don't mean a spiritual meaning that can be hidden from believers.

But you seem to use it sometimes in reference to believers.


That is what was confusing me
.
Luke 6:44-45 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Matthew 7:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Your point?
God's point, Jesus' Words. You were confused and confusion is not from God. So I give you the words of Jesus so you would listen to Him, not me. Differentiating between believers and non believers.
Read it again.

I am not confused about Jesus' words.

I am confused by your application of them.
Do you really care? If I present the Word of God concerning believers and non-believers, why would you ever think that my application is different from God's? You're not confused about scripture, but you're confused that I presented scripture that I obviously agree with. Now I'm confused about what your mind is thinking. It's like I said that He said and you wonder why I said what He said. So I said what He said and present what He said to you because it's the same thing that I would say knowing He said what is true. That's pretty confusing. Maybe you're trying to discuss something further. If so carry on.
Okay, I'm sure you'll understand if I pass up the opportunity to argue about the conduction of the argument.

The record is clear, and speaks for itself.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
A master of a house or even a business without rules has not servants but abusers of that liberty.

A disobedient servant freed from the thread of death loves the master who showed grace.

A merciful master showing grace is not a master who has forsaken his essence, but a master who has been in a servant's shoes.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Man is bent on applying rules and following rules and banishing or imprisoning those who do not follow their rules. For instance a student brings a gun to school and kills some people, so our reaction is to ban guns. After all that makes sense right or does it. Is the problem the gun or the people. People have been killing people long before a gun was invented. The problem is sin and a denial of God. Go back 30 years, you never heard of a school massacre, but know its all most monthly. What changed? did the law change? People 30 years ago had guns. Making laws has no effect against sin, because criminals do not obey laws. It only clamps down on the freedom of law abiding citizens.

This is what changed. Churches started preaching law and psychology and have rejected the cross. Therefore sin is rampant and uncontrollable. Now its no longer safe to take an evening walk without fear. Where the Spirit of God is there is liberty The Spirit can only work within the parameters of the cross which most modern churches have rejected.
Enforcing the law of the land would help. I would say if capital punishment was till legal, as it used to be, form coast to coast, there would be a notable decline in murder. If the Ten Commandments were still on the walls of our schools, as it used to be, there would be a decline in bullying, leading to killing in some cases. I would say if people would be responsible
for their promiscuity, there would be a whole lot less one parent families, and street crimes in our larger cities. I would say that Detroit would not be in the shape that it is today if there had been integrity enough for politicians to turn away from legalized extortion, and so on and so on.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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No. Are others correct in confronting those who believe because they think/assume they are distorting God's divine will, or are they being confrontational for the same reason Paul confronted Peter? Remember Peter was enlightened in a dream or vision. I do hope that those who don't have it right that God will do the same for them. If we know the truth about what another person believes, there is no reason to ask leading questions to find out.
Do you understand the nature of refutation?

One way to do so is to ask a question whose answer by the other party will reveal their error which they are overlooking.

It's not about condemnation.

It's about bringing to light the contradictions in their understanding.

Not answering those questions gives the appearance of wanting to avoid having to deal with the contradictions inherent in one's (mis)understanding.

And not answering the questions in order to avoid dealing with the contradiction reveals one is not discussing in good faith.
 
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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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The Law was given to reveal sin and to show man that he is a guilty sinner before God and to bring men to Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1 Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

People in O.T. times did not understand completely about how Jesus Christ would come to earth and die for their sins, but when they believed in the things God told them, they were saved by their faith in God's Word.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

From my post (#981) in this thread:

- - - - - -

Therefore, nobody is saved by keeping the law...in any dispensation.
Correct.

But Paul speaks from the point of view of the Jew who believed that he could be justified by law keeping.

And from that point of view, nobody is saved by keeping the law because no one could keep it perfectly, keep "every word" and, therefore, was cursed by it (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10), rather than made righteous and saved by it.

Otherwise, why did Christ have to come and die for sinners? The rule in life for the believer is not the law of Moses but the life of Christ as revealed to us in the New Testament.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
There was no life of Christ in the OT, nor was the law given to save them in the OT.

That was a Jewish misunderstanding of the purpose of the law.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Just-Me,

I know from my previous talks with you that you believe that salvation is through/by/in Christ ALONE.

I also know that you believe that God's eternal Law (Love) is not to be trampled on.

I also understand that you know the difference between God's Law and the Law of Sin. And that
you do not preach obedience to the Law of Sin for righteousness.
You do understand that the Law of Sin is the principle of sin in fallen nature, right?

But, all the more, you know obedience to God's Law is a sign of a true faith and no amount of physical obedience will ever make one justified (saved from death).

I see this because I listen with an opened heart.

I say this because I wish for others to see with an opened heart that you do not preach the Law which condemns, but the Law which gives Life more abundantly.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
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Do you understand the nature of refutation?

One way to do so is to ask a question whose answer by the other party will reveal their error which they are overlooking.

It's not about condemnation.

It's about bringing to light the contradictions in their understanding.

Not answering those questions gives the appearance of wanting to avoid having to deal with the contradictions inherent in one's (mis)understanding.

And not answering the questions in order to avoid dealing with the contradiction reveals one is not discussing in good faith.
Then arguing before you ask the question is incorrect, for you really don't know what that person believes. As far as questions are concerned, I have no problem with a person who is asking a legitimate question to sincerely understand another persons heart. But answering questions that are not relative to that sincerity, and are leading questions that sound like a person hasn't kicked in the brain yet, are questions that the Bible says lead to contention. I have to admit that my frustrations have lead me to respond in kind, so I confess I was wrong. And you know that along with everybody else that frequent this thread.

It's a nice place to argue, henceforth it's popular for some. If it stays on the first page all the better because people contribute more often. I have seen, for the most part, people following others to other threads and the same argument is eventually arrived at as this one. So on and on it goes, and where it stops no one knows.:D

2 Timothy 2:22-26 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
A master of a house or even a business without rules has not servants but abusers of that liberty.

A disobedient servant freed from the thread of death loves the master who showed grace.

A merciful master showing grace is not a master who has forsaken his essence, but a master who has been in a servant's shoes.
A servant, who trusts his master, and knows his masters business. Does not think of the rules. Nor is he guided by the rules. He goes about his masters business. And in doing so, He does not have to worry about breaking the rules.

But of course. On the times he may mess up and forget his masters business for a minute and chose to serve self because of temptation. The rule immediately pops up and he realises he has broken his masters trust. And can get back to his masters business.