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Careful. Do not discount everything in the Bible. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you are at all interested in the historical rise of Christianity then the Bible is invaluable. I am an atheist, by the way, so I don't accept that the Bible is inspired by God, though I do fully acknowledge that it is inspired by belief in God.
The view you've expounded here is shared by too many atheists, but I am completely convinced, even as an atheist, that it is wrong.
The view you've expounded here is shared by too many atheists, but I am completely convinced, even as an atheist, that it is wrong.
D
Cycel,
I know you are aware of people saying you can't quote the bible to prove the bible because that is circular reasoning, right?
The bible is not one book but 66 books by at least 39 authors over 1500 years. Well, what if I quote John to back up Mathew? Do you consider that a circular argument?
The Koran has one author, Mohammad and was written over a short period.
I know you are aware of people saying you can't quote the bible to prove the bible because that is circular reasoning, right?
The bible is not one book but 66 books by at least 39 authors over 1500 years. Well, what if I quote John to back up Mathew? Do you consider that a circular argument?
The Koran has one author, Mohammad and was written over a short period.
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Then educate her. If her views are false in your mind, then take the opportunity to teach, and correct what she doesn't understand. You may be one of the best ones to take on the task. Approach it as an opportunity. The other thing to keep in mind is that likely she has not said anything that in her mind is false. Just a thought.
1
Now as an admin, I'm prone to be more lenient towards atheists in a thread that is about engaging atheists in discussion such as this one.
Yet I'm seeing some posters that seem frustrated about engaging the atheists, in a thread that is about engaging atheists!
If you don't want to engage atheists in discussion, then don't enter a thread that is clearly about such things.
Sometimes I wonder about people.
Yet I'm seeing some posters that seem frustrated about engaging the atheists, in a thread that is about engaging atheists!
If you don't want to engage atheists in discussion, then don't enter a thread that is clearly about such things.
Sometimes I wonder about people.
C
It is my view that it is irrational to believe that the universe came from a cosmic egg
WHICH HAD THE LAWS OF PHYSICS SUSPENDED
which came from nothing
(this is the essence of the Big Bang Theory)
To blindly believe such dogma is superstitious or religious indeed.
Big Bang | Cosmic Egg | Elegant-Universe.webs.com
WHICH HAD THE LAWS OF PHYSICS SUSPENDED
which came from nothing
(this is the essence of the Big Bang Theory)
To blindly believe such dogma is superstitious or religious indeed.
Big Bang | Cosmic Egg | Elegant-Universe.webs.com
Shouldn't this be in the Conspiracy section of threads? Haha, no, I kid. At any rate, I hope soon your ears are inclined to God's truth, as is obviously described in scriptures, if you're waiting for God to just pop out of nowhere and reveal himself, fret not, that time is coming shortly, only it's not going to look so pretty. The reason we care that you should care is not to spread fear, but love for one another in keeping the stability of one's spiritual yearning. It isn't superstition nor coincidence, you're here for a reason in particular. To be more direct and specific, to know God. If you're looking for me to force the notion in your belief system, take a second gander, think on the force that drives this universe.
My atheism does not mean infallibility. And I agree, it is a document that has historical significance. However, I do not take this as a completely correct document. In fact, according to mathematicians, it is a mathematical impossibility that the bible even remotely reflects actual events.
A story, once retold from memory, is altered - on average - after only 3 renditions. Anyone who had played the game of telephone as a child has experienced this. (Worth noting that This is a reason why hearsay isn't permitted in courts as reasonable proof.) This, in combination with the evolution of language concurrent with multiple translations, makes for this document as having any historical accuracy pretty shaky.
A story, once retold from memory, is altered - on average - after only 3 renditions. Anyone who had played the game of telephone as a child has experienced this. (Worth noting that This is a reason why hearsay isn't permitted in courts as reasonable proof.) This, in combination with the evolution of language concurrent with multiple translations, makes for this document as having any historical accuracy pretty shaky.
