The Original Pentecostal Movement

[thecreationtutor]

note:

this thread is to examine what has been called the Original Pentecostal Movement.

this Original Pentecostal Movement, some say, was God-ordained and intended as growth for the church...if i understand the argument correctly.

it needs to be determined what was The Original Pentecostal Movement? - there appear to be varying histories and accounts.

this thread is not for arguments - but for rational; reasonable discussion and fact-finding.

the claims and doctrines of this Original Pentecostal Movement would need to align with what The Bible says.

the goal is to determine if the Original Pentecostal Movement was orthodox in its understanding of the biblical Gospel; and was sound in doctrine generally. and what has it evolved into today, if at all.

the practices and claims, as well as doctrines will hopefully be confirmed by Scripture, and/or by objective verification.

please don't take part if only to drive-by without some substantive contribution.

thank you

Wasn't the original pentacost movement based on 2 brothers who asked "what physical evidence" is there of the Holy Spirit in someones life - all they found was speaking in tongues - and of course hours later they were speaking in tongues - which it seems like that always happens - wouldn't want the originators to not have that gift...

The problem is, that is not the only physical evidence of the Holy Spirit

Second 1 Cor 12:12-13 I believe is probably one of the best scriptures to refute the idea of "second grace" that some Pentecostals believe - full gospel churches I believe. It also refutes any idea that Jewish Christians have some sort of higher privilege than gentile Christians

Peter says that "we are all of a like faith"
Paul says Elijah was a man like us


There is Jewish pentacost and Gentile pentacost in scripture - both bring about the Holy Spirit into play, once for the Jews, and second for the gentiles - read the context b/c the jews didn't believe that the gentiles could be saved by Grace

There are no second class citizens in heaven.

It is easy to doubt our salvation, or that the Holy Spirit works in our lives like the Bible says - the Gap sometimes is unbearable - and weak minded, well meaning Christians err and search for a sign - I also attribute this to Concert Christianity with bands like Hillsong and Jesus Culture, Gateway worship --- While amazing songs - it gives a credence to playing with emotions and sprinkling a bit of Jesus on top.

 

[unclefester]

I use it also, but I'm not a KJV onlyist. David Cloud IS.​ Please don't make excuses for him or you.

No excuses being made ... for anybody. Feel free to correct Mr. Clouds historical narrative of the pentecostal movement and it's keynote players. If you so desire, I'm certain that it wouldn't be too difficult to locate more then a few agreeable historical narratives of the pentecostal movement to that of Mr. Clouds ... by authors, who like you and I, are not KJV only advocates. But your "issue" with Mr. Clouds well-researched and written article on the roots of pentecostalism never was his personal preference and belief in the infallibility of God's Written Word in the KJV bible. Be that as it may, for the purpose of Zone's thread and content, it is Mr. Clouds historical account of pentecostalism that you should challenge ... and reprove ... and not his person or bible translation preference. You did, after all, just admit to using the very same version yourself.

 

[RickShafer]

One realization that every sober minded person gets while reading these threads is who is sane and who is nuts.
I want to personally thank the opposition to the continuation of the Holy Spirit gifts as sounding nuts.
- Thank You! - You couldn't have done it better,(or worse) A heart felt hearty thanks!

 

[SarahM777]

One realization that every sober minded person gets while reading these threads is who is sane and who is nuts.
I want to personally thank the opposition to the continuation of the Holy Spirit gifts as sounding nuts.
- Thank You! - You couldn't have done it better,(or worse) A heart felt hearty thanks!

What's happened to you Rick? You're not the same person you were less than a year ago.

 

[cfultz3]

Hmmmm....I was going to enjoy learning something.....now, it is bickering.....oh well...I will move on

 

[RickShafer]

For a refresher, for those that came in late, or newbies that do not understand concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Let me reiterate the solid ground on which the gospel is laid.
1. The gifts of the Holy Spirit were poured out upon all flesh as was prophesied in Joel 2:28 - "And it shall come to pass afterward(after what?- His departure) that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions." on the day of pentecost.(Acts 2)
2. The effect of the Holy Spirit is to confirm the saints to Himself after He has departed, and minister to them. - Jesus told His disciples shortly before He departed this earth that He would send them a comforter:
John 16:7-15
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
3. So now, after the killing, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ - 50 days after the ascension - His followers were in one place hiding. Acts 2:

2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
[SUP]31 [/SUP]He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
4. So now, the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all flesh. (or as many as were chosen to be saved), and it works in the lives of both the apostles and the bishops. (See Stephen)
And throughout the book of Acts there are souls being filled with the Spirit.
The Apostle Paul, who wrote half the books of the New Testament said he spoke in tongues "more than them all" -I Cor.14:18
Also, there were gifts given to the church through the same Holy Spirit : I Corinthians 12
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the body is not one member, but many.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if they were all one member, where were the body?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now are they many members, yet but one body.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Cont......

