I think we probably agree on this. I was giving 3 possible meanings in deference to those who took the wrong meaning and developed a Rapture doctrine from it. I suspect we have the same or similar view of what Paul was really trying to tell us. Shoot me an email and let me know where your new thread on 1 Thes 4 is so I can join you there.
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I will keep this post VERY SIMPLE:
Zechariah 14:1-7 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
That certainly IS THE SCECOND COMING IN THAT PROPHECY.
How long do you figure it will take to gather the world's armies to do battle against the LORD near Jerusalem?
Now compare that to How Long HE TAKES to call His Bride the Church out of her Old Dwelling Place, Earth:
Matthew 24:27 (ASV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. {Notice this is his coming as the Son of man, as in seaking a Bride; NOT WHEN HE COMES AS THE COMMANDING GENERAL TO MAKE WAR.}
Genesis 34:12 (ESV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Ask me for as great a bride price and gift as you will, and I will give whatever you say to me. Only give me the young woman to be my wife.”
1 Corinthians 6:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
Ephesians 5:23 (ESV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Ephesians 5:25 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Revelation 18:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
Revelation 22:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Joel 2:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] gather the people. Consecrate the congregation; assemble the elders; gather the children, even nursing infants. Let the bridegroom leave his room,and the bride her chamber.
Even in the Parable of Ten Virgins, THE BRIDE, is represented by the Five Wise Virgins. They were CALLED OUT OF THEIR OLD DWELLING PLACE, and taken to the NEW DWELLING PLACE that the Bridegroom had built for them, specifically for the WEDDING. AND JESUS HIMSELF SAID ABOUT THAT SPECIFIC PARABLE:
Matthew 25:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Revelation 21:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {Do you NOT decorate or adorn the dwelling place where the Wedding takes place, in a similar manor as the Bride herself is adorned?}
John 14:2-3 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you. {That IS what a Jewish Bridegroom says and does after His Bride accepts HIS proposal. They are called Bridegroom and Bride throughout the Betrothal period.}
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.
John 3:29 (NKJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.
Luke 5:34-35 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
[SUP]35 [/SUP] But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
WHO is allowed to ENTER THE BRIDECHAMBER in a Jewish Wedding? ONLY the BRIDE and the BRIDEGROOM, hence the Church is the BRIDE; and here in verse 34 we are called children, because HE, our BRIDEGROOM, has given us the right to become Children of GOD, when we received HIM AS LORD.
John 1:12 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God--
Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,
If I may suggest, strive to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture as much as possible, like the Bereans did, and you will find that you will arrive far better interpretations.
Zechariah 14:1-7 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
That certainly IS THE SCECOND COMING IN THAT PROPHECY.
How long do you figure it will take to gather the world's armies to do battle against the LORD near Jerusalem?
Now compare that to How Long HE TAKES to call His Bride the Church out of her Old Dwelling Place, Earth:
Matthew 24:27 (ASV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. {Notice this is his coming as the Son of man, as in seaking a Bride; NOT WHEN HE COMES AS THE COMMANDING GENERAL TO MAKE WAR.}
Genesis 34:12 (ESV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Ask me for as great a bride price and gift as you will, and I will give whatever you say to me. Only give me the young woman to be my wife.”
1 Corinthians 6:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
Ephesians 5:23 (ESV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Ephesians 5:25 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Revelation 18:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
Revelation 22:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Joel 2:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] gather the people. Consecrate the congregation; assemble the elders; gather the children, even nursing infants. Let the bridegroom leave his room,and the bride her chamber.
Even in the Parable of Ten Virgins, THE BRIDE, is represented by the Five Wise Virgins. They were CALLED OUT OF THEIR OLD DWELLING PLACE, and taken to the NEW DWELLING PLACE that the Bridegroom had built for them, specifically for the WEDDING. AND JESUS HIMSELF SAID ABOUT THAT SPECIFIC PARABLE:
Matthew 25:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Revelation 21:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {Do you NOT decorate or adorn the dwelling place where the Wedding takes place, in a similar manor as the Bride herself is adorned?}
John 14:2-3 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you. {That IS what a Jewish Bridegroom says and does after His Bride accepts HIS proposal. They are called Bridegroom and Bride throughout the Betrothal period.}
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.
