The falling away

[homwardbound]

People will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist,along with a multitude of other disasters.

And if we are here in that time to make the choice are we willing to go to death, and or see others we care about go to death and actually see them killed. Do we value anything more than God here on earth and able still not take the Mark?
Are we prepared. not having earthly food and have Mana from Heaven to feed us?

 

[homwardbound]

I believe we will face many trials as Christians we are hated.The devil and his army will always use his followers or whatever he can to hurt us.Or even have us killed.

The desire of the enemy is for us is to deny Christ and Father

 

[homwardbound]

We need to stay close to God .At all times praying and living faithfully prepared for anything pray to never be deceived, by our enemy.

Thanks Sister for standing in Faith to God in loving to everyone as God has called us all to be

God is faithfully just to his children, his sheep know his voice and follow. no weapon formed against Father's sheep can ever prosper. No one can snatch God's sheep out of his hand. The work God began in his sheep will be completed by God living in and through us, us by belief in God through Son are completed and Stand and are not moved in what God has done Through Son
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

I thank God for this rest in God through Son, here and now while I walk in this unredeemed flesh that God by God's operation killed and made me alive in God's Spirit via the cross of Christ where one is complete in Christ. Death., burial and resurrection
God's doing not man's

 

[homwardbound]

I don't know. the way things look I can;t see it being very long, but who knows. may still be hundreds of years away, But we still should prepair like it is tomorrow.

Yes be prepared and have our oil lamps filled, as the five Virgins in the parable did/ We will not know the day the time nor the year; that is in our Father's hands, spiritually speaking

 

[homwardbound]

Saints on mount zion,I had a dream. I was with a multitude of people at mount zion, in a white robe they all had on a white robe also.Would this mean anything?

Just wait For God to reveal what it is to you
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[homwardbound]

Satan doesn’t want God’s children to see the reality of the truth, he wants us to reject it, so I feel I should address the false doctrine that says the law given to Moses is weak, for the sake of throwing it away. For the purpose of shedding light on this doctrine, that I believe is the basis for the “falling away”. In summary, I will recap my experiences, and the words of others who demand the Mosaic Law to be labeled as nothing more than carnal, or physical.

I begin by quoting a verse that is so often used by this doctrine that wants to negate the Mosaic Law. Romans 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by *nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Those that want the law of Moses to vanish away, claim that these Gentiles were believers in Christ capable of obeying the law in the Spirit without its instructions. Those same people defame the law by means of physical innuendoes only, or carnal only, when Paul says the “the law is Spiritual.” They use this scripture as a means to say that Christians know automatically have the law of God in their hearts without need instruction. This is a mindset that enhances the “falling away” from the truth.
So I went to the concordance and this is what I found.
*Nature 5449=from 5453 meaning growth by germination (natural production).

It is very important that we understand that the Mosaic Law has numerous instructions as to how to take care of crops, fruit trees, and farmland, let alone the building of houses, preparation, and storage of food. It also gives instructions concerning defecation, and things related for cleanliness. With that said, I don’t think that Paul was saying the Gentiles were saved, as such, because they kept the law by *nature.

Another verse that has the same Greek word *nature is;
Galatians 2:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“We who are Jews by *nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,” This verse clearly points out that Jews, and all mankind, for that matter, are conceived and born according to our heritage, and the child born cannot change that.

bottom line:
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[just-me]

See post 230, and 231
I have been told that Paul was referring to some laws in the Epistles as “Roman law” when referring to
Galatians 3:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

I responded: “Really, wow, I didn't have any idea. Do you have something that is in scripture to confirm that? It would be very interesting to me to read up on that Paul is not referring to the Mosaic Law. Never heard that before. That would put a different slant on everything that I have ever heard.”

Needless to say, there is no scripture to back that up, so it would be wise on my part to ignore this type of “edification.” We are exhorted by the scriptures to search the scriptures and compare them by the power of the Holy Spirit. If the Bible seems to contradict itself, we are then receiving the wrong message. Keep this in mind, Jesus taught under the Old Testament. After His ascension, He sent us the “Comforter.” John claims that the Word was in the beginning in John chapter 1. So it is very understandable that the “Word” is what delivers us the Holy Spirit. Without the “Word,” there is no Spirit of understanding. If one negates part of the “Word, “ then the Spirit of understanding is also in part, and not whole.

