KJV-Onlyism - Have We Been Lied To?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 21, 2012
2,982
40
0
#1
KJV-Onlyism - Have We Been Lied To?
by Dr. Robert Joyner

link -> http://www.kjvonly.org/robert/joyner_have_we_been_lied_to.html

In this article I will show the KJV Only group has repeatedly lied and misrepresented the facts, not just a few times, but over and over. This is the way they propagate their theory. Lying and deception is normal for them.

New Age Versions

Gail Riplinger’s writings are a good example of distortion, twisting the facts and outright lying. When I was sent an advertisement of her NEW AGE VERSIONS, it was evident this book was extreme and way out in left field. She claimed there was a hidden alliance between the new Bible versions and the New Age Movement. She asserted that the New Versions had occult origins. They would prepare the churches of the last day to accept the religion of the Anti-Christ and to receive his mark.

Anyone in his right mind knows that no Bible will do this. The New Age movement is not built on any Bible. The Anti-Christ will not have any kind of Bible. He will be against all Bibles. Later on I learned that many gullible people were buying Riplinger’s book. That is unbelievable, I thought.

When I saw a copy of her book, it was so evident that everything in it was slanted, twisted, or was a bald-faced lie. She could not get anything right. She even misquoted the KJV.

Everyone who has objectively investigated her NEW AGE BIBLE VERSIONS book has said virtually everything in the book is a misquotation, is misleading, is an error or is unsubstantiated statements.

David Cloud is a strong believer in the KJV Only view, but he said regarding NEW AGE VERSIONS, “It is the frequent error in documentation, in logic, and in statement of fact that gives cause for alarm. There are many good points made in the book, but it is so marred by error, carelessness, and faulty logic that it cannot be used as a dependable resource.” Cloud went on to say that the book was not accurate in its references, the documentation was unreliable and it contained countless statements which were entirely unsubstantiated.

Riplinger claimed she was inspired by God to write her book. She said it was such a direct revelation from God, she hesitated to put her name on it. So she put G. A. Riplinger, which meant to her, God as the author and Riplinger as secretary. So she is saying that God is the primary author.

The Bible clearly says inspiration stopped when Revelation chapter 22 was complete. Riplinger is doing the same thing cults do when they add their books to the Bible. Gail Riplinger is a heretic. She is not worthy to be taken seriously. Yet thousands read what she says and do not question it. This is amazing!

How can someone with the degrees and training which Mrs. Riplinger is supposed to have, make such mistakes? The answer is this. Mrs. Riplinger is not a Bible scholar. All of her degrees, her teaching, and her writing had been in the area of interior design. When she taught at Kent State, it was in the Home Economics department. She taught interior design.

Names Of KJV Only Books

Just the names of these crazy KJV Only books show the lack of logic the movement is built on. One is called THE FINAL AUTHORITY. Everybody should know the original Hebrew and Greek is the final authority. However, the purpose of this book is to show the KJV is the final authority. Another book is GOD WROTE ONLY ONE BIBLE. Of course God only wrote one Bible but the book tries to show God only wrote one version, which is entirely a different matter. But KJV Only folks don’t see the stretch here: the change from Bible to version.

Another book is THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME. The argument of this book attempts to tell readers that if something is different, it cancels whatever it differs with. That is faulty logic. A Ford and a Cadillac are different but one does not cancel the other. Both will carry you where you want to go. They both serve the same purpose. So Bible versions are different but they serve the same purpose. One version may be in old English, another in Modern English, but both serve the same purpose. KJV Only people can’t see this. Another book is, LET’S WEIGH THE EVIDENCE but the only evidence given is one sided and the only thing it proves is the lack of logic of the author. Is Logic and common sense being abandoned by modern preachers and Christians?

Word For Word Translation?

The KJV Only group is so against dynamic equivalency (This term means that translators give the meaning, rather than a word for word translation). They contend the KJV is a word for word translation. Actually there is no such thing possible. All translators know this.