John 3:29 (NKJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.
Luke 5:34-35 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
[SUP]35 [/SUP] But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
WHO is allowed to ENTER THE BRIDECHAMBER in a Jewish Wedding? ONLY the BRIDE and the BRIDEGROOM, hence the Church is the BRIDE; and here in verse 34 we are called children, because HE, our BRIDEGROOM, has given us the right to become Children of GOD, when we received HIM AS LORD.
John 1:12 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God--
Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,
If I may suggest, strive to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture as much as possible, like the Bereans did, and you will find that you will arrive far better interpretations.
You quoted a bunch of scriptures but none of it proves or even hints at a Pre-Trib Rapture. The Lord coming as Lightening... Is that proof of a Rapture? No!! It means He comes fast. First off, the Lord isn't gathering the armies of earth, the Beast does that. The Lord gathers His Elect, His remnant. He can do that very quickly since we know He uses Angels.
The rest of your response is underwhelming, to be honest.
The rest of your response is underwhelming, to be honest.
Zechariah 14:1-3 (ESV)
1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
God may allow it to be done through a command from the Antichrist, but ULTIMATELY it is GOD who fulfills Prophecy.
Deuteronomy 28:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Jehovah will cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thee: they shall come out against thee one way, and shall flee before thee seven ways.
Isaiah 46:9-11 (GW)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Remember the first events, because I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there's no one like me.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] From the beginning I revealed the end. From long ago I told you things that had not yet happened, saying, “My plan will stand, and I'll do everything I intended to do.”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I will call a bird of prey from the east. I will call someone for my plan from a faraway land. I have spoken, and I will bring it about. I have planned it, and I will do it.
Antichrist's reign is numbered to exactly seven years. AT ANY POINT FROM CORONATION OR INAUGURATION ON, I can tell you the day of the Second Coming. ONLY when the Calling Out of the Bride takes place prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation, does the "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY" remain TRUE.
1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
God may allow it to be done through a command from the Antichrist, but ULTIMATELY it is GOD who fulfills Prophecy.
Deuteronomy 28:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Jehovah will cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thee: they shall come out against thee one way, and shall flee before thee seven ways.
Isaiah 46:9-11 (GW)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Remember the first events, because I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there's no one like me.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] From the beginning I revealed the end. From long ago I told you things that had not yet happened, saying, “My plan will stand, and I'll do everything I intended to do.”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I will call a bird of prey from the east. I will call someone for my plan from a faraway land. I have spoken, and I will bring it about. I have planned it, and I will do it.
Antichrist's reign is numbered to exactly seven years. AT ANY POINT FROM CORONATION OR INAUGURATION ON, I can tell you the day of the Second Coming. ONLY when the Calling Out of the Bride takes place prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation, does the "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY" remain TRUE.
So you want to question my salvation and my faith because I disagree with you? You assume that you have it right and because someone else thinks differently, that they are not saved or don't value the scriptures the way that you think you do.
You have been taught Satan's biggest lie since the Garden of Eden, the Pre-Trib Rapture lie. Because you believe this lie, you see scripture through the lens of this lie. Rather than reading the Word and taking the clear meaning of the Word, you instead have to "twist" the Word to fit the Rapture doctrine rather than testing the Rapture doctrine against the Word. If you were to test the Rapture Doctrine you would find the below:
1. No passage that places the Lord's Return BEFORE the Tribulation
2. No passage that discusses 2 separate future returns of the Lord
3. No passage that distinguishes between a Rapture return and the Second Coming
4. No passage that places a Raptured Church in heaven during the Tribulation
5. No passage that states anyone will be removed from earth AND taken to heaven to avoid the tribulation
6. No passage that actually teaches the Rapture as a Biblical truth or lesson such as the Feeding of the 5,000
All of the above are Key Rapture tenants yet NONE are taught. But you believe them anyway. Isn't that how Satan works? Isn't that how Satan deceives? He takes the Word of God and twists it ever so slightly to make it more acceptable and in so doing corrupts the Word and those who listen to him.
