What Laws are still valid to christians

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, it is.

If there is no obedience (works), God's grace was not there in the first place.

You can't void God's grace if it were never there.


I'm not sure what you mean here.

Because your trying to follow a law which can not make you righteous, So you how to be righteous. And do anything to make you a mature believer in Christ.

Instead of focusing on the law. Focus on ministry. this is our spirit of worship God wants us to do. The law was for Isreal and litergal worship was for Israel. God wants us to worship him in spirit and trueth, In SERVING OTHERS., Not focusing on self and trying to see how good we can be at obeying some law, or repeating some ceremony, or attending church once a weeK

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can we imagine a hanger for a moment...

View attachment 59807

I think this was the point of what Christ said. The law "hangs" on the two commandments he gave. Christ's commandments don't replace the law. Like a hanger "holds up" and "supports" the clothes draped around it, loving the Father with every fiber of one's being, and loving your neighbor as if that neighbor was you, "holds up" and "supports" the Father's law and the words of the prophets. It's the "frame" by which the "suit" can maintain it's shape and not be wrinkled or damaged.

But in my analogy; if the law is likened to a suit and Christ's commandments likened to a hanger, would it make sense for the hanger to *replace* the suit? Without the clothes, what does the hanger hold up? Likewise, without the law what do Christ's commandments support? Again, without hangers clothes couldn't maintain their *proper form*...and without Christ's commandments the law can not be *properly fulfilled*.

You see the danger in not understanding this relationship is - and I by no means am accusing anyone here of this (including you Elin, I'm just making reference to your post) - if Christ's commandments do not "hold up" the law but replace it, it becomes acceptable for anyone to define their *own* version of "love" for the Father...because then the next logical question is "ok, *how* do I love the Father with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength?" And what I've often seen by many professed believers in my short time alive is they often superimpose the world's definition of "love" onto the Father, where "love" is merely an emotional feeling; a feel good moment whenever one "thinks about" the person or does something they "feel" that person would like or wouldn't mind, saying "oh what's wrong with me worshiping the Father *this* way? I can't see God having a problem with this."

It's a slippery slope that has led to multiple denominations, multiple religions, and even to "do what thou wilt" (the commandment of satanism).

Again, I'm not accusing anyone here...but there MUST - by necessity - be a immutable, eternal standard by which to love our Father, the Most High Yah...and Christ's commandments make conforming to that standard MUCH easier. "For my yolk is easy and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:30).

Yes. And if you look at it. What do the two commands do? They are ALL outward focused commands. CHristian ministry, Being lights to the world. Serving your brothers and sisters in Christ. Making disciples of those around you (bringing them to Christ and helping them) Serving this in need etc etc.

If we focus on these, Everything inside the hanger (the laws) will automatically be fulfilled in us, and we will be obeying the commands of God.

we do not focus on the law. we focus on ministry.

 

[Welshman]

Jesus is the law? The maker of it the giver of it, the architect of it and the whole sum of it also? Jesus is the total fullfillment of all the law. He himself is the judge over the law, we attain to be the same as him not by obeying the law we cnt ? No trusting in him we will fullfil the demands of the law, and every step of this journey the enablement the effort the will is also Jesus its just that its happening in our bodies? This is the simplicity in what our lord says

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what about the ones in the O/T?

the ones spoken of in the NT are clear..

Many of the OT laws have been done away with, they do not relate to us as a church, and were just given until Christ came. SOme were just for the nation of Isreal, and related to their time period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually the penalty was the burden of Col 2:14.

In Eph 2:15, it was the regulations of food, defilement and cleansings (the law with its commands
and regulations) that caused hostility between, and separated, the Jew and the Gentile with a wall
of partition.

Those regulations were abolished on the cross, which accomplished two things:

1) peace between Jew and Gentile, by abolishing the regulations which were the cause
of their hostility, and

2) peace between both of them and God, by removing the sin (the cause of the enmity--Ro 5:10),
of those who have faith in the blood of Christ (Ro 3:25).

In Eph 2:15, the hostility and wall of partition were "the law with its commands and regulations,"
not the penalty.


That's Col 2:8-14.

the barrier, or wall which was between us

That's Eph 2:14.

Are you bootstrapping "the law with its commands and regulations" of Eph
to the "written code (penalty) that was against us" of Col
in order to make the penalty (written code) of Col abolished instead of
the "law with its commandments and regulations" of Eph abolished, as the text states?

Nah, you wouldn't do that. . .right?

Christ did not die to remove ceremonial things which caused division between jew and gentile. He died so the barrier between God and mankind could be removed.

The penalty of not obeying the law (sin) is death. The gift of God is eternal life through Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

...Spiritually I dont see the Law of Yahweh being a burden or oppisition, I see it as a perfect standard, a loving and beautiful moral cose for our ell being and the well being of others, and Instructions to love Yahweh the way He says!

Of course you don't because you're so special!

