For my Dear Sisters in Christ

[Praus]

Eve believed God was a liar. She wanted to be God. She ate the fruit. Adam just ate the fruit. That is three sins for Eve and one for Adam. Who sinned more?

How did you arrive at the conclusion that "Adam just ate the fruit"?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Because the Bible says Adam was not decieved in the N.T. Eve was. Based on what satan told Eve (Adam was not there), Eve believed God was decieving her and keeping her from being like Him.

 

[haz]

.
I appreciate your input. At this time on my post I am raising one specific issue and I am sorry if that comes across feminist. My heart is for men to become ALL that God created them to be. Warriors, fully reflecting the glory of God, standing firm in their identity in Christ, knowing how to love a woman as Christ loves His church and for women to become ALL that God created them to be, which is very different from what many christian guys want them to be.

Whilst I acknowledge you are focusing on one specific issue, you are doing so in the context of societies badly damaged by the efforts of feminism over the past decades. The continual feminist mantra that women are innocent victims and men are evil perpetrators, is even implied in your posts. The feminist cry that it's all the man's fault and women are innocent victims, is a recognized propaganda tactic. The alleged perpetrator is then supposed to submit in some way and make reparations to the alleged victim.

You said below:

A warning that the original command to BOTH of them will now become so twisted with sin, men will want to dominate and rule over women.

Note here how your focus is on men being at fault and women being the innocent victims.

I would suggest it would have been more accurate to acknowledge that in this fallen world there is going to be a lot of twisting going on that affects all humanity regardless of gender.

If we want the truth we should turn to Christ, our teacher. Yet how many of us truly turn to Christ for understanding?
1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Remember what "mans" issue is? His focus is more on a woman and what she says rather than on God. And isn't that so true today? How guys will try and apply scripture to a woman's life with NO UNDERSTANDING at all? Guys do not know where to draw the line! They are driven to dominate and rule over her in anyway they possibly can, ignoring boundaries that are in place. "Wives "submit" to your husband gets turned into "Husbands MAKE your wives submit"...its NOTHING TO DO WITH A GUY.

Again we see your claim that it's all the man's fault, which is consistent with the feminist mantra.

Here in feminist dominated Australia I rarely see these domineering husbands that you constantly make issue with. Even our ex-prime minister Kevin Rudd (noted for his abusively domineering leadership style and egotism) was also noted for being almost a mouse when at home with his domineering wife.

I see that there are too many worldly influences (feminism, etc) amongst Christians that is derailing our efforts to receive spiritual understanding.

We, the church, submit to Christ, the husband (Eph 5).
Let this be our example and submit one to another.

 

[p_rehbein]

Because the Bible says Adam was not decieved in the N.T. Eve was. Based on what satan told Eve (Adam was not there), Eve believed God was decieving her and keeping her from being like Him.

yes, and so God charged WHO with the sin of disobedience? Who does Scripture say that "sin came into the world by?"

hmmmm.......

 

[p_rehbein]

Eve believed God was a liar. She wanted to be God. She ate the fruit. Adam just ate the fruit. That is three sins for Eve and one for Adam. Who sinned more?

How did you conclude that Eve "believed God a liar?" Seems to me she was "deceived" into eating the fruit......don't remember her making a statement about God being a liar........

If you disagree with women in Ministry or such, just say so............don't make things up.......and be sure the true Scriptures you use are being interpreted correctly.........plueeZze.......it's OK to disagree with women in Ministry.......AND it's ok to agree with women in Ministry.............

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Because the Bible says Adam was not decieved in the N.T. Eve was. Based on what satan told Eve (Adam was not there), Eve believed God was decieving her and keeping her from being like Him.

My understanding of the passage (at least, what I've been taught - I can't read Hebrew) is that it implies Adam was with Eve, whilst she was being tempted - but he said nothing. So it's a similar situation to what we have today. Women don't want to listen to their husbands, who know what is right. Men know what is right, but often don't say anything when they see someone sinning, or being tempted, and worse, with even go along with sin rather than opposing it.

 

[p_rehbein]

We are all called to ministry (service). However, some offices in ministry are inappropriate for women.