For you the Rapture Doctrine is more important than the Word itself. You feel obligated to defend it at all costs. If someone believes in Satan's Big Lie, then 1/3 of the Word which is prophetic is distorted. By your own words you see the 144,000 as a bunch of losers not worthy to be Raptured who will NOT be a part of the Bride of Christ. This is heresy. The Bible teaches that the 144,000 are the cream of the crop of all Christians. They are called, FAITHFUL and CHOSEN. They are called (Spiritually) Virgin, not having slept with (false doctrines or teachings). The 144,000 are called Firstfruits Redeemed from Men. Do you have any concept what a firstfruit is or means? The Elect, the 144,000 are sealed with the knowledge and truth of God and CANNOT be deceived. This group are the ones Christ has chosen from the foundation of the earth to do battle against Satan in the last days. You look at them as a bunch of losers that you are superior to. This thinking is 180 degrees out-of-phase.
To believe in the Rapture, you must think that every saint on earth during the Tribulation didn't make the cut. You must think that every warning about the Tribulation is irrelevant to you because in your mind, you won't be here. You think all of Christ's warnings and Paul's warnings don't apply to you and instead apply to a group of unsaved people who later repent and come to the Lord after the Rapture. You see a great revival after the Rapture when Paul teaches a Falling Away.
You look at the Jewish people as sinners not worthy of the Rapture because they strayed or perhaps you blame them for Christ's crucifixion. You think the Jews need to be purified by fire but the Christian Church doesn't. You think you are more worthy than they to escape the Tribulation. You want to ungraft yourself from the Olive Tree (Rom 11). You don't see yourself as part of their salvation even though Paul and Jesus both teach that Salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22). You forget that the Jewish people are God's chosen people and that He loves them. We are to be one Olive Tree lest we become Haughty and if God can graft us in with the Jews He can also rip us out.
You fail to see that Jesus, Paul and Peter specifically teach against there being a Pre-Trib Rapture. Every place where the timing of the Lord's return is given, it is given after the Tribulation. You jump to false conclusions all over the place about the true meaning of much of the Word because of your false Rapture doctrine. You are content in doing so because you view the Rapture as a Biblical truth therefore you have license to "rightly divide" the Word any way necessary to make the Word conform to your False Premise.
I am not trying to be mean or put you down. I was taught the Rapture too as a child. My dad was a Baptist minister and missionary for 18 years. I had to read for myself to see that there is no rapture (at least not as it was taught). Once you see the truth you have to reprogram your mind about so many things that you believed as a result of this one lie. I pray that you may be able to open your eyes and see the truth before its too late because the Hour of Temptation will come upon the whole world and only the Elect are exempt from it.
By the Way, the 144,000 are part of the ELECT. They will be part of the Bride of Christ, a big part.
You have been taught Satan's biggest lie since the Garden of Eden, the Pre-Trib Rapture lie. Because you believe this lie, you see scripture through the lens of this lie. Rather than reading the Word and taking the clear meaning of the Word, you instead have to "twist" the Word to fit the Rapture doctrine rather than testing the Rapture doctrine against the Word. If you were to test the Rapture Doctrine you would find the below:
1. No passage that places the Lord's Return BEFORE the Tribulation
2. No passage that discusses 2 separate future returns of the Lord
3. No passage that distinguishes between a Rapture return and the Second Coming
4. No passage that places a Raptured Church in heaven during the Tribulation
5. No passage that states anyone will be removed from earth AND taken to heaven to avoid the tribulation
6. No passage that actually teaches the Rapture as a Biblical truth or lesson such as the Feeding of the 5,000
All of the above are Key Rapture tenants yet NONE are taught. But you believe them anyway. Isn't that how Satan works? Isn't that how Satan deceives? He takes the Word of God and twists it ever so slightly to make it more acceptable and in so doing corrupts the Word and those who listen to him.