So does Galatians 3:19 have nothing to do with law given to Moses? If that were the case, then the “Seed” would not have been involved.
Let’s see what Paul was really saying.

Galatians 3:17-25 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The covenant in verse 17 was the legality of the Mosaic Law confirmed previously of God in Christ does NOT do away with the promise, as some would want us to think.
The inheritance in verse 18 is by promise, not by legality.
The transgressions in verse 19 are exposed by legality, until the fulfillment through Christ.
The mediator in verse 20 does not mediate something that is in agreement with itself.
The promises in verse 21 are plural, and the law is not at odds with those promises, because there would be no reason for promises unto righteousness of transgressions were done away with by the law. Obviously, the law can’t do that.
The sin in verse 22 has been made known by the law (compare with verse 19) so we can see the reason for these promises.
The law and faith in verse 23 are working with each other. Paul says; Romans 7:8b For without the law sin was dead. And even more in Romans 5:13b but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So I ask, what would be the purpose of a promise if there weren’t a reason for it?
The schoolmaster in verse 24 is our escort to Christ.
The faith in verse 25 is the maturity that is given through the Word that issues us the understanding by the Comforter. (The Holy Spirit)

Faith can be, and should increased in our lives according to 2 Corinthians 10:15. Paul even confesses that he didn’t have it all in 1 Corinthians 13:2. Therefore, there are many things in our lives where we still need an escort to Christ. Paul is fed up with the self-righteous attitude that says we are perfect without understanding, and even going so far as to purposefully deny it. Paul reveals this to us when he says;
1 Corinthians 15:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Take advantage of the letter, and appreciate the promises.

How do we lead others to Christ if we don’t follow this sequence of events listed by Paul? By neglecting this format, do we contributing to the “falling away” leading to false conversions?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok. Let me see if I get this right.

The church is to follow the law. To say it is done away with is to "fall away" So I guess we better start rebuilding the temple. Making sure every male is circumcised, Start sacrificing some animals. And start finding the tribe of levi so they can take care of our churches, Oh, and don't forget to tithe ten % of your crops to these levites. They are not allowed owning land.

And there is no need to watch and be ready because Christ could return at any day, I mean he All these horrific things must happen before he returns, so we can go on living our lioves anyway we want, We will know when it is close to his time of return by the signs. And don;t bother to hurry and get your loved ones saved, and your friends, and anyone else. Just let them continue as they are, they have time, Christ is not coming back anytime soon! Lets all live in sin and enjoy life. YOLA! We have time!! Thats what we are being told!! What good is the law anyway? I can break it all I want, Jesus is not coming back at any second..He still has at least 7 years before he returns!!


Rolls Eyes!

 

[PlainWord]

Let me also say that the study of these things requires great effort and love for God's word, as such those who do study this should never resort to name-calling. I would make a case in saying that those who resort to attacking each other over eschatological positions do not really understand the issues. When you read a book by scholars and academics about these things, they explain various positions and give reasons why they believe in theirs. It is only loud-mouthed factions that call down Satanic wrath on views they believe to be wrong. We are always called to speak the truth in love, we don't speak the truth in hate, nor should we neglect the truth to emphasize love.

You say this because you don't understand how Satan is planning to use his Rapture lie. If you did, you would be crying from the rooftops trying to warn people as I am trying to do. It is one thing to have an honest disagreement over an eschatology position, as you call it, but it is quite another thing if one position is NOT based on the Bible and rather has taken the Word of God and twisted it into a totally different meaning. The consequences will be the slaughter of untold millions of Christians. Not only will they lose status in heaven, they will be gone from earth at a time when they are needed most to oppose the A/C. I realize few people see this truth but that doesn't excuse people from rewriting scripture which is exactly what the Pre-Trib Rapture theory does.

Look at the theory. It teaches the following, none of which can be found in the Bible:

A whole additional return (clouds only) of our Lord BEFORE the second coming
This return being BEFORE the Tribulation
A taking of the entire church to heaven
The demonetization of all Tribulation era saints, including the 144K, saying they weren't worthy
That the church is the Bride of Christ, totally dismissing God's chosen people Israel, when it is the church grafted in with them and they were the original bride, See Hosea 2:16-19.

It's not wrong to claim Rev. 3:10 as a promise when the promise is to be kept from the "hour of trial" that will come on the whole world. This is a promise of protection that is different from being protected from, through, or in spite of judgment. It's a promise to be protected from the very time of judgment itself!

