THE CROSS

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Seems to me we are arguing in circles a wee bit......Holy vs. holy...........but that might be just me.

Our God is a Holy God..........He is Holy!

Jesus Christ is Holy...........and we are to strive to live Christ-like, and as Paul taught the Romans...


Romans 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 .) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

and what he taught in........

1st Timothy 2:1) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 .) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 .) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 .) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 .) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 .) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 .) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 .) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


God is Holy, Jesus is Holy, and certainly the Holy Spirit is Holy, and we, as believers, are to strive to live holy lives so that we may present ourselves as a "living sacrifice" to God.

Now, that being said, while the cross (in and of itself) is surely a symbolic representation of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, it is not to be worshiped. And that is not me speaking...........

Romans 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 .) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 .) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 .) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 .) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 .) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 .) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 .) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 .) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 .) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The word "holy" has several definitions........and when we read Scripture in the context of these various definitions, I believe we would all come to an agreement.......but, again, that may just be me.

God bless
 
The key word is strive. Strive is to battle. we battle the flesh daily sometimes we win sometimes we lose. But with faith placed in the work of the cross, we win the war. So many preachers preach things other than the cross. If you give your money with faith in that action, you might as well have bought a cheese burger. But, if your faith is in christ, that is a different story. The Holy Spirit, as it pertains to believers, can only move when faith is properly placed in the cross and nothing else.
 
For the serious bible student (not saying yall aint), If you read in Genesis about Jacob and how after he wrestled with God and God changed his name to Israel. I have to note that Jacob means liar, deceiver, supplanter and Israel means prince of God. Why then did the Holy Spirit keep calling him Jacob after He had changed his name. But later in the passage more and more called him Israel. Think on it.
 
Kerry look at these scripture on the same subject of sin and forgiveness and cleansing....

We all talk about the STRUGGLE of the flesh and the Sprit,and God talks about the ones that BEAT the flesh and do what the Sprit does not the fleshly lusts....

God refers to them as the ones that OVERCOMETH...They came over from flesh to spirit. They came over from sin to holy life, they came overfrom death to life EVERLASTING, they came over from darkness to light, theycame over from hate to love, they came over from SATAN to GOD! This you can read RIGHT THROUGH THE BIBLE...
Jacob came over from Jacob to Israel, Saul came over fromSaul to Paul, Abram to Abraham. Kerry should come over from Kerry to Christ.Chirist’s likeness is as holy, as powerful, as perfect, and as GODLY as Jesus Christ was.
Kerry there is no other place to be. In Christ ALL IS PERFECT, Outside Christ ALL IS LOST. There is only BLACK or WHITE, HOLY or FILTHY, Righteous or sin, God or Satan... THERE IS Nothing in between.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be myson.

But let patience have herperfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

As long as you need the cross you wantcleansing and holiness.... You have not overcome sin and you did not receivethe perfect work, that brings the inheritance of ALL THINGS....

 
Incarnation-Perfect Obedience-Death-Resurrection-Ascension-Present Intercession...all IN CHRIST...non separable.
 
Cobus, first of all I love you. I know that we will go round and round. It is a known fact in the christian society that South America is dominated by the sinless perfection doctrine. But You did not address my post about Paul.

Saul on the road to Damascus (he was going there to imprison christians or kill them one) saw a great light. He feel prostrate on the ground and said" who are you Lord". He didn't know who He was but, knew He was Lord. The Lord Said' I am Jesus". He could have said Jehovah or El Shaddai or El Roppa or Elohim. But he chose the name that Saul hated most. Then Paul said" Lord what shall I do". At that moment Saul was saved and a few days later filled with Holy Spirit. Then God changed his name to Paul.

Then Paul wrote. That which I will to do I do not and that which I will not to do that I do. Then , in Romans 7, said that he was captive. My friend thousands of christians are captive by sin. They hate what they do and try their best to stop what they do. but, they cannot, they are forced against their will to sin. Why? because Paul said when the law came I died. Because Paul could not keep law as much as he tried. Then He God gave Him the revelation of the cross and the meaning of the new covenant. The only way to successfully live for God is to place your faith in the work of the cross and The Holy Spirit will sanctify you by the means of the cross and nothing else. Slowly overtime your wants become Gods wants. Your desire becomes His desire. That is why He said He would give you the desire of your heart. Your heart desires a ferrari and a mansion on a hill or good health for you and your own. Paul gave himself to preach the Gospel and said that he was lightly afflicted for the cause. Lightly, He had no wife nor children, shipwrecked twice in the sea for days and nights and stoned and left for dead and then imprisoned. Lightly and He still leaned on the cross for his ability to live for God. That no man should boast, it is the work of the cross that justifies us, sanctifies us and saves us and nothing else.
 