For you the Rapture Doctrine is more important than the Word itself. You feel obligated to defend it at all costs. If someone believes in Satan's Big Lie, then 1/3 of the Word which is prophetic is distorted. By your own words you see the 144,000 as a bunch of losers not worthy to be Raptured who will NOT be a part of the Bride of Christ. This is heresy. The Bible teaches that the 144,000 are the cream of the crop of all Christians. They are called, FAITHFUL and CHOSEN. They are called (Spiritually) Virgin, not having slept with (false doctrines or teachings). The 144,000 are called Firstfruits Redeemed from Men. Do you have any concept what a firstfruit is or means? The Elect, the 144,000 are sealed with the knowledge and truth of God and CANNOT be deceived. This group are the ones Christ has chosen from the foundation of the earth to do battle against Satan in the last days. You look at them as a bunch of losers that you are superior to. This thinking is 180 degrees out-of-phase.
To believe in the Rapture, you must think that every saint on earth during the Tribulation didn't make the cut. You must think that every warning about the Tribulation is irrelevant to you because in your mind, you won't be here. You think all of Christ's warnings and Paul's warnings don't apply to you and instead apply to a group of unsaved people who later repent and come to the Lord after the Rapture. You see a great revival after the Rapture when Paul teaches a Falling Away.
You look at the Jewish people as sinners not worthy of the Rapture because they strayed or perhaps you blame them for Christ's crucifixion. You think the Jews need to be purified by fire but the Christian Church doesn't. You think you are more worthy than they to escape the Tribulation. You want to ungraft yourself from the Olive Tree (Rom 11). You don't see yourself as part of their salvation even though Paul and Jesus both teach that Salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22). You forget that the Jewish people are God's chosen people and that He loves them. We are to be one Olive Tree lest we become Haughty and if God can graft us in with the Jews He can also rip us out.
You fail to see that Jesus, Paul and Peter specifically teach against there being a Pre-Trib Rapture. Every place where the timing of the Lord's return is given, it is given after the Tribulation. You jump to false conclusions all over the place about the true meaning of much of the Word because of your false Rapture doctrine. You are content in doing so because you view the Rapture as a Biblical truth therefore you have license to "rightly divide" the Word any way necessary to make the Word conform to your False Premise.
I am not trying to be mean or put you down. I was taught the Rapture too as a child. My dad was a Baptist minister and missionary for 18 years. I had to read for myself to see that there is no rapture (at least not as it was taught). Once you see the truth you have to reprogram your mind about so many things that you believed as a result of this one lie. I pray that you may be able to open your eyes and see the truth before its too late because the Hour of Temptation will come upon the whole world and only the Elect are exempt from it.
By the Way, the 144,000 are part of the ELECT. They will be part of the Bride of Christ, a big part.
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Hey VCO. I have a few questions for you. Please explain this verse to me. Please answer each of my questions below from your Pre-Trib Rapture viewpoint. I'm just curious what you believe about this verse.
2 Thes 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed...
Why would Paul need to warn us not to be deceived (BY ANY MEANS) about when the Day of the Lord is if we Christians aren't going to be here?
If we are to be Raptured before the Man of Sin is revealed than why would it matter what we believe concerning the timing of the appearance of the Man of Sin?
If this warning applies only to those left behind, why would it matter to them? I mean if they missed the Rapture then they would certainly know they are in the Tribulation. And if they are in the Tribulation, and came to the Lord they would certainly know that the Antichrist comes next followed by the Day of the Lord so this verse would have no meaning to them either? They aren't going to think there will be a second Rapture before the Antichrist appears, would they?
Why didn't Paul just say this in a matter-of-fact way instead of making it a stern warning?
2 Thes 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed...
Why would Paul need to warn us not to be deceived (BY ANY MEANS) about when the Day of the Lord is if we Christians aren't going to be here?
