What Laws are still valid to christians

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

‘And it will be in the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. Acts 2:17

Again, that is phraseology which to Israel means all the people of God throughout the world, and not just those in Israel.

In modern usage, it means everyone without exclusion, but in ancient Israel it meant all God's people throughout the world, and not limited just to those in Israel.

I'm afraid I know folks who haven't been within miles of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

The holy spirit witnesses with our spirit. That is how we know truth. I knew the voice of GOD long before I was saved. The voice of GOD is the holy spirit. Everyone hears it to some degree or another, but obviously not all obey it.

Paul is speaking to Christian there, in whom the Holy Spirit dwells.

The Holy Spirit does not dwell in all flesh.

 

[Elin]

Elin? You see for every answer you give another question comes in a different manner without accepting your answer?, and on n on it will go, there's just no bridging the gap.

Well, I'm assuming it is based on a misunderstanding of Scripture, which discussion will help illuminate.

Good posts tho very clear,

Thanks, I appreciate your grasp of them.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

The office of High Priest according to Mosaic Law was about being a descendant of Aaron, and about performing specific functions only the High Priest was allowed to perform.
It wasn't about exaltation, or anything else.

Moses was not a descendant of Aaron, nor do we see him performing any of the functions of the office of High Priest in the OT.

So what is your Biblical basis for Moses being a "very" high priest?

Is that in Scripture anywhere?

Christ performed the function of the office of High Priest in offering himself as a sin sacrifice.
He was a greater High Priest than Aaron because the sacrifice he offered was once-for-all.

Scripture presents Christ as a greater Mediator than Moses, not a greater High Priest than Moses.

Getting back to the original point...

Elin said:
So a New Covenant was put into place, not because the priesthood was changed, for the priesthood did not mediate the covenant.

The old covenant and its law were changed because the priesthood changed. GOD's covenants and laws come through the priesthood. Moses was a priest; he mediated the old covenant. Christ is a priest; he mediated the new covenant. Because the priesthood changed, of necessity the covenant and law also changed.

For when the priesthood changes, of necessity there is a change of the law also. Hebrews 7:12​

Moses was a greater priest than any Levitical priest (except John the baptist) because he talked with GOD face to face. He could enter the holiest place whenever the need arose; the high priest could only do so once a year. So yes; Moses was a far greater priest than any high priest.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. Exodus 33:11

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? Numbers 12:6-8​

So my whole point is that covenant and law changed because the priesthood changed from the Levitical order to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[Elin]

Getting back to the original point...

The old covenant and its law were changed because the priesthood changed. GOD's covenants and laws come through the priesthood. Moses was a priest; he mediated the old covenant. Christ is a priest; he mediated the new covenant. Because the priesthood changed, of necessity the covenant and law also changed.

For when the priesthood changes, of necessity there is a change of the law also. Hebrews 7:12

Okay, I wasn't clear on that.

The Sinaitic Covenant was based on the Mosaic Law.
And the Mosiac Law was based on the Aaronic priesthood.
So when the priesthood changed, the law had to change, which meant the Covenant was made obsolete (Heb 8:13).

Moses was a greater priest than any Levitical priest (except John the baptist) because he talked with GOD face to face. He could enter the holiest place whenever the need arose; the high priest could only do so once a year. So yes; Moses was a far greater priest than any high priest.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. Exodus 33:11

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? Numbers 12:6-8

Neither of these speaks to Moses as priest.
And High Priest is about the functions of an office, not about closeness to God.

Yes, Moses was greater because he was the lawgiver and the mediator of the Sinaitic Covenant, as well as prophet, not because he was a priest.

So my whole point is that covenant and law changed because the priesthood changed from the Levitical order to the order of Melchizedek.

That is the plain statement of Heb 7:11-12.

And we are in agreement.

 

[JGIG]

Jgig? We're on earth have you been friend one off the most common sense threads in a myriad of posts bk and to in endless verse game? Thank god for your clarity? Wow at last another making it simple? Get prepared for a backlash of almost every point you talked about , bt I beg not another 164 pages and counting get ready for the ambush brother/sister / friend...

Nice to meet ya, Welshman - I've got some Welsh in my ancestry, too.

Yes - the Gospel is simple; it is easily clarified. When we have a grasp of who we are in Christ because of Who He is, falsehoods also become clear and tend to fall away.

Don't worry, backlash doesn't bother me. I've been contending in this arena since 2007 when the Hebrew Roots Movement crossed my path.

Just checking in for the first time today . . . let's see what's shakin' !