Among Bible scholars it is well known that the KJV translators used many words to translate just one Hebrew or Greek word. The Hebrew for “word” or “thing” is rendered by eighty-four separate English words. The Hebrew word for “face” uses thirty-four English words. For the Hebrew word “sim”, they used fifty-nine English words. The Hebrew word for “good” uses forty-one words to translate it. To translate the Hebrew word for “much” or “many” the KJV translators used forty-four words. The Hebrew term for “turn back” uses sixty English words.

On the other hand, the KJV sometimes uses only one English word to translate many original words. “Vex” appears 37 times as a translation for 23 different Hebrew or Greek terms. The word “vile” is used to translate 9 different Hebrew words. The word “ordain” is used to translate 10 different Hebrew words and 12 different Greek words.

The expression “God forbid” is found about 12 times in the KJV Old Testament, but the Hebrew text which is being translated has no reference to Deity. The Hebrew exclamation which the KJV translators translated “God forbid” means something to be rejected immediately and decisively.

The phrase “God forbid” is found about 14 times in the KJV New Testament. It is found throughout Paul’s epistles. However, the word “God” is not found in the Greek in any of these places. This expression is used ten times in the book of Romans alone. Examples are Romans 3:4, 6, 31; 6:2, 15. This phrase in the Greek means “may it never be” or “Certainly not.” “God forbid” does convey the thought of the Greek, but it is not a word for word translation.

The Godly Hebrew people would never use a term like “God forbid.” To them it would be almost blasphemy. They would consider it taking God’s name in vain. Some Old Testament scribes would not even write the name of God in the manuscripts. They would leave the space blank.

In the Old Testament the phrase “God save the king” is used about five times. In none of these passages does the word “God” appear in the Hebrew text. It simply means, “may the king live.” (Example: II Samuel 16:16)

The English people in the 1600s continually used this term, and the translators put it in here instead of translating it literally, “Let the king live.”

The expression “God speed” is used in II John 10-11. In the Greek, it is the usual term for “hail” and is usually translated as “greet” or ‘’greeting” in the modern versions. There is no corresponding word in the Greek for “God” in this verse.

All of the above examples are not literal translations. The word “God” does not appear in the original in any of these verses.

The word “yet” is found in the KJV almost 700 times. In about 332 of these cases STRONG’s concordance records no corresponding Hebrew or Greek word. The translators put “yet” in to make the meaning clearer or for stylistic reasons. My point is that the KJV is not always a word for word translation, as some people assert.

In Matthew 27:44 the KJV says, “They cast the same in his teeth.” The Greek means they “reviled” him. There is no word for “teeth” in this Greek text. The translators used a term current in their day instead of translating it.

We see from the above examples that the KJV does contain some dynamic equivalency. It is not always a literal translation and certainly not a word for word translation.

Actually the NASB is a more literal translation than the KJV. If the KJV Only people really wanted a literal translation, they would like it but instead they curse it.

Verses Left Out?

The KJV people ask, “Why do the modern versions leave verses and words out?” I think they have the question reversed. It should be, “Why does the KJV insert so many words and verses?” The fact is, the Textus Receptus and the KJV translators included most any verse or phrase that was in any manuscript, which was available to them. The modern versions put the verse in only if the manuscript evidence required it. This is more logical. The KJV is based on the Byzantine text, which is a derived text. It obviously incorporates into itself the earlier readings found in both the Alexandrian and Western texts. When manuscripts differed, they would put in both readings. For example, in Luke 24:53 the KJV says they were “Praising and blessing God.” The Alexandrian text says “blessing God.” The Western text says “praising God.” The Byzantine text joined both readings together rather than omitting one reading. Erasmus even put verses in out of the Latin vulgate. So there are verses and phases in the KJV that are not found in any Greek manuscript. Examples are parts of Acts 9:5-6 and Rev. 22:14. Remember it is just as bad to add to the Word as it is to delete.(Rev. 22:18)

At least when you read the modern versions you know the doubtful verses have been deleted. Therefore you know you are reading the pure word of God. When you read the KJV you may be reading a verse which is doubtful or is not in any manuscript in existence.

Actually many verses that are left out of the modern versions are repeats. For example, in Mark 9, the KJV says three times, “the fire is not quenched.” The Modern versions have it only once.