If we are to be Raptured before the Man of Sin is revealed than why would it matter what we believe concerning the timing of the appearance of the Man of Sin?
If this warning applies only to those left behind, why would it matter to them? I mean if they missed the Rapture then they would certainly know they are in the Tribulation. And if they are in the Tribulation, and came to the Lord they would certainly know that the Antichrist comes next followed by the Day of the Lord so this verse would have no meaning to them either? They aren't going to think there will be a second Rapture before the Antichrist appears, would they?
Why didn't Paul just say this in a matter-of-fact way instead of making it a stern warning?
OH MY, not only did you not NOT even attempt to answer my question, but you twisted the Scriptures HORRIBLY, and totally have a false idea of what I teach and Believe. So is this ALL A REBELLION against your DAD's beliefs?
If you have my Beliefs totally misunderstood, I suspect you totally misunderstood your Dad also.
Let's start with the most important thing. Man is made up of three parts, body, soul, and spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The body = the sum total of ALL the tangible cells, anything that you can look at under a microscope.
The soul = the sum total of the intangible parts of the hum mind, pysche {in fact the Greek word for soul is pysche}, thoughts, memories, emotions, cognative abilities, feeling, etc.
Luke 12:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, be merry.
Clearly her JESUS is referring to a internal mental debate, or the functions of the human mind, as being the soul of man.
The spirit = the part that leaves the body upon death and if one is born again it goes directly to be with the LORD in heaven, and if is still spiritually dead it goes directly to the torments of Hades.
Psalm 146:3-4 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
Philippians 1:23-26 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
[SUP]26 [/SUP] that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.
The spiritually dead human spirit is functioning but NOT alive to the will of GOD. That human spirit is dead in the sinful nature that we inherited from Adam; and it is purely in tune with the desires of the flesh and totally concerned about SELF only, from natural birth on to the very moment we are born again via the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:1-2 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
But that ONCE DEAD spirit is born again to eternal life, when we are broken by sense of guilt over our utter sinfulness, crying out to GOD for forgiveness, for that is the HOLY SPIRIT Who finally got through to our stone cold sinful heart, and with that conviction of sin HE brings our once dead spirits to become Eternally ALIVE to GOD, in tune with HIS will. The mind of the flesh is still there and still has sin in it; BUT for the first time we have the power to say NO to the temptation to sin.
It is after we are born again that our spirit HUNGERS TO UNDERSTAND GOD's WORD, and it is the Holy Spirit in us that teaches us all truths, and gives us understanding of the Scriptures.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It appears to me that you have willfully blinded yourself to the TRUTH, about the Rapture, the Future of Israel, what we really teach about the Bride being Called out to GO to the Wedding of the Lamb, and probably about a LOT of other TRUTHS, just to prove your earthly father wrong about something.
Dear VCO
Explain this what you said The spirit = the part that leaves the body upon death and if one is born again it goes directly to be with the LORD in heaven, and if is still spiritually dead it goes directly to the torments of Hades.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
To me it look like the bible is saying that both the wicked and born again spirit when they die the both of them spiit goes back to God in heaven
Explain this what you said The spirit = the part that leaves the body upon death and if one is born again it goes directly to be with the LORD in heaven, and if is still spiritually dead it goes directly to the torments of Hades.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
To me it look like the bible is saying that both the wicked and born again spirit when they die the both of them spiit goes back to God in heaven
"
You tell me,
have you ever come to Jesus Christ or the Father broken hearted over your sinfulness,
crying out for HIS forgiveness?
And then did you honestly surrender control to Jesus Christ and receive Him as LORD (which means MASTER);
or are you still lord of your own life? If not that is the starting point of Born Again.
What does this portion of scripture say to your heart?
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And this one:
John 14:26 (NKJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Of course we still have to study, for it is through the study of His Word that the Holy Spirit speaks understanding to our spirits.
There are TWO main rules to studying to receive spiritual understanding:
1. READ THE ENTIRE CONTEXT, paying very close attention to whom the verse is being spoken to, what is the primary subject or subjects; and why it is being said.
