I take it then that you won't be looking into these Scriptures to show yourself approved in handling
the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), and so I won't be getting from you a reconciliation of them to your post.
Well enough. . .
What Laws are still valid to christians
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the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), and so I won't be getting from you a reconciliation of them to your post.
Well enough. . .
If you have a viewpoint you should use scripture to reinforce what you state.
Agreed. Context is good too
.Jesus preached the Law to those under the Law. He magnified it - He absolutely buried them under Law. Not only do not commit adultery, but don't even LOOK at another with lust. Actions AND intents. Keeping Law was not enough; there had to be a new heart; a New Creation. Something that was still to come in Him.
And it would be BETTER than what the Old Covenant had to offer! \o/
No. That quote is from Matthew 23, before the Crucifixion. After the Cross, God's commandments are thus:
1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
In my opinion, the 'Rock' is not Peter, but the Truth that had been revealed to Peter.
As for Peter following the Law, yeah - only until Paul rebuked him for doing so:
Galatians 2:11-16
11 But when Cephas [Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
-JGIG
Paul gives account of rebuking Peter for Law-keeping in his letter to the Galatians. Based on the dates of the writing of the Acts and the letter to the Galatians, it's a good bet that Peter had come fully in to Grace by the time of the Jerusalem Council; hence his quote.
-JGIG
I think many peop[le miss what is really going on in Acts 15... becasue Shaul said things like this, he would have to rebuke himself...
Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."
Romans 3:31, "31 Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
You're making a leap from Paul proclaiming the proper use of the Law to Old Covenant Law-keeping for those in Christ. That's not a leap supported by contextual Scriptures.
We who are in Christ have died to the Law in order to be joined to Another to be able to bear fruit unto God (Rom. 7).
-JGIG
Romans 7 is all about being dead to sin not the Instructions of the Creator...
Romans 7:7, "What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."
"12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."
"14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."
The parable of a womans husband dying...yeah, its about the old person being "married: tio sin, and once they accept Messiah and are changed they are married to a new one, NOT SIN!
Romans 8:2, "2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death."
Is have no gods in fromntof Yahweh's face and do not steal the law of sin and death?"
NO
Romans 7:7, "What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."
Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers,
and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
But Paul states very specifically that we in Christ are dead to the law of Moses. So what you call Instructions of the Creator to which we are to be alive, cannot possibly be the law of Moses, according to Paul, but must be something entirely different. And Paul makes it clear what that new something is:
But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to that by which we were bound, so that we may serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6
We are dead to sin because we are dead to the law.
But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin is dead. Romans 7:8
I'll not respond to the above; the horse is dead. If you want to keep dragging it around, that is certainly your choice. We've both stated our positions.
That said, the issue of what Christ did/does and on what basis is worth pursuing:
Hebrews 7:20-22
20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, 21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”
22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Yes, an entire New Covenant, one of Grace, the fulfillment of the Promise made to Abraham was put in place.
No. Was the Old Covenant broken? Yes - but that was not the only reason for the New - the New was to bring Life - something the Old could not do.
Elin, consider this carefully:
- The priesthood of the Old Covenant was of the line of Levi.
- Jesus was of the Tribe of Judah.
This is by design, so that Christ was not connected to the Mediation OR Administration of the Old Covenant IN ANY WAY.
Christ was the final Sacrifice of the Old Covenant - but He was not the priest who offered it - He had not yet BECOME a High Priest. He was of the Tribe of Judah. He would NEVER become a high priest of the OLD Covenant. The New Covenant was RATIFIED or 'cut' by the Blood of THE Lamb. One could surmise about the moment that Christ became the Perfect High Priest (whether it was at the actual shedding of His Blood, the Resurrection, or the Ascension), but the Scriptural fact is that the New Priesthood brought about the New Law (Covenant):
Hebrews 7:12-13
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
So you see, Christ could not have officiated (oh boy, we can add that one to 'administrate' and 'mediate') over His own sacrifice. The sacrifice of Christ satisfied the Old Covenant, administered by the Levites, and ushered in the New Covenant, which would be administered/mediated/officiated over by Christ, our Perfect High Priest.
As the Perfect High Priest of the Tribe of Judah, Christ mediates the New Covenant, cut in His own Blood. He did not present Himself to the altar; the priesthood of the Old Covenant which was in place did that. He offered His LIFE, and gave it freely, and prophesied at the Last Supper the New Covenant that would be ratified with His own Blood.
I contend that the Levitical Priesthood of that time DID make Christ the Sacrifice (unwittingly), using the Roman Government as their method of execution of the Lamb of God. They administered the Law's requirements.
Christ could not have legally administered His own Sacrifice; He was of the Tribe of Judah.
Why is this important?
It goes to prove the obsolescence of the Old Covenant. New Priesthood; New Law.
Go back over your list with the above in mind.
- Christ is our Prophet, Priest, and King.
- The Law (Old Covenant) is rendered obsolete by the Work of Christ; it does not have an administrator
- He does not administer law and sacrifice; He administers Grace
- He is not our Judge (those in Christ), but our Brother (Heb 2:11)
The more I read what you write, it becomes clear that I'm not the one who is confused here. You are assigning the duties of the Levitical priesthood to Christ, Who is of the Tribe of Judah.
This is a key issue in the Law and Grace debate. Because if Christ could administer the Old Covenant as a priest, then you have to throw out the entire letter to the Hebrews. Are you prepared to do that?
