What Laws are still valid to christians

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
Well, actually the earthly tabernacle was the dwelling place of God (Ex 25:8, 29:45; Lev 26:11; Nu 5:3; Dt 12:11), rather than a symbol of it.
No it wasn't. It was an earthly representation of GOD's heavenly abode.

[Levite priests,] Who serve the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern [of the heavenly tabernacle] shewed to you in the mount. Hebrews 8:5​
 
Last edited:
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
God now dwells in his NT earthly temple not made by human hands (1Co 3:16; 2Co 6:16; Eph 2:21; Heb 3:6), which is the hearts of those who believe in his Son.
GOD dwells in his people through his spirit, just like he did in the earthly tabernacle. He personally, the one true GOD, is not here on earth. Not yet.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
Well, actually the earthly tabernacle was the dwelling place of God (Ex 25:8, 29:45; Lev 26:11; Nu 5:3; Dt 12:11), rather than a symbol of it.
The Most High does not live in houses made by human hands, just as the prophet says, ‘Heaven is my throne and earth is the footstool for my feet. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest? Acts 7:48-49

Will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have builded? 1 Kings 8:27
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
Re: Old Covenant or New Covenant - Old Adam or Last Adam?

Yes, he sat down because his work was finished, but he did not sit in the tabernacle.
Hebrews 10:11-14
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


The immediacy of Christ sitting at the Right Hand of God certainly suggests that it happened in the Heavenly Tabernacle, though doesn't necessarily mean that it happened in the Heavenly Tabernacle.

We all see in a glass darkly; God's Throne of Grace may actually be in the Heavenly Tabernacle - the place where His Plan of Redemption is Reality. The New Covenant has been mediated AND administered. The work is DONE. The sin issue has been dealt with. That's the important take-away point, yes?

God is omnipresent, so is everywhere, not just on His Heavenly Throne, yes?

Likewise, Jesus appeared to Paul, and people have testified that He has appeared since then in this realm, so obviously He isn't glued to that 'seat', where ever it physically is.

You can parse all you want; the intent of the passage is the contrast stated here:

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. =
Work NEVER done because there were always more sins with which to deal.

12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, = Work is DONE - 'It is Finished!' - THIS High Priest RESTS.
Sin was completely dealt with - God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself remembering their sins no more (2 Cor. 5).



Confusion in such details inevitably leads in time to wrong theology.
So does endless parsing and a need to get in the last word.

It usually isn't the one who presents misinformation that progresses to the radical departure.
I'm content to present the Word, give my opinion, and let the Holy Spirit do as He will. We all have it somewhat wrong; yet the Scriptures are quite clear about getting the Gospel across, in spite of us :).

It's usually others who then take the misinformation and apply it logically, which results in a radical departure from its Biblical meaning.
There is no rest in trying to control outcome; results are God's department.

To emphasize that the difference between administrator and mediator is not minor, but major.
Yet you wrote here and here that Christ is a High Priest (and He is), and declared that high priests administrate law.

So I'll go back to my thing where I say that Christ is BOTH mediator AND administrator of the New Covenant. Parse all you want; I'll rest in the Truth that Christ is my Perfect High Priest :D:






Accuracy in presenting the word of God is always a good target.




-JGIG
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
Well, actually the earthly tabernacle was the dwelling place of God (Ex 25:8, 29:45; Lev 26:11; Nu 5:3; Dt 12:11), rather than a symbol of it.
No it wasn't. It was an earthly representation of GOD's heavenly abode.
You didn't check out those Scriptures, did you?

[Levite priests,] Who serve the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern [of the heavenly tabernacle] shewed to you in the mount. Hebrews 8:5
That doesn't alter God actually dwelling in the earthly tabernacle, as stated in the Scriptures presented above.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
If people would stop picing the words they like ,out of the Bible and would look at the Whole, plain, clear words used by God;We could be in unity. God's has made His word very clear: Let me say more clearly, God has clearly told us that He has HID truth from the WISE of this world, and has REVEALED HIS TRUTH to babes. The problem is: must of us are not humble enough to admit that we are STUPID and LAZY; Let GOD'SWORD speak to you. The two words: mediator and administration (implying-administrator) are both applyed to Christ; so why denythat Jesus is both MEDEATOR and ADMINISTRATOR in the NEW COV>> ?? why be so PIGHEADED!?? read: 1Tim.2:5 Heb. 8:6 9:12 12:24 1cor. 12:4-6 2cor.8:19-20 9:12 Eph.4:7-8 Love to alll Hoffco
What are you referring to?

Are you saying the NT states that Christ administered the New Covenant?

If so, could you give a reference?
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
GOD dwells in his people through his spirit, just like he did in the earthly tabernacle.
Yes, and the Holy Spirit is God, just as the Son is God.
That is why his people are the NT Temple.

He personally, the one true GOD, is not here on earth. Not yet.
Well, there are several indwellings in the NT:

the Holy Spirit in believers,
the Son in believers (Jn 17:23),
the Father in the Son (Jn 17:21, 23).

The Father is in the Son, who in turn is in us.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
The Most High does not live in houses made by human hands, just as the prophet says, ‘Heaven is my throne and earth is the footstool for my feet. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest? Acts 7:48-49

Will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have builded? 1 Kings 8:27
Then why do you say the cover of the Ark was God's throne?

Looks like you've got some Scriptures to reconcile--1Sa 4:4; 2Sa 6:2; Ex 25:8, 29:45; Lev 26:11; Nu 5:3; Dt 12:11.
 