2. DO THE RESEARCH into other verses about the SAME SUBJECT. GOD will not contradict Himself.
Any time we think we found a contradiction we are CERTAIN that we mis-interpreted one if not both verses.
When you find a meaning that does not create contradictions, that is a pretty clear indication that you truly have found the WORD OF GOD.
Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I have a suggestion to add to those two main Rules. Listen for the still small voice of the Holy Spirit as you Study; and remember it is hard to hear HIM if you have a headset on grooving to your tunes. He will speak to your heart.
Colossians 1:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Have you ever started your Bible Study with a prayer like this AND MEANING IT WITH ALL YOUR HEART:
"Father you speak to me through your WORD, let me and my opinions get out of the way.
Drive out any deceiving spirit, and let your HOLY SPIRIT teach me the understanding through this study.
In Jesus' Name I pray. AMEN."
Matthew 7:7-8 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
have you ever come to Jesus Christ or the Father broken hearted over your sinfulness,
crying out for HIS forgiveness?
And then did you honestly surrender control to Jesus Christ and receive Him as LORD (which means MASTER);
or are you still lord of your own life? If not that is the starting point of Born Again.
What does this portion of scripture say to your heart?
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And this one:
John 14:26 (NKJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Of course we still have to study, for it is through the study of His Word that the Holy Spirit speaks understanding to our spirits.
There are TWO main rules to studying to receive spiritual understanding:
1. READ THE ENTIRE CONTEXT, paying very close attention to whom the verse is being spoken to, what is the primary subject or subjects; and why it is being said.
2. DO THE RESEARCH into other verses about the SAME SUBJECT. GOD will not contradict Himself.
Any time we think we found a contradiction we are CERTAIN that we mis-interpreted one if not both verses.
When you find a meaning that does not create contradictions, that is a pretty clear indication that you truly have found the WORD OF GOD.
Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I have a suggestion to add to those two main Rules. Listen for the still small voice of the Holy Spirit as you Study; and remember it is hard to hear HIM if you have a headset on grooving to your tunes. He will speak to your heart.
Colossians 1:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Have you ever started your Bible Study with a prayer like this AND MEANING IT WITH ALL YOUR HEART:
"Father you speak to me through your WORD, let me and my opinions get out of the way.
Drive out any deceiving spirit, and let your HOLY SPIRIT teach me the understanding through this study.
In Jesus' Name I pray. AMEN."
Matthew 7:7-8 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
No. Dad does have it wrong, and you have it wrong also. That has nothing to do with what I believe and why. There is no rapture. You are blinded by Satan. You don't understand the concept of the Wedding of the Lamb. You believe in 200 year old false doctrines that were never taught by Jesus or any disciple. I understand fully everything else you wrote but none of it creates or supports the False Rapture Doctrine.
t t t
When I teach the Calling Out of the Bride, my heart leaps for JOY, and is full of LOVE for our Bridegroom.
When you teach against it, you are full of bitterness and contempt.
When I teach that HIS Covenant with ISRAEL is eternal, and because of HIS Grace and MERCY, GOD will bring it to fulfillment during the Great Tribulation and on into Christ's Thousand Kingdom where ISRAEL will be His mortal subjects. I Love them, and my heart is Joyful for them!
When you teach against them, you do so by twisting the Scriptures, and again you are full of bitterness, contempt, envy, and coveting, claiming verses and promises to ISRAEL for yourself.
Where is your LOVE?
Where is your JOY?
Why are they MISSING?
The Joy I know when I teach the verses that point to the Calling Out of the Bride, is exactly like:
Luke 24:32 (NIV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us
while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
Why are you so full of BITTERNESS and CONTEMPT.
When I Teach about the Future of ISRAEL, I BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS:
Revelation 7:4-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed.
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
[SUP]5 [/SUP] of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
AND WHERE IS THE CHURCH at that POINT IN TIME?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“For I the Lord do not change; . . .
Hosea 1:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them--not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the Lord their God."