Often when we refer to a preacher, we are referring to the office of an elder (in the capacity of a pastor/teacher). In such a case, it is inappropriate for a woman, as women should not be elders.

If you are referring to a preacher as an evangelist, then we are all called to share the good news of our salvation. In this case, it is not only appropriate for a woman to be a preacher/evangelist, it is her duty. Such an evangelist need have no position of authority within the Church. Certainly, for a woman, she should never be a church elder.

Sadly you accept this traditional teaching.......now, that's ok, but it is sad. I am always saddened when I read comments from anyone who hold to this traditional teaching of men......those who don't understand Paul's writing styles.......for if they did, I believe they would change their minds.......

In any event, as I stated earlier........Jesus did not condemn/criticize those who believed one way or the other.........so I will not either, but it does make me sad. And, even in the role of "evangelist," you are categorizing/limiting women's role in THAT ministry........you say.......

Such an evangelist need have no position of authority within the Church.


I submit that an Evangelist has even more authority in the Church than a Pastor.......real understanding of what an Evangelist does shows this to be true. IF Evangelists DON'T PREACH the Gospel, what do they do? Evangelists not only preach the Gospel, they TEACH/INSTRUCT both men and women in the ways of the Gospel. They LEAD souls to Christ. They baptize new believers, and much more........they go INTO THE WORLD......Pastors tend to stick close to home.

Preacher and elder are not one in the same.............I am an elder of my congregation, I am NOT the Preacher/Pastor. How in the world did you ever come to the conclusion that women are not/should not be elders? Are you saying that women don't age like men? Do they not grow in years? Do they not grow in their walk with Christ? If they do, then by definition, they are elders of the Church.......Unless you are trying to equate elder with deacon.......there is noting inappropriate about a woman being an elder........that is personal bias on your part...........

Yes, we are all called to spread the Good News, but witnessing to unsaved family and friends and neighbors does not qualify us as Evangelists. Maybe you should study up on what an Evangelist is/does...........that might help.

BTW, can you tell me/list for me the Denominations that Ordain women as Evangelists? You said you were not aware of any denominations who objected to women being Evangelist, so I'm curious as to which do Ordain women as such.
they can be non-denominational as well...........such as the CoC who state that they are non-demoninational.......or, even my church.......oh, no, wait!

We DO Ordain women as Evangelists, and as Preachers too!.............so, there's ONE!

 

[p_rehbein]

My understanding of the passage (at least, what I've been taught - I can't read Hebrew) is that it implies Adam was with Eve, whilst she was being tempted - but he said nothing. So it's a similar situation to what we have today. Women don't want to listen to their husbands, who know what is right. Men know what is right, but often don't say anything when they see someone sinning, or being tempted, and worse, with even go along with sin rather than opposing it.

If you are having trouble with Genesis, maybe you should study:

Romans 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 .) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 .) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

(edited to add)

I see by your profile that you are married......so I am compelled to ask: Does your wife own or read a Bible at any time? If so, then are you NOT in disobedience to Scripture...............???

 

[p_rehbein]

Additionalinformation to consider about women in Ministry.

Acts 18:24) And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 .) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 .) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them,and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 .) And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28 .) For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

2[SUP]nd[/SUP]Timothy 19) Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Timothy 5:1) Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
2 .) The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
3 .) Honour widows that are widows indeed.

1[SUP]st[/SUP]Corinthians 16:19) The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.


I have highlighted in red the parts of these that people should ponder on............

God bless

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

I submit that an Evangelist has even more authority in the Church than a Pastor.......real understanding of what an Evangelist does shows this to be true. IF Evangelists DON'T PREACH the Gospel, what do they do? Evangelists not only preach the Gospel, they TEACH/INSTRUCT both men and women in the ways of the Gospel. They LEAD souls to Christ. They baptize new believers, and much more........they go INTO THE WORLD......

We are all called to be evangelists. Can you show me the scripture where evangelists have more authority in the Church than an elder (i.e. bishop)?

Pastors tend to stick close to home.

Not all of them do.

Preacher and elder are not one in the same.............I am an elder of my congregation,

I think I already clarified my position on the definition of preacher. Pastor/teachers who preach before the congregation are typically elders.

