What Laws are still valid to christians

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Mar 3, 2013
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That's what's called sitting on the fence.

View attachment 59681
Apparently we are wrong, in your opinion, when we do as scripture says in 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living;”

Hmm, when I compare that with your opinion, I make my choice of who/what to believe as truth. You can give no scripture to back up your “sitting on the fence” opinion, so to me it is worthless.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Then to demonstrate the integrity of your heart and settle this once and for all, please tell us who you say should be obeyed in regards to physical circumcision: Moses or Paul?

Do not equivocate or obfuscate; just say Moses or Paul. It is impossible to obey both.
So you religion is to choose between two people who were both chosen by God?

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

2 Timothy 3:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Why is that you and others cannot answer a simple question simply? Paul made it very clear that if one becomes physically circumcised as a means of obedience to law, he has cut himself off from Christ.
So, did your parents circumcise you as an infant? They did me, but I don't brag about it. Or say I am more righteous than you you are if you aren't circumcised. Don't wrongly divide the Word, rightly divide the Word. God's Word is not separated from itself. His Word separates us from what keeps us away from Him. No one should brag about their circumcision any more than one should brag about their non circumcision. If you cannot understand the relationship of what it's about, I will verbalize my thoughts. It has everything to do with reproduction. In the Spiritual sense, we are to bring people into the new birth as Jesus said to Nicodemus. Without circumcising the foreskin of our hearts, our witness is vain.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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First you asked a different question over and over and I answered more than 3 times, then you change the question and act like i never answer. All the while you refuse to answer my question over and over without even sweating it. To me this shows you probably reject those verses I question you about and you intent is not to build and grow the body of Messiah but to pick at thise who seek obedience to Yahweh.

Dont even try to come at me with you avoiding the question nonsense, You outright refuse to even reply them continually accuse me, if i answer with a single word my anser can easily be twisted, something I dont like to leave as a possibility, especially when you have lied on me in this thread. So..

I follow Yahweh and Yahshua, I do not make Mosheh or Shaul my head, any who do this are cursed. Concering what I imagine to be your main point, Yahshua says to keep the Law of Yahweh many times, so that is what I do.

About your circumcision crazyness, i was circumcised as a child and had no say, so this is not even on my radar, none the less I let the Scriptures speak and stand on them:

1 Corinthians 7:17-19, "But as Yahweh has allotted to everyone being called, so let him walk in Yahshua Messiah. And so I ordain among all the called out ones. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? Let him not be drawn into uncircumcision. Was anyone uncircumcised when he was called? Let him not be circumcised. Is it not true that uncircumcision accounts for nothing, but the keeping of the Laws of Yahweh accounts for everything? "

YLT
1 Corinthians 7:17-19, "if not, as God did distribute to each, as the Lord hath called each — so let him walk; and thus in all the assemblies do I direct: being circumcised — was any one called? let him not become uncircumcised; in uncircumcision was any one called? let him not be circumcised; the circumcision is nothing, and the uncircumcision is nothing — but a keeping of the commands of God."

I do not reject any Scripture what i reject are Scriptual lies that are not true to what i beliebve to be the meaning of said Scripture.
And once again you have demonstrated that you are unable (or unwilling) to answer the simple question. Moses or Paul? It is impossible to obey both regarding physical circumcision. IMO you are afraid of openly admitting that you don't believe Paul's authority.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Why is that you and others cannot answer a simple question simply? Paul made it very clear that if one becomes physically circumcised as a means of obedience to law, he has cut himself off from Christ.
I'll look for the scripture you are refering to.