Zechariah 12:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10[/SUP]“Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly for Him as one weeps for a firstborn.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
2 Chronicles 9:8 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed be the Lord your God, who delighted in you, setting you on His throne to be king for the Lord your God! Because your God has loved Israel, to establish them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness."
And when you teach, you CONTRADICT WHAT GOD HAS SAID.
WHY, do you so fervantly strike out at what your Dad and I teach with bitterness and contempt.
And EVERY COMMENT except that last one that started with "You" is a distorted lie about what I and most likely your DAD teaches, I am sure you want to believe those lies are really what we believe. Someone filled your head with UNTRUTHS about what we teach and believe. YOU SEE WE BELIEVE WE HAVE TO KEEP READY WATCHING FOR HIS APPEARING, while your theology leaves people to believe one can wait to GET READY until after the Antichrist is revealed. By the WAY, it is NOT a COMING, when HIS feet do not touch the earth; REMEMBER HE appeared to Paul after His ascension .
THE ONLY ONE YOU GOT ABSOLUTELY RIGHT IS:
"You fail to see that Jesus, Paul and Peter specifically teach against there being a Pre-Trib Rapture."
Who taught you those things, and why does it take lies about what we teach and believe, to support what you want to believe?
Isaiah 5:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
When I teach the Calling Out of the Bride, my heart leaps for JOY, and is full of LOVE for our Bridegroom.
When you teach against it, you are full of bitterness and contempt.
When I teach that HIS Covenant with ISRAEL is eternal, and because of HIS Grace and MERCY, GOD will bring it to fulfillment during the Great Tribulation and on into Christ's Thousand Kingdom where ISRAEL will be His mortal subjects. I Love them, and my heart is Joyful for them!
When you teach against them, you do so by twisting the Scriptures, and again you are full of bitterness, contempt, envy, and coveting, claiming verses and promises to ISRAEL for yourself.
Where is your LOVE?
Where is your JOY?
Why are they MISSING?
The Joy I know when I teach the verses that point to the Calling Out of the Bride, is exactly like:
Luke 24:32 (NIV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us
while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
Why are you so full of BITTERNESS and CONTEMPT.
When I Teach about the Future of ISRAEL, I BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS:
Revelation 7:4-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed.
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
[SUP]5 [/SUP] of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
AND WHERE IS THE CHURCH at that POINT IN TIME?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“For I the Lord do not change; . . .
Hosea 1:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them--not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the Lord their God."
Zechariah 12:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10[/SUP]“Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly for Him as one weeps for a firstborn.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
2 Chronicles 9:8 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed be the Lord your God, who delighted in you, setting you on His throne to be king for the Lord your God! Because your God has loved Israel, to establish them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness."
And when you teach, you CONTRADICT WHAT GOD HAS SAID.
WHY, do you so fervantly strike out at what your Dad and I teach with bitterness and contempt.
And EVERY COMMENT except that last one that started with "You" is a distorted lie about what I and most likely your DAD teaches, I am sure you want to believe those lies are really what we believe. Someone filled your head with UNTRUTHS about what we teach and believe. YOU SEE WE BELIEVE WE HAVE TO KEEP READY WATCHING FOR HIS APPEARING, while your theology leaves people to believe one can wait to GET READY until after the Antichrist is revealed. By the WAY, it is NOT a COMING, when HIS feet do not touch the earth; REMEMBER HE appeared to Paul after His ascension .
THE ONLY ONE YOU GOT ABSOLUTELY RIGHT IS:
"You fail to see that Jesus, Paul and Peter specifically teach against there being a Pre-Trib Rapture."
Who taught you those things, and why does it take lies about what we teach and believe, to support what you want to believe?
Isaiah 5:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
The church will be protected during the tribulation
Exodus 8
22 And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lordin the midst of the earth.
23And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.
24 And the Lord did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.
VCO
how long are the saints in heaven for ?
Exodus 8
22 And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lordin the midst of the earth.
23And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.
24 And the Lord did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.
VCO
how long are the saints in heaven for ?