Do you understand that the test/trial is the Temptation of Satan? If you do, then you should know that what one believes concerning which "Christ" appears first, will dictate who is deceived and who is not. Satan wants us to think the real Messiah comes first so that he will be believed. The Rapture theory is his primary tool to fool Christians. Untold millions will die as a result. Read Isaiah 65. It's right there and it ties perfectly with the Great Multitude.

What we see in Rev. is an awesome time period where many are killed and many worship the Anti-christ, and many worship God and Jesus Christ. I believe it will be a time of evangelization that the world has never seen. Not only the 144,000 who will be awesome witnesses, but also the 2 witnesses having power like Moses and Elijah.

Paul says there will be a falling away. You say there "will be a time of evangelization that the world has never seen." I wonder who is right? You or Paul??

The pre-trib position has nearly 200 years of scholarship behind it now, it was never an attempt to escape the earth, it was always an attempt to understand Scripture.

Post trib has 2,000 years behind it!!! Pre-Trib is a FAILED ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE. Post Trib can be totally explained, every bit of scripture is consistent with the Post Trib Teaching of Christ, Paul and John. Failure to understand something does not give license to alter the Word of God and put in new doctrines especially when those doctrines are completely contrary to the clear spoken Word of Christ, and especially when said doctrine will cause millions upon millions to be slain.

I will never apologize or be kind to theories that Satan is behind. I will, however, love my fellow Christian even when he's wrong and will attempt to be respectful of them but I will not respect their false doctrine nor do I believe Christ would respect their false doctrine which attempts to make void the very Word of God.

 

[PlainWord]

maybe just learn to let your flesh be dead with God right here and now daily, so that you might be able to hear how to answer in the Spirit of God, Paul is pretty clear here on this
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Philippians 3:11 if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

The flesh is very tricky as to not want to be at fault, so it claims the Law is at fault, and nothing can be further from the truth. The Law is not at fault, flesh is the problem, written by Paul all over the epistles he wrote
praying for us to see this truth in Father through Christ

It is a fine line, I agree. While we are to not live in flesh and not fight with other Christians, we are to defend the Word of God and we are to warn and admonish fellow believers when they start falling for and teaching false doctrines. There are repeated examples of Paul doing this very thing. He perhaps was more tactful than me, I admit I need to work on my delivery sometimes. But I am also reminded at the outrage Christ showed for the money changers and Peter held no punches when he wrote this, which is totally on point here. I at least did not call anyone "untaught or unstable."

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[homwardbound]

I believe we will face many trials as Christians we are hated.The devil and his army will always use his followers or whatever he can to hurt us.Or even have us killed.

And what God has showed me is the enemy is powerless, as shown in the first Chapter of Job. Satan has to have permission, and that tells me the enemy is powerless and I so I can count on God, anything bad that happens to me as a Joy, for God is through my travails perfecting me in believing God, God has a purpose and all things in the long run work out for the good of God and his Children.

 

[homwardbound]

See post 230, and 231
I have been told that Paul was referring to some laws in the Epistles as “Roman law” when referring to
Galatians 3:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

I responded: “Really, wow, I didn't have any idea. Do you have something that is in scripture to confirm that? It would be very interesting to me to read up on that Paul is not referring to the Mosaic Law. Never heard that before. That would put a different slant on everything that I have ever heard.”

Needless to say, there is no scripture to back that up, so it would be wise on my part to ignore this type of “edification.” We are exhorted by the scriptures to search the scriptures and compare them by the power of the Holy Spirit. If the Bible seems to contradict itself, we are then receiving the wrong message. Keep this in mind, Jesus taught under the Old Testament. After His ascension, He sent us the “Comforter.” John claims that the Word was in the beginning in John chapter 1. So it is very understandable that the “Word” is what delivers us the Holy Spirit. Without the “Word,” there is no Spirit of understanding. If one negates part of the “Word, “ then the Spirit of understanding is also in part, and not whole.

So does Galatians 3:19 have nothing to do with law given to Moses? If that were the case, then the “Seed” would not have been involved.
Let’s see what Paul was really saying.