Last edited:
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
Yes, and the Holy Spirit is God, just as the Son is God.
That is why his people are the NT Temple.
Well, there are several indwellings in the NT:
the Holy Spirit in believers,
the Son in believers (Jn 17:23),
the Father in the Son (Jn 17:21, 23).
The Father is in the Son, who in turn is in us.
But the father, the one true GOD, is neither the son, nor the holy spirit. He has his own abode that is not on earth, nor was it on earth during the old covenant. Jesus said he was going away to his father's house, which means it's not on earth.

In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places; but if not, I would have told you, because I am going away to prepare a place for you [in my father's house]. John 14:2​
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
Looks like you've got sme Scriptures to reconcile--Ex 25:8, 29:45; Lev 26:11; Nu 5:3; Dt 12:11.
Those scriptures are referring to the dwelling place of the spirit, not GOD the father who is in heaven.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
Yes, and the Holy Spirit is God, just as the Son is God.
That is why his people are the NT Temple.

There are several indwellings in the NT:

the Holy Spirit in believers,
the Son in believers (Jn 17:23),
the Father in the Son (Jn 17:21, 23).
The Father is in the Son, who in turn is in us.
But the father, the one true GOD, is neither the son, nor the holy spirit. He has his own abode that is not on earth, nor was it on earth during the old covenant. Jesus said he was going away to his father's house, which means it's not on earth.

In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places; but if not, I would have told you, because I am going away to prepare a place for you [in my father's house]. John 14:2​
You have not dealt with the Scriptures presented above.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Those scriptures are referring to the dwelling place of the spirit, not GOD the father who is in heaven.
The "spirit" is the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of God as well as the Spirit of Christ, and who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There are not three parts of God, there are three persons in one God.
You have separated God into three parts.
God is only one being.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
You can parse all you want; the intent of the passage is the contrast stated here:
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. =
Work NEVER done because there were always more sins with which to deal.

12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, = Work is DONE - 'It is Finished!' - THIS High Priest RESTS.
Sin was completely dealt with - God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself remembering their sins no more (2 Cor. 5).
We are agreed on the intent of the passage.

Our issue is where you are seating him.

Confusion in such details inevitably leads in time to wrong theology.
So does endless parsing and a need to get in the last word.
A logical progession of that sequence would be appreciated.

You wrote here and here that Christ is a High Priest (and He is), and declared that
high priests administrate law.
Yes, the law is administrated, but covenants are not.

So I'll go back to my thing where I say that Christ is BOTH mediator AND
administrator of the New Covenant.
In Scripture, covenants are not administrated.

Christ is never referred to in Scripture as the administrator of the New Covenant.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Elin said:
Yes, and the Holy Spirit is God, just as the Son is God.
That is why his people are the NT Temple.

There are several indwellings in the NT:

the Holy Spirit in believers,
the Son in believers (Jn 17:23),
the Father in the Son (Jn 17:21, 23).
The Father is in the Son, who in turn is in us.
But the father, the one true GOD, is neither the son, nor the holy spirit. He has his own abode that is not on earth, nor was it on earth during the old covenant. Jesus said he was going away to his father's house, which means it's not on earth.

In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places; but if not, I would have told you, because I am going away to prepare a place for you [in my father's house]. John 14:2.
You have not dealt with these Scriptures.
I'm not the type of person who jumps through hoops ...
Are these the kinds of hoops you do not jump through:

Is the Holy Spirit God as the Father is God?

Is the Son God as the Father is God?
 
Last edited:
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
691
113
Are these the kinds of hoops you do not jump through:

Is the Holy Spirit God as the Father is God?

Is the Son God as the Father is God?
Those questions are distractions that have nothing to do with the topic under discussion.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
We are agreed on the intent of the passage.

Our issue is where you are seating him.
I have no issue with where He is seated. I'm content to take Scripture for what it says and see the actual layout when I see Him in person :D.

The point is that Christ did sit down; He rested from His work, something that earthly priest were never permitted to do.


A logical progession of that sequence would be appreciated.
No need; one can simply read through the last few pages of this thread.


Yes, the law is administrated, but covenants are not.
And Christ did both.

The Law was given to Moses; Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ. (Jn 1)


In Scripture, covenants are not administrated.

Christ is never referred to in Scripture as the administrator of the New Covenant.
Perhaps it would be helpful if you re-read my post that you seem to have taken issue with:


An entire New Covenant had to be put in place, as Christ Jesus was made High Priest by an oath from God, and Christ is not of the Tribe of Levi, but of the Tribe of Judah.

What does that mean? Jesus cannot legally administer the Old Covenant.



Elin, you did stipulate that high priests administrate the Law, yes?



Those who put themselves under the Old Covenant have NO representation in the Heavenly Tabernacle.

Those who preach Law-keeping preach that sacrifices will resume in the Millennium. Really? There will be no priesthood to administer that - Jesus is a Priest Forever by the power of an indestructible life (Heb. 7:16), and He's of the Tribe of Judah, which cannot legally administer the Old Covenant, and there are no sacrifices in the New Covenant save sacrifices of Praise \o/! Not only that, but Christ Jesus was the final, once for all sacrifice:​

Hebrews 10:8-10

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Nope, the New Covenant is His thing, and there are no sacrifices in the New Covenant, because​


Hebrews 10:1-14

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. [Remember that in Jer 31 God says He will remember our sins no more, and in 2 Cor 5:19 God says that in Christ, He was reconciling man to Himself, not counting our trespasses against us] 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”


8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Jesus sat down when His Work was done; something that priests in the Temple were never permitted to do - their work was never done - there were always more sins that needed to be dealt with.


And because the Work of Christ was finished for all time with His own perfect Sacrifice, His 'administrative' duties were short-lived; He sat down. There is no more sacrifice for sins. No need for further administering in the New Covenant - the Priestly duties are complete.

-JGIG