Talking about adding and leaving out verses, the 1611 KJV added 14 entire books, a total of 172 chapters, called the Apocrypha. Certainly no other version adds or takes away this many verses. The 1611 KJV is the worst version of all about adding verses. How dare the KJV Only people to even talk about leaving out verses! I know Peter Ruckman and others give silly excuses and explanations for the 1611 KJV containing the Apocrypha, but the bottom line is, the original KJV contained the Apocrypha.

To be KJV Only you have to abandon all logic, ignore the facts, spin your view, slant everything in your favor, and have the attitude, “My mind is made up. Don’t bother me with the facts. They don’t matter.”

The Alexandrian Text

Peter Ruckman says that anything that comes from Alexandria, Egypt or Rome, Italy must be wrong. Anything that comes from Antioch, Syria must be right. (See Ruckman’s booklet,The Monarch of the Books) Therefore the Greek manuscripts, which came from Antioch, must be good and the ones that came from Alexandria and Rome must be bad. This is some kind of geographical prejudice. This is like saying, “Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?” Yet Christ did come from there. God does bring good things out of bad places. He brought Christ from Egypt when He was two years old. He brought Israel out of Egypt. There is no teaching in the Bible that God only brings good things from certain geographical locations.

Ruckman tries to make people believe all the heretics came from Alexandria and Rome while all the good guys came from Antioch. (CHRISTIAN HANDBOOK, p. 56-76) Yet you know that in every section within our country today, you have some of God’s people and you have the cults and some in-between. Every big city has good people and bad. It has true believers and heretics. It has always been this way and it always will be. For anyone to say all the heretics were in Alexandria and Rome and all the Bible believers were in Antioch, defies all common sense. You do not have to be a church historian to know this. All you need is a brain. Just look around and tell me one place, which has all good or all bad.

Church history shows that Antioch, Rome and Alexandria each had Bible believers and heretics, just like every other place.

The reason why most scholars believe the Alexandrian and Vatican manuscripts are good is because they are older. Which means they were copied less. When the originals were written, a copy was made. Then a copy of the copy was made. Then a copy of the last copy was made, and so on. Errors occurred during this process. The manuscripts, which came from Alexandria and Rome, go back so far they could have been copied directly from the originals. We don’t know that they were, but certainly they were copied less times than the much later manuscripts used for the Textus Receptus, from which we get the KJV.

In other words, the Alexandrian Manuscripts are the oldest, while only later manuscripts support the Textus Receptus text. The argument against the early manuscripts by the KJV Only cult is they are weak on the deity of Christ. We showed in chapter three that this is not true. The NIV, translated from these manuscripts, is stronger on the deity of Christ than the KJV translated from the later manuscripts.

Westcott And Hort

B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort are the main scholars the KJV Only advocates love to hate. Gail Riplinger and others have misquoted and misinterpreted what they said. They even quote W.W. Westcott and attribute it to the scholar B.F. Westcott. Riplinger and others quote B.F. Westcott’s son when he said his father had investigated spiritualism. They use this against Westcott. They fail to give the conclusion his son wrote, “such investigations led to no good.” Dr. Stewart Custer in his book, THE KING JAMES CONTROVERSY, gives three pages of quotes from the books of Westcott and Hort showing conclusively they were Christians and Bible believing scholars. He shows they believed the Bible was the Word of God. They believed in the deity of Christ; the virgin birth; the blood atonement; that personal faith in Christ is what saves; Christ is the creator and Lord of all; His one sacrifice is complete and sufficient, etc.

If one wants to continue to believe Westcott and Hort were apostates, that is up to them. However, the facts show Westcott and Hort were Bible believing Christians. Yes, they believed in sprinkling babies and in other rituals of the Church of England. But remember, the KJV translators were members of the same church and believed the same doctrines as Westcott and Hort. If the KJV translators did not believe what the church of England stood for, they were hypocrites to remain in it. So many people brag about the King James translators being so smart and knowledgeable. If they were so smart, why did they belong to the Church of England? Why were they not Baptist? The Fact is, King James and the Church of England hated Baptists.

Anti-Baptist KJV

It is well known that King James hated Baptists. He said he wanted to “harrow out of England” all Baptists. The King James Version was rejected by Baptists when it first came out. When the Baptists first came to America, they brought the Geneva Bible, not the KJV. In fact, some of the first Baptists to arrive here had been run out of England by King James.