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[Welshman]

Jgig, I couldn't agree more I'm sure if you cross any of my posts I've tried my best to show the simplicity of Christ when as u say we understand we're we are in him rather than him in us although he most certai my in us we have our very being in him in his life in his story ? My point is that our Jewish brothers have contended with many even tho truth is clearly evident, then supposition ,misapplication, condemnation , accusation , and worse, now there must come a point when debate becomes futile, I'm afraid some god fearing people here have exhausted themselves trying to show truth humility and clarity but behold its not ended brotherly? But nice too meet you too friend my spirit sees truth always my own pastor said to me once your bible knowledge is greater than mine Kevin? I said no pastor bt without context and revelation from who's word we're focused on as nothing to do with knowledge bt I know heresy and supposition when I see it a good theological background helps we can't pit old wine in new wine skins both will be ruined.? Look forward to your contributions friend,....

 

[Hoffco]

Jesus has three offices,: Prophet. Priest and King. like Melchizedek. Moses was only a prophet and Aaron was the priest. Moses gave God's laws to the people and Aaron made sacrifices to God for the sins of the people. Heb.7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." Jesus is a prophet like Moses. a priest like Melchizedek, and a king like David; A Prophet to teach us , a Priest to forgive us and a King to rule us and our enemies. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[JGIG]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Yes, Christ is both the physical and spiritual reality, as the sacrifices were likewise both the physical reality of shed blood (death) and the spiritual reality of reconciliation with God through atonement for sin (Lev 17:12).

JGIG wrote: His Work is done; as the Perfect High Priest, He went into the Heavenly Tabernacle and SAT DOWN, something earthly priests were never permitted to do, as their were always more sins of the people that had to be dealt with - their work was never done.

It's probably better to stay with Scripture's statements here, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Heb 8:1, 10:12-13), rather than in the tabernacle, as head over everything for the Church, which is his body and the fullness of him (Eph 1:20-23--he has no others outside the Church), and
where he entered the heavenly tabernacle, not to be seated there, but to purify it with his blood (Heb 9:23), as the earthly tabernacle on the Day of Atonement was purified with blood of its uncleanness from dwelling in the midst of a sinful people (Lev 16:16; Nu 19:20).

The point is that He sat down - an act of REST, His Work done. The priesthood of the Old Covenant were not permitted to sit down, as their work was never done:

Hebrews 10:11-14
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.​

Yes, the word of God states that Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, not the administrator, as Moses was the mediator, not the administrator, of the Sinaitic Covenant.

Theses differences between mediator or administrator, seated in the tabernacle or at the right hand of God, or the union of physical shadows and spiritual reality may seem minute and minor, but in reality they are consequential and major.

The slightest deviation from the word of God in these matters inevitably progresses to a radical departure from the Biblical meaning of these matters.

Nothing that I wrote 'progresses to a radical departure from the Biblical meaning of these matters'. And I stipulated to the more appropriate word being 'mediator'. Not sure why this second post on the matter . . .

But none of these diminish my enjoyment of your post.

Thanks, I think . . .

My intention is only to help you stay on target and keep up the good work

No target, just resting in the Truths of the New Covenant .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Jgig, I couldn't agree more I'm sure if you cross any of my posts I've tried my best to show the simplicity of Christ when as u say we understand we're we are in him rather than him in us although he most certai my in us we have our very being in him in his life in his story ?

My point is that our Jewish brothers have contended with many even tho truth is clearly evident, then supposition ,misapplication, condemnation , accusation , and worse, now there must come a point when debate becomes futile,

I'm afraid some god fearing people here have exhausted themselves trying to show truth humility and clarity but behold its not ended brotherly? But nice too meet you too friend my spirit sees truth always my own pastor said to me once your bible knowledge is greater than mine Kevin? I said no pastor bt without context and revelation from who's word we're focused on as nothing to do with knowledge bt I know heresy and supposition when I see it a good theological background helps we can't pit old wine in new wine skins both will be ruined.?

Welshman, most (some estimate over 90%) of those in the HRM are Gentiles. Here's a brief overview from my research:

"Joyfully Growing In Grace (JGIG) engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

The term 'Messianic' is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of 'The Way'.

These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, 'But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.'

Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

To borrow from a Forest Gump quote, 'Law-keepers are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you’re gonna get!' The goal of JGIG is to be a resource to help those affected by the Torah pursuant movements to try and sort out what they’re dealing with."


​

You can do a search on Joyfully Growing In Grace and links will come right up so you can see the resources that are there.

JGIG is designed to help believers sort out what they're dealing with when the HRM crosses their path. And it's much more about contending for the simple Truths of the Gospel and building believers up in who they are in Christ than anything else .

Look forward to your contributions friend,....

I look forward to contributing. I don't know how often that will be, but I'll pop in from time to time and post as I feel led.

Blessings to you!