This is coming from your own modern cultural background where there is little to no emphasis on oral transmission. We don't memorise vast texts or stories; nobody I know of can recite War and Peace from memory. Rote memorisation of narratives isn't popular here, but it is elsewhere in the world.
And I don't know what the the relationship between the federal government and aboriginal tribes is like in the United States, but in my own country courts have ruled that oral histories can be accepted in cases where the culture at hand has extensive experience with that method of learning.
And I don't know what the the relationship between the federal government and aboriginal tribes is like in the United States, but in my own country courts have ruled that oral histories can be accepted in cases where the culture at hand has extensive experience with that method of learning.
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Hi Cathym,
The first question I want to ask you is, how are you?
To be honest, I have not read the whole thread. But in the last pages I noticed that you are looking for logical answers regarding the Bible. I think there is also the problem. It is about faith. Faith is not something I can explain. Nor is it something I can just give it to someone. I think, that a real christian isn't the one that overload you with bible verses and so on. A true christian seeks the best for his fellow men. Why, because we believe in Jesus who who said, Love God above all, with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength and with whole your soul. And love your neighbor as yourself. Why do I believe in Jesus? Well that is an question where I don't have an answer on. It is my faith, that's why Jesus said: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. it is faith. I find peace and strength in my believe. Because of my faith, I feel a connection to Jesus, why? Don't know, it is my faith in Him... Because of that I oversee all my actions in my live and want to do good as much as possible. I am holy, no, certainly not I also have my mistakes, but it sorrows me, why, because the person I have faith in said "care for your fellow men, the same as you care for yourself".
Why is Jesus then the person I want to have faith in? Because I believe he saved me from my sins. Is this an excuse for my mistakes? No certainly not.
I just believe that a man is not able to seamlessly life. But I do believe in a creator that such a life requires of us . That is why Jesus came to us , to do the will of His father for us. Again, that does not make me free of my wrong actions. But I want to live for His glory. Love God above all, with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength and with whole your soul. And love your neighbor as yourself. But my faith is, that I can appear without fear before God, because Jesus bore the punishment for me.
I hope you do not think that this is an excuse to hide my sins. A true Christian want to live according to the two things mentioned above. Anyone else who does not live like that, but says that Jesus is there their savior, is a hypocrite.
You know, it is faith, faith is not to explain. Anyone who used religion for their own interests ( and believe me , that happens very often! ) Is not a Christian.
I'am not trying to convert you, that's not in my power to do. But I can recommend you to read the Bible again. I also want to share with you some good thing to do. Just take some paper and write in large letters the name Jesus on it. Then, when you read the Bible you try to do it in the light of Jesus. What does this person mean to me on every page.
Can I pray for you? I do not mean this pious But it is my faith That He will listen to all the programs or pray His children (you see, faith again .
God bless you Cathym
Ps. I come from the Netherlands, so sorry for my bad English
The first question I want to ask you is, how are you?
To be honest, I have not read the whole thread. But in the last pages I noticed that you are looking for logical answers regarding the Bible. I think there is also the problem. It is about faith. Faith is not something I can explain. Nor is it something I can just give it to someone. I think, that a real christian isn't the one that overload you with bible verses and so on. A true christian seeks the best for his fellow men. Why, because we believe in Jesus who who said, Love God above all, with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength and with whole your soul. And love your neighbor as yourself. Why do I believe in Jesus? Well that is an question where I don't have an answer on. It is my faith, that's why Jesus said: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. it is faith. I find peace and strength in my believe. Because of my faith, I feel a connection to Jesus, why? Don't know, it is my faith in Him... Because of that I oversee all my actions in my live and want to do good as much as possible. I am holy, no, certainly not
I also have my mistakes, but it sorrows me, why, because the person I have faith in said "care for your fellow men, the same as you care for yourself". Why is Jesus then the person I want to have faith in? Because I believe he saved me from my sins. Is this an excuse for my mistakes? No certainly not.
I just believe that a man is not able to seamlessly life. But I do believe in a creator that such a life requires of us . That is why Jesus came to us , to do the will of His father for us. Again, that does not make me free of my wrong actions. But I want to live for His glory. Love God above all, with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength and with whole your soul. And love your neighbor as yourself. But my faith is, that I can appear without fear before God, because Jesus bore the punishment for me.