King James, in 1612, imprisoned a Baptist preacher named Thomas Helwys for a tract he had written opposing the state church (Church of England).

John Bunyan, a Baptist and author of PILGRIMS PROGRESS, spent many years in the Bedford prison because of persecution from the Church of England (which King James and the KJV translators were part of).

In the early days of this country, when the Anglican church (Church of England) was the state church in Virginia, they persecuted, imprisoned and beat many Baptists. Thomas Jefferson, the second governor of the state, made religious persecution illegal. But when they had the power, the Church of England and King James hated and persecuted Baptists. Yet today, many Baptists want to idolize this Baptist hating king.

The KJV translators, when they presented their new translation to the King, said he was as “the sun shining in its strength.” (Dedicatory To The Most High and Mighty Prince, James. Page 1 of the 1611 KJV) Of course, this expression in the Bible refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. Many people today, like the KJV translators, would exalt King James to a place he could never deserve.

Pro Catholic

A heavy Catholic influence was exhibited in the KJV from the time of Erasmus, a Roman Catholic who compiled the Greek text. The reason he put I John 5:7 in his Greek text was because the Catholic church threatened to excommunicate him if he didn’t. This verse is found in only two late Greek manuscripts. It is not found in the Majority text. Erasmus knew it did not belong in his Greek text. But the worst thing to a Catholic is ex-communication, so he put it in. He also put in other verses from the Latin Roman Catholic Bible.

The Church of England was started by Henry VIII because he wanted to divorce and re-marry. Catholics do not allow this, so King Henry left the Catholic church and started the Church of England. He made it the state church. Of course, his church was patterned after the Catholic church. Remember most of the KJV translators were members of the Church of England. This is why they have a page for a holy day in front of the 1611 KJV dedicated to the “blessed Virgin.”(see appendix C) This is the reason they refused to translate the Greek words for “baptism” and “deacon.” They transliterated them. This means they just spelled them out in English. If they had translated them, it would have conflicted with their practice of sprinkling instead of baptism. “Deacon” would have to be translated as “servant” instead of the high office as the Catholics and Church of England practice it. It seems the great KJV translators were cowards and chose to bow to King James instead of doing what they knew was right.

The fact that the 1611 KJV contained the Roman Catholic Apocrypha is undeniable proof of Catholic influence. No truly Protestant or Baptist version of the Bible would contain this abomination.
 
H

Huckleberry

Guest
#2
Good article.

I love the KJV, it's what I read.
If it is so flawed, what it better?
The Sinaiticus and Vaticanus texts are dubious at best,
so the translations that they influenced cannot be trusted.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#3
Good article.

I love the KJV, it's what I read.
If it is so flawed, what it better?
The Sinaiticus and Vaticanus texts are dubious at best,
so the translations that they influenced cannot be trusted.
Its hard to have a discussion when no proof is offered. Can you give some examples of the dubiousness in those codices, show where those errors are in translations, and most of all, what you are comparing those codices to.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,138
218
63
#4
My KJV Bible does not contain the Apocrypha.

I wonder why the KJV causes so much controversy.... It may be small and subtle but somewhere, someone is against it.

Considering the events surrounding the KJV, i would not be surprised if it does not all come down to dark forces wanting to discredit that which they could not prevent being published.

Consider the times in which these things came to pass; if it is true it may of been to appease.
 
H

Huckleberry

Guest
#5
Its hard to have a discussion when no proof is offered. Can you give some examples of the dubiousness in those codices, show where those errors are in translations, and most of all, what you are comparing those codices to.
Proof?
Tell you what, you study up on those texts and get back to me.
I mean study, not read a Wikipedia page.

And the comparison is to the Textus Receptus.
The majority texts.
The body of manuscripts that most consistently agree
with each other and that the KJV was translated from.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#6
Proof?
Tell you what, you study up on those texts and get back to me.
I mean study, not read a Wikipedia page.
Does the ad hominem really have to begin already? Huckleberry, you have absolutely no idea about how much or how little I have read on the subject. I will say, however, that I have read arguments from both sides, and certainly do not base my views on Wikipedia.