Kerry I loveyou two, but I also had Paul as sinner down, but then the one or two places hedid portray himself as sinner, was he sinner? If we see what other things hesaid, it looks like Paul was pretty confused... The one moment he says he doesthings he does not want too (sin) and the things he does want to do (obey theFATIH) he does not do. And then the next moment he says, he will call even on aconscience before God. And that he is a PERFECT PERSON THAT RECIEVEDAPOSTLESHIP AND OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH... To such an extend that the people canbe HIS FOLLOWERS.... WOW, what happened to FOLLOW JESUS?


Kerry you have to make up your mind in a few moments from now..... And thiswill determine your doctrine....


Paul says...
For though Ibe free from all men, yet have I mademyself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

And here is how God did it through Paul.... NOTE THAT HE ISNOT PART OF THE SIN...

And
lest, when Icome again, my God will humbleme among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinnedalready, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication andlasciviousness which they have committed.

Now you have to make up your mind... WHEN PAUL WAS FILLEDWITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, was HE PERFECT OF NOT? FILLED WITH GOD’S SPIRIT!!!! This Spirit NEVER LEFT HIM OR NEVER WAS LESS ON ONE DAY TO ANOTHER,.... ONCE FILLED ALWAYS FILLED...
So how CAN GOD'S SPIRIT SIN?


One more thing I want you to notice that you might have missed... And this will assist you in your descision on the doctrine you form...

Paul answered WHO ART THOU LORD.... He did know who it was... The pricks Paul KICKED against was the EXACT SAME VOICE THAT REPROOFED SAUL OF HIS SIN... Let me show you wit hscripture what the pricks are Paul kicked against...

The lord said that the HOLY SPIRIT that He will send will REPROOF THE WORLD OF SIN,.,. Paul was reproofed of the sin HE DOES.... So Paul KNEW THE VOICE THAT SAID... HEY PAUL THIS IS SIN....Now this VOICE was speaking to him from a bright light and said this.... SAUL SAUL WHY PERSECUTETH THOU ME???? Look the voice did not sau why do you persecute my people, he said Paul was persecuting HIM (ME)

If you grasp this Truth, your whole doctrine will be getting ito TRUTH.... Jesus is the ONLY PERSON in ALL GOD'S CHILDREN...

Get this.,,,, JESUS IS THE ONLY PERSON IN GOD'S CHILDREN... HE is ALL IN ALL HIS CHILDREN... AND HE IS FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST.... When Ananias laid hands on Paul, Paul was also FLOODED, FILLED, SURROUNDED and SATURATED with the HOLY GHOST OF GOD.... And on that moment GOD WAS THE MAN IN PAUL...

If PAUL SINNED AFTER THAT MOMENT we call GOD A SINNER... I know Paul NEVER KICKED AGAINST THE PRICKS AGAIN... PAUL WAS THE VESSEL (Paul's Flesh) AND GOD THE CARGO.....

 
Cobus my doctrine is the same as Paul's. I lean on the cross just as the founder of gentile churches and the one that God gave the meaning of the new covenant to. That meaning is the cross. I live for God by the means of the cross. My faith is in the cross. The Holy Spirit can legally work through by the means of the cross. I am saved by the cross. I am delivered by the means of the cross. I need the cross. A perfect person has no need of the cross because they are perfect. Paul needed the cross and so do I. Read the word and teach yourself with guidance of the Holy Spirit and not what a man has taught you.

I know round and round. Like a merry go round. You are not sinless. the cross is your only hope and mine as well. How many preachers have you seen fall. I have seen many, some make it back and some don't. The ones that do lean on the everlasting arms and that is the cross.
 
Kerry I loveyou two, but I also had Paul as sinner down, but then the one or two places hedid portray himself as sinner, was he sinner? If we see what other things hesaid, it looks like Paul was pretty confused... The one moment he says he doesthings he does not want too (sin) and the things he does want to do (obey theFATIH) he does not do. And then the next moment he says, he will call even on aconscience before God. And that he is a PERFECT PERSON THAT RECIEVEDAPOSTLESHIP AND OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH... To such an extend that the people canbe HIS FOLLOWERS.... WOW, what happened to FOLLOW JESUS?