I hope you do not think that this is an excuse to hide my sins. A true Christian want to live according to the two things mentioned above. Anyone else who does not live like that, but says that Jesus is there their savior, is a hypocrite.
You know, it is faith, faith is not to explain. Anyone who used religion for their own interests ( and believe me , that happens very often! ) Is not a Christian.
I'am not trying to convert you, that's not in my power to do. But I can recommend you to read the Bible again. I also want to share with you some good thing to do. Just take some paper and write in large letters the name Jesus on it. Then, when you read the Bible you try to do it in the light of Jesus. What does this person mean to me on every page.
Can I pray for you? I do not mean this pious
But it is my faith That He will listen to all the programs or pray His children (you see, faith again .God bless you Cathym
Ps. I come from the Netherlands, so sorry for my bad English
Right.
I don't know that I would call that circular. You can't for example quote Paul to prove Paul's statement that Jesus is divine. That’s circular. Can you, though, quote John to prove a point in Matthew? I really think it has to be taken on a point by point basis and it really depends on what you want to demonstrate. You might quote Matthew to show that John's belief 'X' was already prevalent in this earlier time, but I don't see how you could use it to demonstrate, for example, the truthfulness of a claim. If for example Matthew and John both claim the presence of a blue penguin in the crowd at the time of Jesus' trial, that is not evidence of a blue penguin, it is only evidence that both gospel authors know the story about the blue penguin. Do you see what I mean?
I'm not sure it is that straight forward with the Koran. In Christianity there has been a great deal of scholarship on the Bible these last 200 years, but with the Koran questioning leads to loss of ones uppermost appendage. Islam is not exactly fertile ground for any sort of critical examination of its sacred text.
I don't know that I would call that circular. You can't for example quote Paul to prove Paul's statement that Jesus is divine. That’s circular. Can you, though, quote John to prove a point in Matthew? I really think it has to be taken on a point by point basis and it really depends on what you want to demonstrate. You might quote Matthew to show that John's belief 'X' was already prevalent in this earlier time, but I don't see how you could use it to demonstrate, for example, the truthfulness of a claim. If for example Matthew and John both claim the presence of a blue penguin in the crowd at the time of Jesus' trial, that is not evidence of a blue penguin, it is only evidence that both gospel authors know the story about the blue penguin. Do you see what I mean?
I'm not sure it is that straight forward with the Koran. In Christianity there has been a great deal of scholarship on the Bible these last 200 years, but with the Koran questioning leads to loss of ones uppermost appendage. Islam is not exactly fertile ground for any sort of critical examination of its sacred text.
C
(2 Peter 1:19-21) Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and YOU are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in YOUR hearts. 20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.
B
Well friend, if you continue reading after 10:34 He talks about those who follow Him (v. 35-39). Remember also, He was talking to a Jewish audience who believed the messiah would come to bring peace in the physical world, but Jesus was actually meant to bring a sword, that those who follow after Him must give up their life of themselves and follow after Him, which can cause a stir between people and their faith. The sword will separate who is the real follower. This sword is judgement. I see no contradiction
I do have an honest question, and if you can't divorce yourself from any exaggerated and unwarranted indignation in your reply, then please refrain. I am not rude to you - I expect the same.
Assuming, for a second, that God is real and that everything in the bible is true. And that God creates miracles for people. Now, either God intervines or he doesn't. To interfere sometimes and not others strikes me as cruel and capricious. How do you square that circle?
Also, if god is all powerful and omnipotent, why did he choose to reveal himself to only a handful of stupified illiterate peasants instead say, China where they had literacy, medicine and were far more advanced. Since there are places "christ's word" has still not reached, doesn't this seem to be rather incompetent?