I am NOT the Preacher/Pastor. How in the world did you ever come to the conclusion that women are not/should not be elders? Are you saying that women don't age like men? Do they not grow in years? Do they not grow in their walk with Christ? If they do, then by definition, they are elders of the Church.......Unless you are trying to equate elder with deacon.......there is noting inappropriate about a woman being an elder........that is personal bias on your part...........

You are using equivocation. I say women should not be in the position of elder in the church. I am not saying women do not age.

1 Timothy 3: 1 - 7 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Yes, we are all called to spread the Good News, but witnessing to unsaved family and friends and neighbors does not qualify us as Evangelists. Maybe you should study up on what an Evangelist is/does...........that might help.

Why don't you point me to a scripture that justifies your position? I don't believe there is one.

BTW, can you tell me/list for me the Denominations that Ordain women as Evangelists? You said you were not aware of any denominations who objected to women being Evangelist, so I'm curious as to which do Ordain women as such.
they can be non-denominational as well...........such as the CoC who state that they are non-demoninational.......or, even my church.......oh, no, wait!

Evangelists don't need to be ordained. Once we are baptised, evangelism becomes our duty.

We DO Ordain women as Evangelists, and as Preachers too!.............so, there's ONE!

And some states give sodomites marriage certificates. It doesn't make it right, nor even a marriage.

If you are having trouble with Genesis, maybe you should study:

Romans 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 .) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 .) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

(edited to add)

I see by your profile that you are married......so I am compelled to ask: Does your wife own or read a Bible at any time? If so, then are you NOT in disobedience to Scripture...............???

How so? Which scripture says women are not permitted to own or read bibles?

I note that you had a lot to say in your recent post, but I also note you didn't tend to back up these beliefs with scripture. If you want to convince me of something, you will need to convince me that this is what God says (through scripture).

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Equality is tricky when you make equal things that are very different from each other. Should equality mean both are treated exactly the same when they are not exactly the same? Does a man = a woman or visa versa? Treating both sexes the same creates gender confusion. Women also usually do not have a problem telling men what to do even though they are against men telling them what to do. Is that equality? Equality is just their smoke screen to really take authority and make you submit. James Dobson pointed out in one of his books that our culture allows women to degrade men in a way that men are not allowed to treat women. For example a tv show preview I saw about witches showed a large group of female witches had killed a man ceremoniously and the witches are the main characters or protaganist. What if the witches were men and they had tortured a woman for sport? Would they air the show?

 

[Praus]

Because the Bible says Adam was not decieved in the N.T. Eve was. Based on what satan told Eve (Adam was not there), Eve believed God was decieving her and keeping her from being like Him.

Is "Adam was not there" your interpretation or is it from E.G. White's Patriarchs and Prophets?

 

[Misty77]

Because the Bible says Adam was not decieved in the N.T. Eve was. Based on what satan told Eve (Adam was not there), Eve believed God was decieving her and keeping her from being like Him.

It says, "with her" which means, "with her."

2 Peter 3:16b "There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

 

[psychomom]

girl power, eh?

twofeet, you mention you're not married...have you been? do you have children?
'cause I have to say the pain of childbirth just ain't that bad, at least it was manageable for me, times six.
each contraction brings you one closer to meeting your baby...and that baby is such a gift, worth all the discomfort. ♥
(I know you don't dispute that...just sayin'.)

I've spent my whole adult life raising and homeschooling our kiddos.
and the days my husband asked me about my spiritual life in the midst of all that busyness
were some of the best. "Do you have enough time to spend with the Lord? How can I facilitate that for you...what can I do around the house and with the kids to make that happen?" were beautiful words to me.
Not that my husband wasn't already sharing the workload of the house with me; he is wonderful.

Because he loves me (Biblically), it's easy to trust and respect him.
Because I trust and respect him, it's easy to submit to him.
Anything he requires of me is for my own good, without fail.
And we always discuss things together, and he always seriously entertains my views.
If after that we (rarely) disagree, we do things his way, and I have found that to be a joy and a blessing.

I don't know any Christian husbands who use the Word of God unlawfully and are unloving tyrants.
I'm sorry that such may exist, but I don't believe that makes the command to submit to my husband less valid.

hope that's not off piste?