Galatians 3:17-25 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The covenant in verse 17 was the legality of the Mosaic Law confirmed previously of God in Christ does NOT do away with the promise, as some would want us to think.
The inheritance in verse 18 is by promise, not by legality.
The transgressions in verse 19 are exposed by legality, until the fulfillment through Christ.
The mediator in verse 20 does not mediate something that is in agreement with itself.
The promises in verse 21 are plural, and the law is not at odds with those promises, because there would be no reason for promises unto righteousness of transgressions were done away with by the law. Obviously, the law can’t do that.
The sin in verse 22 has been made known by the law (compare with verse 19) so we can see the reason for these promises.
The law and faith in verse 23 are working with each other. Paul says; Romans 7:8b For without the law sin was dead. And even more in Romans 5:13b but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So I ask, what would be the purpose of a promise if there weren’t a reason for it?
The schoolmaster in verse 24 is our escort to Christ.
The faith in verse 25 is the maturity that is given through the Word that issues us the understanding by the Comforter. (The Holy Spirit)

Faith can be, and should increased in our lives according to 2 Corinthians 10:15. Paul even confesses that he didn’t have it all in 1 Corinthians 13:2. Therefore, there are many things in our lives where we still need an escort to Christ. Paul is fed up with the self-righteous attitude that says we are perfect without understanding, and even going so far as to purposefully deny it. Paul reveals this to us when he says;
1 Corinthians 15:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Take advantage of the letter, and appreciate the promises.

How do we lead others to Christ if we don’t follow this sequence of events listed by Paul? By neglecting this format, do we contributing to the “falling away” leading to false conversions?

Is your point, that one needs to know they need life in God, born again life, not a vending machine, I put in I get out what I want here and now in this life here on earth here and now, because things are just not going the way I think they should. Kind of like when we were babies growing up, I want. I want I want WAH!!!!! cry, cry, cry as what happened in the day of provocation
Thanks just-me

 

[homwardbound]

Ok. Let me see if I get this right.

The church is to follow the law. To say it is done away with is to "fall away" So I guess we better start rebuilding the temple. Making sure every male is circumcised, Start sacrificing some animals. And start finding the tribe of levi so they can take care of our churches, Oh, and don't forget to tithe ten % of your crops to these levites. They are not allowed owning land.

And there is no need to watch and be ready because Christ could return at any day, I mean he All these horrific things must happen before he returns, so we can go on living our lioves anyway we want, We will know when it is close to his time of return by the signs. And don;t bother to hurry and get your loved ones saved, and your friends, and anyone else. Just let them continue as they are, they have time, Christ is not coming back anytime soon! Lets all live in sin and enjoy life. YOLA! We have time!! Thats what we are being told!! What good is the law anyway? I can break it all I want, Jesus is not coming back at any second..He still has at least 7 years before he returns!!


Rolls Eyes!

So EG all in all is the school master not needed anymore? For those that need Christ?
Did Paul bring the Corinthians back under the school master in 1 Cor. Who were taking God's grace for granted and using it for an occasion for their own flesh selfish desires? And finally they saw through to the purpose of being forgiven as in being given new life in the Spirit of God by them having a GODLY repentance in place of the worldly one they had
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Being under the Law led them to Godly repentance knowing they needed God for life, that in their flesh they were dead to life eternal

 

[homwardbound]

It is a fine line, I agree. While we are to not live in flesh and not fight with other Christians, we are to defend the Word of God and we are to warn and admonish fellow believers when they start falling for and teaching false doctrines. There are repeated examples of Paul doing this very thing. He perhaps was more tactful than me, I admit I need to work on my delivery sometimes. But I am also reminded at the outrage Christ showed for the money changers and Peter held no punches when he wrote this, which is totally on point here. I at least did not call anyone "untaught or unstable."

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Which shows truth, that the war is still between flesh self and the Spirit of God, quite clear from Peter there thanks.

notice any twisting any is from where Flesh or God? Still need to be born again in the Spirit were only God today can be worshipped period
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say this because you don't understand how Satan is planning to use his Rapture lie. If you did, you would be crying from the rooftops trying to warn people as I am trying to do. It is one thing to have an honest disagreement over an eschatology position, as you call it, but it is quite another thing if one position is NOT based on the Bible and rather has taken the Word of God and twisted it into a totally different meaning. The consequences will be the slaughter of untold millions of Christians. Not only will they lose status in heaven, they will be gone from earth at a time when they are needed most to oppose the A/C. I realize few people see this truth but that doesn't excuse people from rewriting scripture which is exactly what the Pre-Trib Rapture theory does.