I did not make the assertion that Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are suspect. You did. I'm not going to do you the disservice of guessing what arguments you would make, or what evidence you would offer. No doubt you personally have reasons for your position on the subject - let's hear them. Even one would be a good place to start a discussion :)

And the comparison is to the Textus Receptus.
The majority texts.
The body of manuscripts that most consistently agree
with each other and that the KJV was translated from.
Of course, you'll be aware that the majority text and the TR are not necessarily the same thing, so it might be helpful for you to clarify what you mean. 1 John 5:7 being a case in point - it is not in the majority of manuscripts, and indeed Erasmus didn't include it in the first two editions of the TR, but it made it in anyway.

But ignoring that, it's clear we have a philosophical difference on how to approach the MSS. On the one hand, you are saying which ever reading is most attested, regardless of when those manuscripts were written, is the most legitimate. I would argue that it is also important when those manuscripts were written. As an analogy of why I take my view, I tell Jimmy "Mangoes are fruit." Jimmy tells his friend "Mangoes are vegetables." His friend tells all his other friends what he heard accurately, that is, "Mangoes are vegetables." The majority state "Mangoes are vegetables". Does that make them right? Is truth determined by the majority?

I'll also point, however, that the differences between the critical text, the majority text, and the TR are miniscule (no pun intended). We're talking a couple of percent difference, with the most significant variants (and they are not THAT significant, mainly 1 John and long Mark) able to be counted on one hand. Out of thousands of manuscripts. So you'll have to show me why the errors are so significant that anything other than the KJV cannot be trusted, taking the rest of what I've posted into account.
 
H

Huckleberry

Guest
#7
Does the ad hominem really have to begin already? Huckleberry, you have absolutely no idea about how much or how little I have read on the subject. I will say, however, that I have read arguments from both sides, and certainly do not base my views on Wikipedia.

I did not make the assertion that Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are suspect. You did. I'm not going to do you the disservice of guessing what arguments you would make, or what evidence you would offer. No doubt you personally have reasons for your position on the subject - let's hear them. Even one would be a good place to start a discussion :)
You are absolutely right, I have no idea how much or how little you've read on the subject.
My apologies for the snarky attitude.

Not being able to read, speak, or understand the Greek language,
and the fact that I will never have access to the manuscripts themselves,
I cannot offer "proof" of anything. I can only argue from the findings of others.

The supposed corruptions of the Siniaticus and Vaticanus texts are numerous,
not to mention that they were copied selectively.

Can you offer proof that the manuscripts are reliable?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#8
You are absolutely right, I have no idea how much or how little you've read on the subject.
My apologies for the snarky attitude.
Not a problem at all. Really, I wasn't offended, but it's just those kind of remarks can actually get in the way of fruitful, edifying discussion. FWIW, apology accepted, and I really appreciate your good-natured response. :)

Not being able to read, speak, or understand the Greek language,
and the fact that I will never have access to the manuscripts themselves,
I cannot offer "proof" of anything. I can only argue from the findings of others.
Even if you were able to cite specific findings by others, that would be good. It's fine to say the texts are corrupted, but if you can also provide specific examples where that is so (even if you're quoting what other people are saying), that makes it easier to zero in on the facts of the problem, rather than generalisations that may be true or may be false.

The supposed corruptions of the Siniaticus and Vaticanus texts are numerous,
not to mention that they were copied selectively.
Can you state why they were copied selectively, and what you mean by selectively?

Can you offer proof that the manuscripts are reliable?
The manuscripts are reliable (or perhaps rather than 'reliable', we should use the phrase, 'carry most weight in arguments of reliability', for reasons I will come to in a moment) mostly for two reasons: the age of the codices themselves (4th century), and the fact that they are complete - that is, they contain the beginnings and ends of books, and contain all books of the Bible (regardless of whether it contains 100% of the text of those books in the middle, or whether the text itself ultimately stands up to textual critique)

Bible translators do not rely solely on those two codices. There are other codices that are consulted, not to mention the host of other manuscripts, many earlier than Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. In many cases, the earlier texts confirm the reading of S or V. The vast majority of the time, the critical reading, S + V, and the majority texts are in agreement.