 

[Yahshua]

I'm not minimizing childbirth. But my mom's in the medical field (works in an ER) and she once said many doctors agree that a man passing a kidney stone is quite possibly worse than childbirth because that pathway wasn't created to expand...and there's no bundle of joy afterwards that makes it worthwhile to go through. Of course, I never want to find out so I drink lots of water.

 

[twofeet]

Eve believed God was a liar. She wanted to be God. She ate the fruit. Adam just ate the fruit. That is three sins for Eve and one for Adam. Who sinned more?

Adam was told by God not to eat the fruit Eve wasnt even made, it was a direct command to him
Adam named all the animals and was put in charge of the garden...why did he let the serpent in, why wasnt he tending the garden properly?
Adam was right next to Eve watching the whole thing kicking off but never said a word..passive.

He

 

[twofeet]

Because the Bible says Adam was not decieved in the N.T. Eve was. Based on what satan told Eve (Adam was not there), Eve believed God was decieving her and keeping her from being like Him.

I have already explained the difference between DELIBERATE sin and deception. Adam was there, the bible says he was, "she gave some to Adam who was with her"

This whole thread has turned into what it always does. And this attitude is EXACTLY why God warned Eve that men will rule over them as the sin distorts the first command of having dominion over the plants and the animals. Men will look for EVERY way possible and EVERY scripture possible to back up that sinful attitude of control. It is a mindset, a stronghold, built by years of MEN teaching MEN and women being told to be quiet.

in 30 years of walking with the Lord I have seen this attitude in all shapes and forms.Sometimes its very obvious, other times very subtle. I remember years ago I was invited to visit a new discipleship course center in Spain. One evening, sharing a meal with the students in a beautiful garden overlooking the Mediterranean Sea a lady opposite her friend had a very small crumb like size piece of food hit her from her friend as they were joking around. The lady, the only one married at the course, picked it up and threw it back at her friend, both in good spirits and laughing. All the other students were in high spirits laughing a joking around the table as we ate...except her husband that was sitting next to her. He rebuked her with a look of disdain in his face and she came to "heel" like a trained dog. All joy washed from her face and I could see she suddenly felt excluded from the fun going on around her.

I watched as they subtle chains of bondage wrapped around her spirit, stopping her being the fun person Im sure that guy fell in love with. Imagine years of that for a woman? Each chain chipping away at her very personality until in years to come she wont recognize herself in "submission" to her husband and the feeling of only being free to be herself when she is not with him will start eating away at her.

Being a SPIRITUAL head is about protecting a woman so she can open her heart and be free! He is there to protect her from the fiery darts of the enemy when harsh words are spoken to her, bring freedom and release when OTHERS try and put her in bondage...NOT be the slave master himself!

I thank God that I have NEVER been in a relationship where a guy has used the bible to control me and that God has given me 30 years of AMAZING examples of GODLY men who walk in this understanding of freedom.

This thread, as you can see is to "my Dear Sisters in Christ"...it is not speaking to guys, but true to form guys will make it their business because they still do not understand what God said to Adam in the garden. You will also notice I actually INVITED men to comment OR ATTACK...why?...because I see their attitude. I did not go into this thread blindly. I was fully aware that men would come on this thread and do EXACTLY what they have done for centuries, USE scripture to feed a controlling attitude towards women.There was no need for me to give examples of this attitude, I knew the examples would be eager to share all by themselves.

 

[Cobus]

It's more important whether you pray with your wife, then who wears a hat.

So you really think that when Scriptures and experience match, and they produce fruit, that is twisting; but when a system that has alienated half the world from Jesus, reads a translation, and acts on what they think they are reading, they are doing the truth?

I repeat. Women and men are equal in ministry. The original languages equate women with wives, and the submission applies only in that role, not in ministry. When allowed to minister, women are equally as successful as men at ALL levels, including pastor, bishop, apostle, and any others. The fruit of the submissive church is that now in the formerly Christian US, only 16% are still in church, and in formerly Christian Europe less than 2% in many countries. God will not change His mind no matter what either of us thinks, but we can change our future and our fruit by getting it right.