Look at the theory. It teaches the following, none of which can be found in the Bible:

A whole additional return (clouds only) of our Lord BEFORE the second coming (considering we are told he would come in the clouds. I think scripture proof rejects your personal opinion.)
This return being BEFORE the Tribulation (nothing says he will not. so your opinion again is not founded)
A taking of the entire church to heaven (more than just the church, all who have been saved, they are seen praising Christ before he opens the first seal. so again scripture trumps your opinion)
The demonetization of all Tribulation era saints, including the 144K, saying they weren't worthy (if they were saved before it happened, they would not be there, they would have went up with the rest of God people. Here you are just attacking something instead of getting to the truth.)
That the church is the Bride of Christ, totally dismissing God's chosen people Israel, when it is the church grafted in with them and they were the original bride, See Hosea 2:16-19. (nope. The church includes all Israel, saved or unsaved, so it is not rejecting israel)

try doing some study before you make judgments on things you do not understand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So EG all in all is the school master not needed anymore? For those that need Christ?

what does this have to do with my post? We say it is the schoolmaster, They say we reject the law. It can't be both ways

Did Paul bring the Corinthians back under the school master in 1 Cor. Who were taking God's grace for granted and using it for an occasion for their own flesh selfish desires? And finally they saw through to the purpose of being forgiven as in being given new life in the Spirit of God by them having a GODLY repentance in place of the worldly one they had
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Being under the Law led them to Godly repentance knowing they needed God for life, that in their flesh they were dead to life eternal

They knew they were sinning. Thats not the point. The point is DOING works of the law. Not using it to be the schoolmaster.

If you think this is all certain people are saying, your not listening very well.

 

[just-me]

Mark 2:22 (CJB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And no one puts new wine in old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the skins will be ruined. Rather, new wine is for freshly prepared wineskins.”

With the making of wine, there is a fermentation process that causes expansion. Old wineskins have already expanded in the making of wine, plus they are old and have become formed and somewhat brittle. They cannot be used for making new wine. Mark 2:22 focuses on two things, the old and new wine, and the old and new skins. What do they represent? Which one represents the Old, and New Covenant, the wine or the skins? So I asked myself the simple question, what contains the wine that has becomes old? So I started to concentrate on what was still good. It’s the wine of course.

Song of Songs 7:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]The mandrakes give a smell, and at our gates are all manner of pleasant fruits, new and old, which I have laid up for thee, O my beloved.

Matthew 13:52 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

So the Old and New wine are not the covenant, of the agreement, it has to be the skins that represent the Old and New Covenants. According to scripture, the wine, both old and new are still ingestible, and good for consumption. What is it that I am free to consume?

I am given Spiritual food without having to pay for it. (Isaiah 55:1)
I have information to know of Righteous judgments that we cannot escape. (Psalm 60:3)
And by the will of God, I will be given continuous new blessings. (Isaiah 65:8)
These are all promises contained in the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:13 (CJB)
13 By using the term, "new," he has made the first covenant "old"; and something being made old, something in the process of aging, is on its way to vanishing altogether.

The answer is really quite simple. Drink the wine of the Old Covenant that is still good before you throw away the wineskins. It is such a waste for God to have made an agreement with the Israelites, and blame His Words as the cause of its failure. It isn’t the wine that is no good after it gets old, it’s the wineskin that can’t be used anymore.

I looked up on the internet about this principle of making wine, and this is what I found.
Fermented and unfermented wine in the Bible: Bible Study Discussions with Gary Panell

Quote: “A new wineskin is strong, stretchable and will contain the fermenting wine, allowing containment so the pressure can be let out when the wineskin owner realizes it needs to be out-gassed. An old wine skin will not allow for this. It will crack and the wine will be lost. Another beautiful analogy. Jesus' new covenant can't be contained by the old covenant.”

I find a flaw in the last sentence that leads to misdirection when most people minister about the covenants. Look closely at what this person says in the last sentence of this quote. He is actually saying that the old wineskin can’t contain a new wineskin, and there is no mention of the wine anymore. With this analogy, all the wine is gone, both the old and the new. All that you have left is an empty container.

 

[just-me]

Isaiah 6:9-10 (BBE)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said, Go, and say to this people, You will go on hearing, but learning nothing; you will go on seeing, but without getting wiser.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Make the hearts of this people fat, and let their ears be stopped, and their eyes shut; for fear that they may see with their eyes, and be hearing with their ears, and their heart may become wise, and they may be turned to me and made well.