​

 

[Elin]

Jgig, I couldn't agree more I'm sure if you cross any of my posts I've tried my best to show the simplicity of Christ when as u say we understand we're we are in him rather than him in us although he most certai my in us we have our very being in him in his life in his story ? My point is that our Jewish brothers have contended with many even tho truth is clearly evident, then supposition ,misapplication, condemnation , accusation , and worse, now there must come a point when debate becomes futile, I'm afraid some god fearing people here have exhausted themselves trying to show truth humility and clarity but behold its not ended brotherly?

You do realize, right, that Christ is in us,

Jn 14:20, 23, 17:26; Col 1:27; Ro 8:10; 2Co 13:5; Gal 2:20; Eph 3:17.

 

[Welshman]

Read it all? Elin? The next line says although he certainly is in us?, though more to the point we have our existence in him? Please dnt just quote half of what I write bt the whole then the context then by all means comment?

 

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Thanks.

The point is that the physical shadows gave way to the spiritual Reality in Christ, Who is our Perfect Sacrifice, Mediator,
and permanent High Priest.

Yes, Christ is both the physical and spiritual reality, as the sacrifices were likewise both the physical reality of shed blood (death) and the spiritual reality of reconciliation with God through atonement for sin (Lev 17:12).

The point is that He sat down - an act of REST, His Work done. The priesthood of the Old Covenant were not permitted to sit down, as their work was never done:

Yes, he sat down because his work was finished, but he did not sit in the tabernacle.

Confusion in such details inevitably leads in time to wrong theology.

His Work is done; as the Perfect High Priest, He went into the Heavenly Tabernacle and SAT DOWN, something earthly priests were never permitted to do, as their were always more sins of the people that had to be dealt with - their work was never done.

It's probably better to stay with Scripture's statements here, where
Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Heb 8:1, 10:12-13), rather than in the tabernacle, as head over everything for
the Church, which is his body and the fullness of him (Eph 1:20-23--
therefore, Christ has no others outside the Church), and where
he entered the heavenly tabernacle, not to be seated there, but
to purify it with his blood (Heb 9:23), as the earthly tabernacle on the Day of Atonement was purified with blood of its uncleanness from dwelling in the midst of a sinful people (Lev 16:16; Nu 19:20).

So 'mediate' or 'administrate', and the better word there is 'mediate', the work is done, and mankind no longer relates to God on the basis of keeping Law, but on the basis of belief - faith in Christ.

Yes, the word of God states that Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, not the administrator, as Moses was the mediator, not the administrator, of the Sinaitic Covenant.

Theses differences between mediator or administrator, seated in the tabernacle or at the right hand of God, or the union of physical shadows and spiritual reality may seem minute and minor, but in reality they are consequential and major.

The slightest deviation from the word of God in these matters inevitably progresses to a radical departure from the Biblical meaning of these matters.

Nothing that I wrote 'progresses to a radical departure from the Biblical meaning of these matters'.

It usually isn't the one who presents misinformation that progresses to the radical departure.
It's usually others who then take the misinformation and apply it logically, which results in a radical departure from its Biblical meaning.

And I stipulated to the more appropriate word being 'mediator'. Not sure
why this second post on the matter . . .

To emphasize that the difference between administrator and mediator is not minor, but major.

But none of these diminish my enjoyment of your post.
My intention is only to help you stay on target and keep up the good work.

No target, just resting in the Truths of the New Covenant .

Accuracy in presenting the word of God is always a good target.

 

[Elin]

Jgig, I couldn't agree more I'm sure if you cross any of my posts I've tried my best to show the simplicity of Christ when as u say we understand we're we are in him rather than him in us although he most certai my in us we have our very being in him in his life in his story ? My point is that our Jewish brothers have contended with many even tho truth is clearly evident, then supposition ,misapplication, condemnation , accusation , and worse, now there must come a point when debate becomes futile, I'm afraid some god fearing people here have exhausted themselves trying to show truth humility and clarity but behold its not ended brotherly?

Read it all? Elin? The next line says although he certainly is in us?, though more to the point we have our existence in him? Please dnt just quote half of what I write bt the whole then the context then by all means comment?

Okay, I had trouble deciphering what you said there.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Yes, he sat down because his work was finished, but he did not sit in the tabernacle.

I think you need to reconsider this. If not the heavenly tabernacle, where?

 

[Elin]

Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

I think you need to reconsider this. If not the heavenly tabernacle, where?

Well, Hebrews presents Christ as entering the heavenly tabernacle to purify it (Heb 9:23),
not to be seated there.
It presents Christ as seated at the right hand of the throne of God (Heb 1:3, 4:14, 8:1, 10:12),
not in the heavenly tabernacle.