KENISYES. Send me one of your sermons and let me TEST the fruit with the Word of God. Prefirable one of you wifes... You still have my email.. record it with a cllphone and send as mp3 or something... PLEASEE!!!

 

[twofeet]

girl power, eh?

twofeet, you mention you're not married...have you been? do you have children?
'cause I have to say the pain of childbirth just ain't that bad, at least it was manageable for me, times six.
each contraction brings you one closer to meeting your baby...and that baby is such a gift, worth all the discomfort. ♥
(I know you don't dispute that...just sayin'.)

I've spent my whole adult life raising and homeschooling our kiddos.
and the days my husband asked me about my spiritual life in the midst of all that busyness
were some of the best. "Do you have enough time to spend with the Lord? How can I facilitate that for you...what can I do around the house and with the kids to make that happen?" were beautiful words to me.
Not that my husband wasn't already sharing the workload of the house with me; he is wonderful.

Because he loves me (Biblically), it's easy to trust and respect him.
Because I trust and respect him, it's easy to submit to him.
Anything he requires of me is for my own good, without fail.
And we always discuss things together, and he always seriously entertains my views.
If after that we (rarely) disagree, we do things his way, and I have found that to be a joy and a blessing.

I don't know any Christian husbands who use the Word of God unlawfully and are unloving tyrants.
I'm sorry that such may exist, but I don't believe that makes the command to submit to my husband less valid.

hope that's not off piste?

I am SO pleased to hear your testimony and experience on this psychomom.You sound like you have a great husband there who knows how to walk in the love of God and be that example of love to you...what a blessing!

In answer to your questions, yes I have 3 children (although now 22, 19 and 17 I dont really class them as kids anymore although debatable with their behaviour at times lol). I nearly died in childbirth with my first and had 3 operations after but this drove me closer to God so my next one, through much prayer was a pretty radical experience to say the least. I was married to their dad for 10 years but he was not a christian so I have not had to experience myself the things I am talking about here. Which I think its good from the point of view I am not speaking from bitter experience. I have experience violence from guys in the past , guys who like to control with their fists but never used scripture for their basis....maybe if they had actually read a bible God could have healed them ....or maybe it would have enforced their behavior who knows!

I have been blessed to see GREAT examples of Christian husbands but have also witnessed and minister to those who have been on the receiving end of not so good ones.

I love how in your words you say you trust your husband because he loves you biblically. Isnt that the basis of this whole thing? When you are around people you KNOW will not control, manipulate, hurt you in anyway then you trust them, trust their judgement, trust their leading...it is beautiful. Isnt that the way it is with the Lord too? As my friends in CC will tell you, I have had an amazing year. The Lord told me to sell my home I have been in for 27 years and quit my job I have been in for 17 years and move to Welsh Coast and because I TRUST the Lord because I KNOW He loves me and will never hurt me I did as He asked. As I worked in a school I broke up on the 19th July for the 6 weeks holiday. That week I had a couple interested in buying my home so I had 6 weeks holiday to pack! In the UK, unless the contracts exchange there is always that chance the couple could pull out, it is not legally binding until that happens. On the 3rd August I emailed my boss handing in my mnths notice as I was due back on the 3rd Sept. By the 3rd of Sept the contracts had still not signed but I still trusted the Lord because I KNEW He would not let me down. By the 6th of September, now without a job, I still had not found a house to move into and my prayers were like " Lord, I know you wont let me down but do we REALLY have to wait till the last minute???". On the 7th of Sept I found a house, on the 12th Sept contracts exchanged and the 13th I moved out! He has now set my feet in a very spacious place as He promised he would and I spend my days rejoicing and dancing through my new home.

I know what submission is, I know what trust is....and I know what love is. I know the example set before me given by God himself. And when I see guys walk in that same Love, its an absolute blessing!

 

[Praus]

This whole thread has turned into what it always does.

I'm part of that, I'm sorry.

Men will look for EVERY way possible and EVERY scripture possible to back up that sinful attitude of control. It is a mindset, a stronghold, built by years of MEN teaching MEN and women being told to be quiet.

My best Bible teacher by far is one Skype buddy--she's a woman from Pakistan who's more than 10 years younger than me. I've learned so much from her...