Kerry you have to make up your mind in a few moments from now..... And thiswill determine your doctrine....


Paul says...
For though Ibe free from all men, yet have I mademyself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

And here is how God did it through Paul.... NOTE THAT HE ISNOT PART OF THE SIN...

And
lest, when Icome again, my God will humbleme among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinnedalready, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication andlasciviousness which they have committed.

Now you have to make up your mind... WHEN PAUL WAS FILLEDWITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, was HE PERFECT OF NOT? FILLED WITH GOD’S SPIRIT!!!! This Spirit NEVER LEFT HIM OR NEVER WAS LESS ON ONE DAY TO ANOTHER,.... ONCE FILLED ALWAYS FILLED...
So how CAN GOD'S SPIRIT SIN?


One more thing I want you to notice that you might have missed... And this will assist you in your descision on the doctrine you form...

Paul answered WHO ART THOU LORD.... He did know who it was... The pricks Paul KICKED against was the EXACT SAME VOICE THAT REPROOFED SAUL OF HIS SIN... Let me show you wit hscripture what the pricks are Paul kicked against...

The lord said that the HOLY SPIRIT that He will send will REPROOF THE WORLD OF SIN,.,. Paul was reproofed of the sin HE DOES.... So Paul KNEW THE VOICE THAT SAID... HEY PAUL THIS IS SIN....Now this VOICE was speaking to him from a bright light and said this.... SAUL SAUL WHY PERSECUTETH THOU ME???? Look the voice did not sau why do you persecute my people, he said Paul was persecuting HIM (ME)

If you grasp this Truth, your whole doctrine will be getting ito TRUTH.... Jesus is the ONLY PERSON in ALL GOD'S CHILDREN...

Get this.,,,, JESUS IS THE ONLY PERSON IN GOD'S CHILDREN... HE is ALL IN ALL HIS CHILDREN... AND HE IS FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST.... When Ananias laid hands on Paul, Paul was also FLOODED, FILLED, SURROUNDED and SATURATED with the HOLY GHOST OF GOD.... And on that moment GOD WAS THE MAN IN PAUL...

If PAUL SINNED AFTER THAT MOMENT we call GOD A SINNER... I know Paul NEVER KICKED AGAINST THE PRICKS AGAIN... PAUL WAS THE VESSEL (Paul's Flesh) AND GOD THE CARGO.....

this sounds great, but none of this is what the is in the Bible.
Paul says that he did sin, even when he knew not to. This is speaking about after his conversion.
Your doctrine on how the Holy Spirit works, is flawed.
 
this sounds great, but none of this is what the is in the Bible.
Paul says that he did sin, even when he knew not to. This is speaking about after his conversion.
Your doctrine on how the Holy Spirit works, is flawed.

Show me how the Holy Spirit works outside the parameters of the cross as it pertains to individuals. Yes the Holy Spirit works on nations to bring about Gods word as He did Israel. But not the the christian.
 
if we are sinless once filled with the Spirit, can we ever become unfilled?
If we can't become unfilled with the Spirit, then why would we need to strive and persevere? the Spirit does that for us.
this is false doctrine mr cobus, and leads to insecurity in faith.
 
You asked if we can be unfilled... God says NO After the Spirit is given you you are LIKE HIM ON THIS EARTH...

Look how SOLID God saves....
1 John3 : 9... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And how righteous are these saved people.... Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Is this FOREVER from the moment GOD GIVES YOU THAT SEED, CAN WE FALL BACK TO SIN... AFTER GOD IMPLANTED HIS SEED IN US?....

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

This looks like there is a DEFINATE two groups of people on this here earth... One group CANNOT sin, and the OTHER NEVER STOPS SINNING....

If only God will say that some place in the Bible.... Oh wait HE DOES... Thousands of places God says... THEY and YOU. THEM and US. The WORLD and the KINGDOM CHILDREN... The WORLD and THEM THOU HAST GIVEN ME...

And then this one....

1 JOhn3... Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

And/// He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
 
God will save whom he pleaseth Jesus at the cross defeated sin that had a hold on us through adam entered sin but through jesus entered life that all that come to him may be saved no matter who the offender or the offended that he offers eternal life on whom shall take refuge in him
 
sin is sin unless one repents there is death

And so TRUE... Without repentance and TAKING AWAY SIN, there is only DEATH... It is so bag Jesus says,,,, YOU SHALL DIE IN YOU SIN....