Scripture presents God as in heaven (Mt 6:9; Col 4:1; 1Pe 3:22), and God's throne as in heaven (Ps 2:4, Isa 66:1; Mt 5:34),
not in the heavenly tabernacle.

Add to that, there was no seat in the earthly tabernacle, which was a copy of the heavenly tabernacle, where there would likewise be no seat.

So I see no Biblical warrant for Jesus being seated in the heavenly tabernacle, do you?

I think to avoid error, it's best just to state it the way Scripture states it, and to leave it at that.
I think it's best not to embellish Scripture, which does not state that Christ was seated in the heavenly tabernacle.

 

[Elin]

I think you need to reconsider this. If not the heavenly tabernacle, where?

Well, Hebrews presents Christ as entering the heavenly tabernacle to purify it (Heb 9:23),
not to be seated there.
It presents Christ as seated at the right hand of the throne of God (Heb 1:3, 4:14, 8:1, 10:12),
not in the heavenly tabernacle.

Scripture presents God as in heaven (Mt 6:9; Col 4:1; 1Pe 3:22), and God's throne as in heaven
(Ps 2:4, Isa 66:1; Mt 5:34), not in the heavenly tabernacle.

Add to that, there was no seat in the earthly tabernacle, which was a copy of the heavenly tabernacle, where there would likewise be no seat.

So I see no Biblical warrant for Jesus being seated in the heavenly tabernacle, do you?

I think to avoid error, it's best just to state it the way Scripture states it, and leave it at that.
I think it's best not to embellish Scripture, and it does not state that Christ was seated in the heavenly tabernacle.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well, Hebrews presents Christ as entering the heavenly tabernacle to purify it (Heb 9:23),
not to be seated there.
It presents Christ as seated at the right hand of the throne of God (Heb 1:3, 4:14, 8:1, 10:12),
not in the heavenly tabernacle.

Scripture presents God as in heaven (Mt 6:9; Col 4:1; 1Pe 3:22), and God's throne as in heaven
(Ps 2:4, Isa 66:1; Mt 5:34), not in the heavenly tabernacle.

Add to that, there was no seat in the earthly tabernacle, which was a copy of the heavenly tabernacle, where there would likewise be no seat.

So I see no Biblical warrant for Jesus being seated in the heavenly tabernacle, do you?

Considering the fact that GOD dwells in the heavenly tabernacle, yes, I do think there is biblical warrant that Christ sat down there.

The earthly tabernacle was merely a pattern of the heavenly one. It symbolized the dwelling place of GOD. So we would expect to find GOD in the heavenly tabernacle seated on his throne.

Even in the earthly one there was a mercy seat, which was a shadow of the throne of GOD.

 

[Elin]

Considering the fact that GOD dwells in the heavenly tabernacle, yes, I do think there is biblical warrant that Christ sat down there.

The earthly tabernacle was merely a pattern of the heavenly one. It symbolized the dwelling place of GOD. So we would expect to find GOD in the heavenly tabernacle seated on his throne.
Even in the earthly one there was a mercy seat, which was a shadow of the throne of GOD.

Well, actually the earthly tabernacle was the dwelling place of God (Ex 25:8, 29:45; Lev 26:11; Nu 5:3; Dt 12:11), rather than a symbol of it.

And here are some other things to consider:

God now dwells in his NT earthly temple not made by human hands (1Co 3:16; 2Co 6:16; Eph 2:21; Heb 3:6), which is the hearts of those who believe in his Son.

The mercy seat (hilasterion) was the cover of the Ark, which covered their sin symbolized within, in
the jar of manna, which was a testimony to their sin of grumbling (Ex 16:2-4, 33), and
Aaron's staff, which was a testimony to Korah's rebellion against the priesthood (Nu 16:1-3,
17:10).

Christ is both our hilasterion (propitiation) for sin (Ro 3:25) and the judge of sin not propitiated.

 

[Hoffco]

If people would stop picing the words they like ,out of the Bible and would look at the Whole, plain, clear words used by God;We could be in unity. God's has made His word very clear: Let me say more clearly, God has clearly told us that He has HID truth from the WISE of this world, and has REVEALED HIS TRUTH to babes. The problem is: must of us are not humble enough to admit that we are STUPID and LAZY; Let GOD'SWORD speak to you. The two words: mediator and administration (implying-administrator) are both applyed to Christ; so why denythat Jesus is both MEDEATOR and ADMINISTRATOR in the NEW COV>> ?? why be so PIGHEADED!?? read: 1Tim.2:5 Heb. 8:6 9:12 12:24 1cor. 12:4-6 2cor.8:19-20 9:12 Eph.4:7-8 Love to alll Hoffco