-JGIG
or...
Verse 7:6 -- Greek apothanontes. Traditionally translated that being dead. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Gingrich and Danker, Page 91, shows this word is correctly translated death penalty.
also for sake of honest debate, if your assessment and translation is right and we look at 40 verses before and 40 verse after it doent seem to be saying what you imply
Romans 7:7-8, "What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandments, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the Law, sin is dead."
So I do agree in the "Spirit" of the Law or true intent, but if there is no Law there is no sin, so it would thus be impossible for any who have accepted the Messiah to sin. Where do you stand on this? It may help me to understand your beliefs.
I believe Messiah has taken on the death penalty for us, but Yahweh's Instructions still stand and breaking them is still sin.
Mosheh didnt make the Law up Yahweh Commanded it...
Malakyah 4:4, "Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."
Step 1 =
Mattithyah 19:17-19, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your father and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-7, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked. Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."
emphasis on LARGE letters...
It's really impossible to have a productive or meaningful conversation with you when you insist on using that deceitful yahweh.com translation (The Book of Yahweh, The Holy Scriptures), that completely misrepresents what the Greek text says and tries to make it look like John was referring to the old laws of Moses, when he was really referring to the word that Christ spoke to them from the beginning - love your neighbor as yourself. Below is what 1 John 2:7 really says.
Brethren, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 1 John 2:7
No wonder you're so deceived. The well you're drinking from is poisoned.
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the translation does a few forgeries IDK one that doesnt have at least errors, but I know them and avoid them, in this case it is correct. Also Yahshua uses the same teminiology to describe Law/Commandments, only in the western gentile mind are a Law or commandment a different thing.
because your translation does not translate it Law doesnt mean the original greek didnt mean it...
the word translated "Commandment" ot "command" in verse 4 and 7 is =
1785. entolé
entolé: an injunction, order, command
Original Word: ἐντολή, ῆς, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: entolé
Phonetic Spelling: (en-tol-ay')
Short Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.
IOt is hard to have a real debate with you when you ignore the fact that what you call "the Law of Mosheh" Yahshua calls the Law of His Father...
Mattithyah 19:17-19, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your father and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
not to mention saying one loves and doesnt keep Yahweh;s Laws is falsehood.
Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."
Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."
K
Kerry
Guest
There is only one law that I can find. Put your trust, faith in Jesus and Him crucified and risen from the dead and the Holy Spirit will produce in you the fruit and or actions that God requires. Is there any other way?
Yahshua is the way the truth and the light.
however=
Yahdah 1:4, "4 For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."
M Y S T E R Y O F I N I Q U I T Y
however=
Yahdah 1:4, "4 For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."
M Y S T E R Y O F I N I Q U I T Y
No. it's not correct at all. I gave in my last post a literal translation from the Greek.
A distinction without a difference. I know the law of Moses is from GOD. The bible itself calls it the law of Moses.
K
Kerry
Guest
Oh, the sin nature, thats a totally different subject. But, since you brought it up. When saved, the sin nature is broken (the power of sin). when you were a sinner, you loved to sin, enjoyed it, rolled in it like pig to slop. But, when you got saved, you hated it. After a while ( it happens to all christians, even if they don't know it, and most don't) we find ourself sinning and failing. what happens is this, we have taken our faith off of the cross and placed into what were are doing (law). God will not accept that. He will only accept what He has provided and that is the cross. When we do this the sin nature is revived in us, for we have no power over sin, only by the cross. Romans 6,7,8 and by the when he says sin, put the definite article "the" in front, as it is in the greek and it makes since.
Also many do invade the church for greed and "filthy lucre". But God will take care of that. Wheat and tares, sheep and goats. If have an ear to hear
Also many do invade the church for greed and "filthy lucre". But God will take care of that. Wheat and tares, sheep and goats. If have an ear to hear
H
Hoffco
Guest
Good morning, good evening to you in the West, HI, The battle between the forces of light and darness is a never ending battle; I just have to walk away from my computer and ,breathe a sign of releaf and praise God for the wonderful trues that Jesus has revealed in the New Testament. I can walk into my church and ,with great confidence and boldness and give my people the uadulterated WORD of GOD , O. & N. T's, as interpreted, fulfilled and expanded by Jesus, the eternal SON od GOD who has forever dwelt in the bosom of the Father, eternally begoten, not made. The eternal truth has been brought to light by by the incarnate, eternal, Son of God.! Most of the hidden trues in the O.T. are cleared up; yet Jesus gives us more mysterys of His second coming, to try to figure out. In my humble opinion,LOL, I think God has given us a great key to understanding the relationship of the O. & the N. t's. in Romans 8:29-30. I have called this: God's Eternal Covenant Of Grace. This covers all of time and all the covenants that God has mediated and administered. Chapters 8-11 covers all of salvation of all times. It is all by GRACE. All that man has been required to do, is by GRACE, only by GRACE, could sinnful man do the laws which God required of us in any and each age. God never changes His overall plan of salvation, Rom.8:28-30, He only administers it different in each age. The steps in God plan of salvation have always been the same: 1. Loved of God 2.elected of God 3. Born of God 4. Justified by God 5. Glorified by God; All by God's grace. None of you have caught onto God's eternal Cov. of GRACE. It would clear up much confusion for all of you. Love to all, Hoffco