If only Peter, the head of the apostleship to the circumcision, had been so blessed as you are. Then he wouldn't have so ignorantly stated:

So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the [gentile] disciples a yoke [of the law of Moses] that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we [Hebrews] believe we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way those [gentiles] also are.” Acts 15:10-11​

</sarc>

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This scripture alone should make them think and examine themselves.. but they don't want to do that, i just don't understand man.. it's like the word of God is no effect to them

Its the flesh

The flesh wants to be proud. If I can look at the law. And see myself as being obedient to God. I can go to God with confidence in my flesh saying I have done the best I can.

That is again why the law does not work. It is all about self. If we are focused on self. (which is sin by the way) we will not be doing what God wants us to do. Which is love others and minister to them

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It was not their job to understand, it was their job to obey.

Scripture does not mention their understanding of it.

I think a clear study of the OT shows for most of their time as priests. they did not understand it at all..

 

[cfultz3]

No one has ever been made righteous (just) by the law, for the just shall live by faith.

If you would quote the whole post you would see that I said it never JUSTIFIED ANYONE...not even one.

But, it certainly made some righteous....who did Jesus go and get in Hades? David? Moses? Job? etc? If they were not righteous (right standing before God), then all those under the Law perished....


Thank you...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but are not the O/T His as well?...after all, Jesus is God right?

David understood. Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. Do you see even he understood the law could not make him right with God?

Why did david sin? Because he did not know and understand, Do not commit adultry? NO!

Because instead of being where God wanted him to be, out leading his army. He stayed at home. If he was doing what God wanbted him to do. He never would have sinned with bathseba. It was NOT because he forgot or did not focus on the law. He knew it was wrong when he did it, The law did NOTHING to help him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Law made some, those who abided by the whole Law, righteous, seeing that Jesus went and delivered them from Hades.

The Law made NONE justified (not guilty and not sentenced to death), seeing that Jesus had to go to Hades and deliver them.

The Law cannot make us righteous now because that would require one to reject the ONLY appeasing Sacrifice acceptable to God in place of animal sacrifice.

The Law can make one righteous, but that righteous will no longer deliver one, seeing that would require Jesus to die again to deliver them from Hades.

Let us not forget all the righteous ones of the Law who died awaiting their Messiah.....

Lets not forget. The Law condemned those people you call righteous.. Because they could not fulfill it.

They were righteous because of the propititation of God which would send his son, so he passed over the sins previously commited.

The people focused on service. and what God wanted. Doing so. they because righteous. Not because of the law. But because they did not break the law because they were not focused on self.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My apologies for misrepresent your point.

Its ok. I figured you did not see the start..lol

 

[Welshman]

Did Jesus indeed go to hades to rescue king David ? I was of the view David is in his grave and will remain so until god raises him? Am I mistaken on this?

 

[cfultz3]

Lets not forget. The Law condemned those people you call righteous.. Because they could not fulfill it.

They were righteous because of the propititation of God which would send his son, so he passed over the sins previously commited.

The Law condemned (sentenced to death) all, not one was justified (found not guilty).

If none was found righteous (right standing before God) by the Law, then all under the Old Covenant received eternal condemnation. Yet, God IS the God of Abraham.....

They were righteous because they kept the Law: Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Most definitely, they who were righteous of the Law were justified from that adverse sentencing when their long awaited Messiah delivered them from that sentencing.

The people focused on service. and what God wanted. Doing so. they because righteous. Not because of the law. But because they did not break the law because they were not focused on self.

We all have sinned at least once. Luckily for them, they had a sacrificial system which made them have a right standing before God again when they offered up the proper sacrifice. Luckily for them also, they who were righteous of the Law had the same Everlasting Sacrifice we do and as we are now, were delivered from judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Law condemned (sentenced to death) all, not one was justified (found not guilty).

If none was found righteous (right standing before God) by the Law, then all under the Old Covenant received eternal condemnation. Yet, God IS the God of Abraham.....

They were righteous because they kept the Law: Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Most definitely, they who were righteous of the Law were justified from that adverse sentencing when their long awaited Messiah delivered them from that sentencing.



We all have sinned at least once. Luckily for them, they had a sacrificial system which made them have a right standing before God again when they offered up the proper sacrifice. Luckily for them also, they who were righteous of the Law had the same Everlasting Sacrifice we do and as we are now, were delivered from judgment.

did those sacrifices make them righteous before God?

 

[cfultz3]

did those sacrifices make them righteous before God?

Those sacrifices placed them back into a right standing before God when they sinned (sacrifices were for the forgiving of sins). They who kept the Law properly went to Abraham's Bosom.

But, those sacrifices never justified them, seeing that they all, down to the last one who died with Christ, went to Hades to await for their justification (reversal of the adverse sentencing of death attached to the Law) which only could have came from our dear Lord Jesus Christ. Indeed, not only our great Deliverer, but also those righteous of the Law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those sacrifices placed them back into a right standing before God when they sinned (sacrifices were for the forgiving of sins). They who kept the Law properly went to Abraham's Bosom.