There is no one text that is one hundred percent reliable bar the originals, which we do not have. However, there is a surprising consistency for documents of antiquity, and the vast majority of errors are spelling mistakes, easily noticed confused words, or absent repeated emphatic remarks. Again, there are only a handful of instances, long Mark and the explicitly trinitarian 1 John 5:7 chief among them, where the differences matters at any level.
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
#9
The Kjv only side only has is ad hominun on their side. If you take the ad hominun attacks away and stick to the facts they have nothing but false accusations.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#10
The Kjv only side only has is ad hominun on their side. If you take the ad hominun attacks away and stick to the facts they have nothing but false accusations.
Not helpful. We're having a good discussion here right now. No need for that.
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
#11
Not helpful. We're having a good discussion here right now. No need for that.
Ok I can agree with that. Most new versions I have seen are based on the nestle aland 27. The nestle aland is utilizes all mss. available. It also gives textual variants in footnote. Saying they are all alluah or B is just not true. .
 
H

Huckleberry

Guest
#12
Not a problem at all. Really, I wasn't offended, but it's just those kind of remarks can actually get in the way of fruitful, edifying discussion. FWIW, apology accepted, and I really appreciate your good-natured response. :)
We're good, and it's obvious to me that you have more knowledge than I do concerning this entire subject.


Even if you were able to cite specific findings by others, that would be good. It's fine to say the texts are corrupted, but if you can also provide specific examples where that is so (even if you're quoting what other people are saying), that makes it easier to zero in on the facts of the problem, rather than generalisations that may be true or may be false.
Let's take the Sinaiticus first.

It's reputation is dubious from its alleged discovery in a monastery garbage dump by
Tuschendorf, then pieced together by him over numerous visits to that monastery.

It has been corrected and re-corrected by its original scribe or scribes,
as well as several others throughout the centuries.
It has literally thousands of corrections,
and most of the pages contain them.
This seems to be irrefutable.

If somebody took my KJB, crossed out words, corrected them to their liking,
and this was done by several people, I would consider it corrupted and unreliable.
I would toss it in the trash and get a new one.
Purportedly the monks did just that.
The mystery here seems to be, why would they trash a possibly 1200 year old book?
Maybe that whole narrative is bogus and Tuschendorf stole it?

Can you state why they were copied selectively, and what you mean by selectively?
Maybe "selectively" is the wrong characterization.
It seems there are three possibilities.
There are several hundred instances of seemingly missing text.
Either the scribes bosses didn't like what was written, and so ordered it omitted,
or the scribes themselves considered it irrelevant and/or redundant, and so therefore omitted it,
or, it was never in the original manuscripts to begin with.
If any of those are factual, either the Sinaiticus or the Textus Receptus is at least partially unreliable.
There are ultimately thousands of differences between the KJV and all modern translations.
I believe this is very significant.


The manuscripts are reliable (or perhaps rather than 'reliable', we should use the phrase, 'carry most weight in arguments of reliability', for reasons I will come to in a moment) mostly for two reasons: the age of the codices themselves (4th century), and the fact that they are complete - that is, they contain the beginnings and ends of books, and contain all books of the Bible (regardless of whether it contains 100% of the text of those books in the middle, or whether the text itself ultimately stands up to textual critique)
The Sinaiticus does not include all of the Old Testament.
I got that directly from Codex Sinaiticus - Content


Bible translators do not rely solely on those two codices. There are other codices that are consulted, not to mention the host of other manuscripts, many earlier than Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. In many cases, the earlier texts confirm the reading of S or V. The vast majority of the time, the critical reading, S + V, and the majority texts are in agreement.
No doubt. And as you must certainly know,
the KJV translators relied on (or at least compared)
prior English translations for guidance in their work.
Smart move on their part, I say.
I say I'm KJV only, but I have been known to occasionally crack open
a modern version to help me gain clarity on a given obscure passage.
But I use the KJV as my Final Authority

There is no one text that is one hundred percent reliable bar the originals, which we do not have. However, there is a surprising consistency for documents of antiquity, and the vast majority of errors are spelling mistakes, easily noticed confused words, or absent repeated emphatic remarks. Again, there are only a handful of instances, long Mark and the explicitly trinitarian 1 John 5:7 chief among them, where the differences matters at any level.
So one is right and one is wrong. It matters which is which.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#13
Let's take the Sinaiticus first.