Romans 11:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Galatians 5:2-7 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Now, again, if a person that is claiming justification because of his circumcision, he is not following the law that says to circumcise the foreskin of the heart. Both are not wrong, it's how we view them. There is no justification by the law. If ya can't get that, ask for it in prayer. Sincerely.
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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So, did your parents circumcise you as an infant? They did me, but I don't brag about it. Or say I am more righteous than you you are if you aren't circumcised. Don't wrongly divide the Word, rightly divide the Word. God's Word is not separated from itself. His Word separates us from what keeps us away from Him. No one should brag about their circumcision any more than one should brag about their non circumcision. If you cannot understand the relationship of what it's about, I will verbalize my thoughts. It has everything to do with reproduction. In the Spiritual sense, we are to bring people into the new birth as Jesus said to Nicodemus. Without circumcising the foreskin of our hearts, our witness is vain.
This is just a distraction. I said becoming physically circumcised as a means of obedience to law (of GOD). Most people have their infants circumcised for hygienic reasons, not religious ones. Huge difference.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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And once again you have demonstrated that you are unable (or unwilling) to answer the simple question. Moses or Paul? It is impossible to obey both regarding physical circumcision. IMO you are afraid of openly admitting that you don't believe Paul's authority.
You clearly dont have a problem openly admitting you reject the Command of Yahshua.......

So by quoting this verse and saying I stand on it I reject Shaul? This is exactly what im talking about I answer your question, you say I dont. Just because you speak you views devoid of Scripture doesent mean I have to, if you look at my posts many times I dont write a singe word just Scripture.

1 Corinthians 7:17-19, "But as Yahweh has allotted to everyone being called, so let him walk in Yahshua Messiah. And so I ordain among all the called out ones. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? Let him not be drawn into uncircumcision. Was anyone uncircumcised when he was called? Let him not be circumcised. Is it not true that uncircumcision accounts for nothing, but the keeping of the Laws of Yahweh accounts for everything?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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This is just a distraction. I said becoming physically circumcised as a means of obedience to law (of GOD). Most people have their infants circumcised for hygienic reasons, not religious ones. Huge difference.
It's not a distraction. I has very much to do with the will of God, to bring others to Christ.

I repeat......."Without circumcising the foreskin of our hearts, our witness is vain."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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I stand on this Scripture also:

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."
 
Sep 4, 2012
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I'll look for the scripture you are refering to.
Here it is for all to see clearly:

Paul makes it very clear that if a man becomes circumcised (as a means of obedience to the law of Moses), he is cut off from Christ and the new covenant of grace.

Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing! And again I testify to every man who becomes circumcised, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law. You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:2-4​


The law of Moses says that every male must be circumcised, and that those not circumcised would be cut off from the old covenant (of law).

In the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Leviticus 12:3

The uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14​


Who do you obey: Moses or Paul?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Here it is for all to see clearly:

Paul makes it very clear that if a man becomes circumcised (as a means of obedience to the law of Moses), he is cut off from Christ and the new covenant of grace.

Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing! And again I testify to every man who becomes circumcised, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law. You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:2-4​



The law of Moses says that every male must be circumcised, and that those not circumcised would be cut off from the old covenant (of law).

In the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Leviticus 12:3

The uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14​



Who do you obey: Moses or Paul?
The question should be.

If a 25 y/o male came into their church. And his parents did not circumcize them. And he was circumcized by the hands of God in his heart. would they try to force him to be physically circumcised. And would they consider him to be in sin if he did not. and make it a yes or no answer.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Who do you obey: Moses or Paul?
Why don't you acknowledge this? Is it because you can't see past the physical corruption?

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Acts 7:51-53 (KJV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
[SUP]52 [/SUP]Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
[SUP]53 [/SUP]Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

I get the feeling that you might think that if the heart is circumcised, and it would be a bloody mess, a major heart attach, or maybe even a heart transplant, all in the physical aspects.

I'll give you the thoughts I have for you that Jesus said.

John 3:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Why don't you acknowledge this? Is it because you can't see past the physical corruption?

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Acts 7:51-53 (KJV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
[SUP]52 [/SUP]Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
[SUP]53 [/SUP]Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

I get the feeling that you might think that if the heart is circumcised, and it would be a bloody mess, a major heart attach, or maybe even a heart transplant, all in the physical aspects.

I'll give you the thoughts I have for you that Jesus said.