But, those sacrifices never justified them, seeing that they all, down to the last one who died with Christ, went to Hades to await for their justification (reversal of the adverse sentencing of death attached to the Law) which only could have came from our dear Lord Jesus Christ. Indeed, not only our great Deliverer, but also those righteous of the Law.

Not trying to argue brother. But what does the book of hebrews state the blood of bulls and goats could NEVER do?

 

[cfultz3]

Not trying to argue brother. But what does the book of hebrews state the blood of bulls and goats could NEVER do?

lol...sorry for the long-windedness

By His own blood did He enter once into the Holy Place and obtained everlasting redemption (deliverance), seeing that if the blood of bulls and of goats....sprinkling the unclean (defiled, polluted) does santify for the purifying of the flesh, how much more....(Heb 9:12-14)

The sacrifices offered under the Law never made any one perfect (without sin). If they did, then such sacrifices would have ceased, seeing that their conscious would have been purged of sins. But there is a remembrance of sin every year as concerning those sacrifices. It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. (Heb 10:1-4)


The blood of bulls and goats sanctified their flesh. But it never made them perfect (complete, as we are with our perpetual Sacrifice) as the blood of Jesus does for us. Each year they had to sacrifice for forgiveness of sins (if I said took away their sins, I apologize). It is the forgiveness of sins which causes one to stand right before God, and, without forgiveness, we stand condemned. In Jesus, our sins are taken away and are not imputed to our account. But, because they still had sin on their record, they HAD to face death until their Savior came.

If they had a Savior who came and delivered them, then they had a right standing before God. God would not deliver the wicked from judgement. If one is not wicked, then they are righteous.

Again, if I gave the impression or said that their sins were taken away by animal sacrifice, my apologies to all. But, they who kept the Law had their righteousness (state of standing before God properly) through the Law. If there were none righteous of the Law, then none were neither justified (found not guilty) through the sacrifice of their Messiah when He went to deliver them.

 

[cfultz3]

Not trying to argue brother.

Under peace, I have no problem with explaining myself. And I know you are not being argumentative.

 

[Hizikyah]

No you do not. If you did, You would be more worried about what person God wants you to serve at any given moment, What group of people God want you to minister to, at work, home or church. If your married and have children. You would be focused on what you as a husband and father need to do to meet their physical and spiritual needs. etc etc etc.

and when you do this....

YOU DO NOT NEED THE MOSAIC LAW. BECAUSE

1. It can not tell you how to do this
2. it can not tell you why you need to do this
3. It can nbot give you the faith you need to have in God to have the power to do this
4. It can not give you the resources needed to do this
5. While your doing this. you would not think of breaking the commands (being self centered) because your too focused on ministering others to be focused with self.

Thats because your not listening.

You can;t follow them by just them alone, Doing so is under your own power. and can only cause you to boast.

If youir focused on love of others. You would not even think of doing them. so WHY DO YOU FOCUS ON THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE??

We are not telling you you need to go out and break those commands, We are trying to show you if you focus on others and ministry, you do not need to focus on the law.

Living a life more like Yahweh wants and lees what the world wants has allowed me to have more time to pray, study, fellowship and witness. The sanctification of Yahweh's Law has been a key factor in all of this.

Also I= never said me, me, meee, meee,.meee, Yahweh has called and guided me continually.

"If youir focused on love of others. You would not even think of doing them. so WHY DO YOU FOCUS ON THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE??"

Because if I ignore them this corruptable flesh is at risk of twisting love into what I consider love, most "spirit walking" people I have met dont even come close to the love in the Law, not saying I do or I am better than anyone, but reading the Instructions of Yahweh is GUARANTEED to show me what HE considers love and the Spirit of Yahweh can and will show me exactly what these Incstructions mean.

tell me how many people have you met that match this level of love? (they are out there but not many)

Deuteronomy 10:16, "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and do not be stiff-necked any longer."

Love in practice, not in jaw flappin:

Leviticus 19:9-18,29-31 "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not completely harvest the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and the stranger; I am Yahweh your Father. You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie one to another. Do not vow falsely with My Name, and so profane the Name of your Father. I am Yahweh. You shall not defraud your neighbor, nor rob him. Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumblingblock in front of the blind; but reverence your Father. I am Yahweh. Do not pervert judgment: You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor fairly. You shall not go about tale-bearing or slandering among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am Yahweh. You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother or your sister frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt. Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor; whether a brother or an enemy, as yourself. I am Yahweh.Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; or the land will fall into harlotry, and the land will become full of wickedness. Do not turn to mediums nor familiar spirits. Do not seek after them, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh. You shall stand up before the gray headed, and you shall honor the presence of an Elder or Teacher; thereby giving reverence to your Heavenly Father. I am Yahweh. If a stranger lives with you in your and, do not mistreat him. The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh. Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight, or quantity. You shall have honest balances, honest weights, an honest ephah; a dry measure, and an honest in; a liquid measure. I am Yahweh your Father Who brought you out of the land of Egypt; Therefore, you must observe all My statutes and My judgments, and perform and do them. I am Yahweh."