But look at the OPPOSITE.... For those that DIED IN CHRIST.... WOW! There are two place to DIE.... If on is on sin, and the OTHER is IN CHRIST... If I die in CHRIST... NOT SIN... I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE... why? BECAUSE I AM IN CHRIST AND HE IS ETERNAL LIFE...

If we study the Bible, we see the OLD MAN OF SIN I DIED OFF, by REPENTING AND CONFESSING, God will FORGIVE, and HE WILL NOT ONLY FORGIVE, but ALSO CLEANSE ME FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS,,, and HE WILL GIVE ME A NEW HEART IN THE PLACE OF THE ONE THAT SINNED... the STONY heart can ONLY SIN... but the HEART GOD GIVEN ME CANNOT SIN.. the FLESH HEART.. and to make sure that this fleh heart doe not get currupted HE COVERS MY HEART SOUL and BODY with HIS HOLY SPIRIT, NOT only covers , but sturate and surround it with HOLY GHOST...


Look what a finished SAVED PERSON LOOKS LIKE.... Only God is in him (PAul said he died with Christ and only JEsus lives in him) Eph 4 says God the Father is above, (All around) In (only HIm in us) and Through (that is ALL THE WAY IN ABOVE AND THROUGH) all who are HS CHILDREN...


Does that look like a SPIRIT BAPTISM for you... and this BAPTISM LASTS FOREVER.... FOREVER!!! that is why the Spirit that quickeneth, gives EVERLASTING LIFE... When we die IN CHRIST, we have ETERNAL LIFE.... What an AWESOME GOD WE SERVE.. The JOY of that life is... GOD GIVES US A LIFE THAT PLEASES HIM FOR ETERNITY... WOW, now who cannot dif this peace? Imagine to REST IN CHRIST, and HE LIVES FOR YOU.... WOW!!!
 
this sounds great, but none of this is what the is in the Bible.
Paul says that he did sin, even when he knew not to. This is speaking about after his conversion.
Your doctrine on how the Holy Spirit works, is flawed.


My friend let us take it point by point, start at the top of my post, and tell me whot point I made is not in the Bible, and I will post the Scripture to let GOD WITNESS WITH ME THAT I AM IN TRUTH... That is the only way we can go foreward.

Let me tell you how the Bible teach how the Spirit works.... THe Holy Spirit LEADS before He FILLS... and he only FILLS a person at the END of the "crucify the flesh". The Holy Spirit does not move into a FILTHY VESSEL... only moves into a vessel that are as pure as HE IS PURE...

Start asking me what point I made that you know not is in Scripture... I will prove EVERY point I make, without EDITING changing twisting or adding to God's Word. Every point I make is 100% Scriptural... I know, because I know the Truth, and the Truth HAS MADE ME FREE...
 
Tell that to Paul and not me. The thing I will to do I do not. The thing I will not to do that I do. Then He says Thank God for the cross. We cannot sufficiently appease God of our own actions. The just shall live by faith. Faith in what, Christ and Him crucified and nothing else.

not to nitpick, but what it actually says is
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
 
What the cross means to me... I honestly don't like to think about it. I could not bear watching Jesus suffer like that, and if my sin is why he had to do it all I can say is it's not fair. He shouldn't have to suffer because of me, it's not fair he had to die like that and it's not fair how he had to suffer. I honestly don't think my fragile heart could take it, seeing him suffer and die like that.
 
Tell that to Paul and not me. The thing I will to do I do not. The thing I will not to do that I do. Then He says Thank God for the cross. We cannot sufficiently appease God of our own actions. The just shall live by faith. Faith in what, Christ and Him crucified and nothing else.


You are missing much here my friend. The cross is ONLY the beginning. It is not everything, there is so much more.
First, you are confusing the cross with Jesus, as it is written;
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The cross in not mentioned, but Jesus Christ is.
What about the promises of God? What does having faith in the cross do for the person in need of healing and/or deliverance? I tell you, nothing. Absolutely nothing will happen for the one believing in the cross. But having faith in God and His promises/word, will, when one walks according to His word and not by sight.
I think you should to start looking at the promises of the one who saved you, rather than the thing that killed Him.
I understand that you are referring to the work that was done on the cross, but like I said in other posts, those who stay at the cross, will remain as babies. You will not grow. Going with the flow of the world, such as accepting sickness, will keep you in a baby state.
God has done far more than simply give you eternal life through Jesus Christ. Until you see that, you will not grow.
 
[h=3]1 Corinthians 1:17-19[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
[h=3][/h][SUP]18 [/SUP]For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[SUP][a][/SUP]