It's reputation is dubious from its alleged discovery in a monastery garbage dump by
Tuschendorf, then pieced together by him over numerous visits to that monastery.
Ignoring for a moment that being found in a waste paper basket doesn't really say this or that about about whether the text is valuable or not (that Tischendorf saved it at all surely shows that it is), the vellum and writing on them have been paleographically dated to the 4th century. Are you suggesting that Tischendorf rewrote the text that he found? If not, what are you insinuating by the remark that he pieced the pieces together?


It has been corrected and re-corrected by its original scribe or scribes,
as well as several others throughout the centuries.
It has literally thousands of corrections,
and most of the pages contain them.
This seems to be irrefutable.
You can go and read them all on the CS online, if you like. But the fact remains - it's pretty easy to see what was corrected, and in what order. Obviously people don't use the corrections just because they're in the Sinaiticus. Believe it or not, it's actually possible to determine the original writing on the page, and where it's not, other readings are prefered. Simple.

If somebody took my KJB, crossed out words, corrected them to their liking,
and this was done by several people, I would consider it corrupted and unreliable.
I would toss it in the trash and get a new one.
But that's precisely what happened with the KJV. Erasmus used multiple texts to write the TR. The multiple texts were used by multiple scribes. That's basically the same as writing corrections into the text, and then just printing out a version with just the corrections, and without the original notes. Your argument at this point begs the question, because you have to assume the KJV is the default and 'correct' text in order to prove that it is. However, if you recognise that this isn't the case, that the KJV itself was essentially formed out of corrections and a multiude of scribes and texts (which isn't in itself wrong), then you can see the flaw in your argument.

Purportedly the monks did just that.
The mystery here seems to be, why would they trash a possibly 1200 year old book?
Maybe that whole narrative is bogus and Tuschendorf stole it?
You'd be surprised how much this kind of thing happens in archaeology. The Dead Sea Scrolls were found by shepherds who hung them on poles around their camp, before taking them to various market salesman and selling them for a pittance. The reality is, when ordinary people find old things, they usually don't know what to do with them. The fact that Tischendorf recognised them for what they are and did something immediately, however, should clue us in that for someone who knew what they were looking for, they held value. Obviously, the monks had no idea the Codex was well over 1000 years old until after the fact. Why would a monk have any use for an old book which they couldn't read?

Maybe "selectively" is the wrong characterization.
It seems there are three possibilities.
There are several hundred instances of seemingly missing text.
Either the scribes bosses didn't like what was written, and so ordered it omitted,
or the scribes themselves considered it irrelevant and/or redundant, and so therefore omitted it,
or, it was never in the original manuscripts to begin with.
If any of those are factual, either the Sinaiticus or the Textus Receptus is at least partially unreliable.
Correct. Obviously, I lean towards the third option. I'll also flag that the inverse of all three possibilities is equally true for additions to the text.

There are ultimately thousands of differences between the KJV and all modern translations.
I believe this is very significant.
Apart from translation, you mean? I think that's overkill. There might be 1 or 2 thousand variant readings between the TR/KJV and the critical text/modern translations, but almost all of those are incredibly minor. This is out of however many hundreds upon thousands of words there are in the Bible. For my sake, cna you spell out specific instances where this is very significant, based on your comparative reading of the KJV and, by way of example, the NASB?



The Sinaiticus does not include all of the Old Testament.
I got that directly from Codex Sinaiticus - Content
Point conceded. It's less important that Sinaiticus has the Old Testament complete, because we already have earlier witnesses to the OT text, and in Hebrew, than it. But good pick up.



No doubt. And as you must certainly know,
the KJV translators relied on (or at least compared)
prior English translations for guidance in their work.
Smart move on their part, I say.
I say I'm KJV only, but I have been known to occasionally crack open
a modern version to help me gain clarity on a given obscure passage.
But I use the KJV as my Final Authority.
Well, modern translations give reference to other translations in their work as well. But that isn't the final arbiter, obviously. The final arbiter has to be the most authentic texts in the original languages. Other translations can only give you insight into how other people translated the same passages.