John 3:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
He is not asking about spiritual circumcision. Why do you guys keep avoiding the question. And keep thinking because you gave a spiritual answer you have answered him?

And people wonder why others get so upset!
 
Mar 4, 2013
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The question should be.

If a 25 y/o male came into their church. And his parents did not circumcize them. And he was circumcized by the hands of God in his heart. would they try to force him to be physically circumcised. And would they consider him to be in sin if he did not. and make it a yes or no answer.
Good question. I would reject that church
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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I posted:

New International Version Mt 23:2-3
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

King James Bible Mt 23:2-3

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

However Yahweh has left us truth!


Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."


You said only the greek was reliable, I asked why dont you follow what Jesus says in the Greek and you replied:

So yes, that is a command I don't care about following because it doesn't pertain to me.
just more words of the Messiah thrown in the trash.

here are more of Yahshua's words, do you follow any of them? why dont you go through these verse and tell me yes or no and why. I have answered your questions over and over with none of the same respect or even care from you...

Mattithyah 5:19 "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 24:35, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

Revelation 14:12, "lIn this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua"

Revelation 22:12-14, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Mattithyah 7:21, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:

#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:—iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) #458.
α᾿νομι´α anomia; from 459; lawlessness:— lawless deed, lawless deeds, lawlessness


FROM:

#0459 ἄνομος anomos {an'-om-os} from G0001 (as a negative particle) and G3551; TDNT - 4:1086,646; adj

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
1a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0001 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:— without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) #459.
α῎νομος anomos; from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and 3551; lawless, without law:— godless men, lawless, lawless one, transgressors, without the law, without law, without law.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I posted:

New International Version Mt 23:2-3
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

King James Bible Mt 23:2-3

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

However Yahweh has left us truth!


Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."


You said only the greek was reliable, I asked why dont you follow what Jesus says in the Greek and you replied:



just more words of the Messiah thrown in the trash.

here are more of Yahshua's words, do you follow any of them? why dont you go through these verse and tell me yes or no and why. I have answered your questions over and over with none of the same respect or even care from you...

Mattithyah 5:19 "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 24:35, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

Revelation 14:12, "lIn this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua"

Revelation 22:12-14, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Mattithyah 7:21, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:

#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:—iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) #458.
α᾿νομι´α anomia; from 459; lawlessness:— lawless deed, lawless deeds, lawlessness


FROM:

#0459 ἄνομος anomos {an'-om-os} from G0001 (as a negative particle) and G3551; TDNT - 4:1086,646; adj

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
1a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0001 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:— without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) #459.
α῎νομος anomos; from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and 3551; lawless, without law:— godless men, lawless, lawless one, transgressors, without the law, without law, without law.
so from this, can i assume you would try to force the 25 y/o to get circumcised. or say he was in sin if he did not?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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He is not asking about spiritual circumcision. Why do you guys keep avoiding the question. And keep thinking because you gave a spiritual answer you have answered him?

And people wonder why others get so upset!
He's concentrating on the physical only. If the law is Spiritual, as Paul said, then we should kick the mind into gear and search for the Spiritual meaning. I don't see why there needs to be a choice between Paul and Moses. They are both right. They were both called to do God's will in the time sequence God had determined. Why fight about what part of the Word of God is negated when none of it is? If God wanted it to be invalid, He wouldn't have preserved it. Shame on God for giving us something to fight over, and the non-believers laugh at us and say to themselves "I don't want any part of that." Shame on us!!!!!!!
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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Now when I look around I see that the majority of Christians ARE doing just that......and because most are doing it then it must be okay. Most Christians ignore what God has said about pagan AND traditions of man...why do they do this?
Not everyone who claims to be a christian is a christian. they just had behind the christian name that is what you are seeing, a true born again christian will never love the things in the world or practice sin, i see this all the time too.. i myself was like thing party on saturday church on sunday pretending to be holy, can't expect them to do any better when they don't have the spirit of God in them