Isaiah 6:9-10 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


This is the condition of the heart after years of being taught that the Old Testament is past. I have even heard it said, by some, that the New Testament must be used so we can understand the Old Testament. Talk about turning things upside down.

Mark 4:10-20 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:[SUP]12 [/SUP]That seeing they may see, andnot perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

[SUP]14 [/SUP]The sower soweth the word.

[SUP]15[/SUP]And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
[SUP]1[/SUP][SUP]6 [/SUP]And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
[SUP]1[/SUP][SUP]7 [/SUP]And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
[SUP]19[/SUP]And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Obviously, the ground is the heart condition according to Luke 8:15. If we refuse to obey this commandment, and its implications defined in His law that surround this commandment, we have a hardened heart that rejects all Spiritual truth, or a stony heart that is unable to endure, or a heart that is more concerned about the values of the world rather than the values written the Word of God.


This is in God's Law in the book of Deuteronomy. If you neglect it, fight against it, and it causes contentious actions deep inside you, you are contributing, and part of the "falling away."
Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 6:5 (BBE)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord your God is to be loved with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Granted, good ground is agitated by a plow, and made fertile by manure. Expect, and accept the agitations and what smells to be garbage and dung. Don’t go hunting for it, for it will find you.

Romans 8:28 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Trusting in God through these trials will make your heart fertile enough to receive the truth, and bring forth good fruit. Remember, hope that is seen isn’t hope, and we are saved by hope.

Romans 8:24-25 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Trust in this (His hope) by your gift of faith. It works!

 

[PlainWord]

You say this because you don't understand how Satan is planning to use his Rapture lie. If you did, you would be crying from the rooftops trying to warn people as I am trying to do. It is one thing to have an honest disagreement over an eschatology position, as you call it, but it is quite another thing if one position is NOT based on the Bible and rather has taken the Word of God and twisted it into a totally different meaning. The consequences will be the slaughter of untold millions of Christians. Not only will they lose status in heaven, they will be gone from earth at a time when they are needed most to oppose the A/C. I realize few people see this truth but that doesn't excuse people from rewriting scripture which is exactly what the Pre-Trib Rapture theory does.

Look at the theory. It teaches the following, none of which can be found in the Bible:

A whole additional return (clouds only) of our Lord BEFORE the second coming (considering we are told he would come in the clouds. I think scripture proof rejects your personal opinion.)
This return being BEFORE the Tribulation (nothing says he will not. so your opinion again is not founded)
A taking of the entire church to heaven (more than just the church, all who have been saved, they are seen praising Christ before he opens the first seal. so again scripture trumps your opinion)
The demonetization of all Tribulation era saints, including the 144K, saying they weren't worthy (if they were saved before it happened, they would not be there, they would have went up with the rest of God people. Here you are just attacking something instead of getting to the truth.)
That the church is the Bride of Christ, totally dismissing God's chosen people Israel, when it is the church grafted in with them and they were the original bride, See Hosea 2:16-19. (nope. The church includes all Israel, saved or unsaved, so it is not rejecting israel)

try doing some study before you make judgments on things you do not understand.

EG,

You are hopelessly lost (on this Rapture issue) and I have no more desire to engage in this discussion with you. You've been told the truth and shown the error of your doctrines. What you chose to believe is just that, your choice.

 

[just-me]

Post trib has 2,000 years behind it!!! Pre-Trib is a FAILED ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE. Post Trib can be totally explained, every bit of scripture is consistent with the Post Trib Teaching of Christ, Paul and John. Failure to understand something does not give license to alter the Word of God and put in new doctrines especially when those doctrines are completely contrary to the clear spoken Word of Christ, and especially when said doctrine will cause millions upon millions to be slain.

I will never apologize or be kind to theories that Satan is behind. I will, however, love my fellow Christian even when he's wrong and will attempt to be respectful of them but I will not respect their false doctrine nor do I believe Christ would respect their false doctrine which attempts to make void the very Word of God.

Very well spoken. The entire time I was reading what you wrote, this scripture went through my mind. It is about as plan as the nose on a persons face. they have to look in the mirror though, like James was talking about, seeing ourselves as we truly are. It really sticks out, and says the truth more clear that anything else I have ever red in the Bible concerning the so called "rapture," and its time sequence. From what I read in the Bible, Jesus comes back one time, not two times, and he doesn't take us to heaven, He comes to dwell on earth with His elect. I have no idea how some can deny it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.