If you want to use a KJV, all power to you. It's the KJV Only position that I take issue with. I'd question why the KJV earns the position of final authority, but it's not going to cause harm if you do, IMHO.

So one is right and one is wrong. It matters which is which.
It depends on what you mean by right and wrong. No doctrine of the faith is especially effected by the differences. Individual verses might be right or wrong, but the number of them is so tiny it barely impinges on the unified witness of the text.

However, to deal with the point of the question, I believe 1 John 5:7 'extra' does not belong in the Bible. Long Mark has a better case for it, but that too, I believe, is not part of what Mark wrote, although it may have been added not long after.
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
48
#14
Well the kj is a source for well.translated literature but i study with many bibles i even hold a parralel bible to say even though some translations are.not very acurate we must use every source to study well one source allways has been Good is the Holy Ghost he will guide you give discernment to the truth but i do preffer the kjv but study with multiple tranzlation i e en hold copies of rectus and vaticanus and many books , study to show thyself aproved but without the Holy Ghost to direct you all is like a blind man . Not familiar with his surroundings
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#15
KJV-onlyists not only lie, but also exploit workers.. They do this by hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. They rob our homes, pillage or treasure, rape our women, defile our temples, sow salt in our fields, and burn our lands!

 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
48
#16
KJV-onlyists not only lie, but also exploit workers.. They do this by hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. They rob our homes, pillage or treasure, rape our women, defile our temples, sow salt in our fields, and burn our lands!

By doing this when we get caught in these disputes we are in error but.the kjv is the best but i urge that all bibles are used also the studiss must be acurately but by promoting such untastefully delivered opinions you become an agent of the devil unaware of it let the gospel be truth not washed down m or compromised it will offend for the word ,convicts so it will offend or correct depending the offspring that you are but that is entirely up to you
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
#17
KJV-onlyists not only lie, but also exploit workers..


Actually it is the Alexandrian stuffed shirts that lie and they constantantly lie.


Here is a good book by Pastor Peter S. Ruckman, that I recommend for Chrsitians to read who want to know the truth.



0.jpg



A real good book. One of the best I have read on exposing the Alexandrian Cult and the professional LIARS behind it.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,557
497
83
#18
The only way in understanding and living in truth is from God the creator of all. We have written words recorded, by the disciples and scribes of those disciples. translated down through the years, and none are inerrant except for the original written text, written by God through those disciples.
Now down and throughout the years, there have been mistranslations to lead people into working for God in the energy of their own flesh, feeling either boastful, proud and or arrogant as in being self-righteous, or being so guilty, in being down and out, not ever seeing the Mercy and Love from God the Father through the Son, Jesus Christ
Because man has done a great Job in adding works to Faith. And man by this can't see the forest through the trees.
When in all truth it is God and not man. God either gets all the credit and the believer takes no credit, or man flesh is still in the way of the truth that sets one free.
This is only revealed by God in the Spirit of God. And any translation will do, for God will and does reveal the truth to those that God has accepted.
Maybe we need to cry for Mercy from God, and stop trying to be righteous in and of self as if God will, be pleased by ones flesh efforts. when no flesh will ever please god, except the Son Jesus Christ, that has past tense already done this.
You decide, I know who to trust, and that is the creator of all, through son, who by Son made me perfect in his Father's sight forever. Now my response is thank you Father, trusting Father in the power of the Holy Spirit to do all the leading, teaching me and all that believe to walk as Christ the Son walked
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,557
497
83
#19
No matter what, flesh is the liar, period. And the Spirit of God is the truth, period, o matter what version one reads, truth is there to be revealed by God tom his accepted Children, who have cried out for Mercy.
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
#20


Actually it is the Alexandrian stuffed shirts that lie and they constantantly lie.


Here is a good book by Pastor Peter S. Ruckman, that I recommend for Chrsitians to read who want to know the truth.





A real good book. One of the best I have read on exposing the Alexandrian Cult and the professional LIARS behind it.
You say Alexandrian mss are corupt. Do you care to prove this? You can not use the TR and the king james as the standard. Prove the people that use Alexandrian are liars? Making general comments just don't work.