Third and lastly, you do not choose your beliefs. They are a product of whatever facts or upbringing are rolling around in your head. If you disagree - you cannot step to the edge of a skyscraper and try to convice yourself by a sheer force of will that gravity doesn't work. So if you can't choose your beliefs, why would he make heaven or hell continent on doing just that? That seems more like a god that opens up doors to hell, not close them. Further - what parent would ever torture their child for an eternity no matter what they did? I wouldn't purposely burn my child or abandon them for "disrespecting me".
Alternatively, is it possible we have an innate sense of justice and something that is not always served in life. There is plenty of injustice in this world. Is it possible that we would like to think that murderers go to hell and that good people go to heaven so we invented a system (even in fantasy) to create that?
After all, The idea of hell isn't mentioned in the bible until gentle Jesus.
Respectful answers please
Assuming, for a second, that God is real and that everything in the bible is true. And that God creates miracles for people. Now, either God intervines or he doesn't. To interfere sometimes and not others strikes me as cruel and capricious. How do you square that circle?
Also, if god is all powerful and omnipotent, why did he choose to reveal himself to only a handful of stupified illiterate peasants instead say, China where they had literacy, medicine and were far more advanced. Since there are places "christ's word" has still not reached, doesn't this seem to be rather incompetent?
Third and lastly, you do not choose your beliefs. They are a product of whatever facts or upbringing are rolling around in your head. If you disagree - you cannot step to the edge of a skyscraper and try to convice yourself by a sheer force of will that gravity doesn't work. So if you can't choose your beliefs, why would he make heaven or hell continent on doing just that? That seems more like a god that opens up doors to hell, not close them. Further - what parent would ever torture their child for an eternity no matter what they did? I wouldn't purposely burn my child or abandon them for "disrespecting me".
Alternatively, is it possible we have an innate sense of justice and something that is not always served in life. There is plenty of injustice in this world. Is it possible that we would like to think that murderers go to hell and that good people go to heaven so we invented a system (even in fantasy) to create that?
After all, The idea of hell isn't mentioned in the bible until gentle Jesus.
Respectful answers please
M
Alright, I'll give it a shot.
Therefore say to them, Thus declares the LORD of hosts: Return to me, says the LORD of hosts, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 1:3
And before any atheist gets in a tizzy about me quoting the Bible, let me say this. Any answer I give to your questions is going to be in line with what the Bible says. I'm not quoting the Bible to prove something to you, I'm quoting the Bible to give you the Christian answer to your question.
God reveals Himself to more than just the hundreds and thousands of people God interacted with in the Bible. God continues to reveal Himself today. Just have a look at my testimony. http://christianchat.com/testimonies/73319-my-journey-having-evil-spirit-cast-out-me.html
According to this logic, I could have never gone from being an atheist to a Christian, and yet I did. Seems reality is contrary to your logic. Also, if what you say is true and you can't choose your beliefs, but rather you only believe what you were raised to believe by your parents, then according to that logic, the only reason you're an atheist is because your parents are. How is any of this rational?
Possibly, now that's an interesting question to ponder. However, if none of it was real, then all of the people believing in the system were believing it for naught.
Well, that's just blatently false, but others have already pointed that out.
Therefore say to them, Thus declares the LORD of hosts: Return to me, says the LORD of hosts, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 1:3
And before any atheist gets in a tizzy about me quoting the Bible, let me say this. Any answer I give to your questions is going to be in line with what the Bible says. I'm not quoting the Bible to prove something to you, I'm quoting the Bible to give you the Christian answer to your question.
God reveals Himself to more than just the hundreds and thousands of people God interacted with in the Bible. God continues to reveal Himself today. Just have a look at my testimony. http://christianchat.com/testimonies/73319-my-journey-having-evil-spirit-cast-out-me.html
According to this logic, I could have never gone from being an atheist to a Christian, and yet I did. Seems reality is contrary to your logic. Also, if what you say is true and you can't choose your beliefs, but rather you only believe what you were raised to believe by your parents, then according to that logic, the only reason you're an atheist is because your parents are. How is any of this rational?
Possibly, now that's an interesting question to ponder. However, if none of it was real, then all of the people believing in the system were believing it for naught.
Well, that's just blatently false, but others have already pointed that out.