 

[zone]

Brief History of the Assemblies of God

The Pentecostal Revival

One of the focal points of the emerging Pentecostal movement was known as the Azusa Street revival (1906-09). It was an unlikely location for an event that would change the face of Christianity. In the summer of 1906, revival erupted in the newly-formed congregation meeting at the small, run-down Apostolic Faith Mission at 312 Azusa Street in Los Angeles, California. Critics attacked the congregation because its mild-mannered African-American Holiness preacher, William J. Seymour, preached racial reconciliation and the restoration of biblical spiritual gifts. The revival soon became a local sensation, then attracted thousands of curiosity seekers and pilgrims from around the world.

History of the Assemblies of God

well that's helpful...

so: History - restoration of biblical spiritual gifts.

okay.
second blessing; tongues; restoration of gifts; (perfectionism?) c.1900.

 

[zone]

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So, you say this has happened.
And on top of that, you claim the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped.
- So not only do you claim that you know.....(not only yourself)....BUT GOD HIMSELF as He is right now!
What? - That is what you the scripture claims.
Unless you say,....."No, it only means that I (through the Word) see the gospel and so know I see (as it were), 'face to face'.

hi rick.
trying not to make this a prove or disprove continuation or cessation thread.
thanks again.

just looking to define core commonly approved pentecostal history and leaders..maybe doctrines.

 

[Stephen63]

Just as I thought would happen. The entire thread is just smoke screens for attacking Pentecostal Beliefs and nothing more and nothing less. I find it boring that whenever this topic is brought up, we only discuss Speaking in Tongues and nothing else.

I find it very funny that those who believe in cessation and the non full Gospel and have zero experience and closed minds to the Full Gospel always seem to be the ones that try to convince those that do believe in the full Gospel how it all should work or does not work.

Do us heathens a favor, and stop trying to save us from ourselves. We are perfectly fine and understand we have some bad seeds in our own camp and we can discern for ourselves the bad seeds without all your expertise on the subject, which would be a big fat GOOSE EGG.

They won't stop. The Bible tells them to dust off their feet as a testimony against those who won't hear them, & instead they verbally throw rocks at us. It's obvious that their fruits are wrong, but the only ones who can't see it is them. And different fruit means different motives..... & not good ones.

 

[RickShafer]

Continued from the the last chapter:

Corinthians 13:
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


So, reading the script what do we learn?
First we only know in part rightNow, (remember, the one saying that is the Apostle who wrote half the books of the New Testament)
- - But right after he says THEN that which is in part shall be done away.(Who is we? This is the man who is writing the Holy Scripture, - RIGHT NOW - AT THAT PRESENT TIME WHEN HE SAID "FOR NOW WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY, BUT THEN FACE TO FACE - What? But When? This is the man writing that which is perfect according to those who claim the gifts are ended because of his perfect writ, yet the very man said that even at that time he only knew in part.
- And then he says this: "then shall I know even as I am known."


So what do we see?
1. We see the apostle addressing the gifts in chapter 12
2. We see an attention stressed to Agape love in chapter 13
3. We see the apostle who was sent to the gentiles-(world) stressing the life of a christian as giving.
4. Then, (this is the most remarkable thing) he refers to prophecy and tongues and knowledge( three gifts to the church)
as fallible - because mankind is, which is the instrument through which those gifts come. pointing out that now, at this present time: when we are alive in our bodies we are fallible, we don't know everything, we see but through a dark glass, we don't know, even the prophet doesn't know, tongues will cease, prophecies will fail, and knowledge will vanish.
- -SO ALL THOSE GIFTS ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO THE LOVE OF GOD.
Then Paul even compares faith and hope to the love of God!
5. What does he say? That Love never fails, (because it is solely Agape!!!! God's)
It is not dependent on mankind as faith is....It is not dependent on the whims of human souls as hope is....Love is God's alone. - "For He so loved the world that made a man out of Himself to be butchered for us."

This is the meaning of these passages of scripture, the gifts are in full effect.
- Yet through earthen vessels.
Why? Because God never left His own alone.
That's why He sent the Comforter; and that is why It, (and the gifts that accompany It); are here today.
- - We still see through a glass darkly.
- - - We will not know as we are known until we see Him face to face.

 

[Stephen63]

??

i'm trying to keep the number of histories to a minimum (for something to work with) until you provide the official history.
it's your opinion of the origin of the Pentecostal Movement i was interested in.
you know that.

in the meantime, we'll work with what we have.
if you're not interested in just providing sources you approve of, just say so stephen.

About those histories of yours:
1. Who would believe The New York Times? Only those that don't believe in the Illuminati.
2. Why would we believe a Lutheran pastor who is a dye-in-the-wool Lutheran? You really expect us to just accept that his article isn't tainted, to say the least?
3. Why would we believe David Cloud, who is a KJV onlyist....... anyone who believes that doctrine is immature, & not deep enough in the Word to prove their own dogma, let alone have the right to attack someone's elses.

Speaking of that Lexington, Ky Lutheran pastor, I dug this up 15 minutes after I read Stilly's post........I just waited for the right time to show it.......
Fayette County, Kentucky Psychics Vendors

Bucher Rev DR Richard P - Psychics in Kentucky Lexington

Then there's this one about Rev Bucher teaching about infant baptism, where he states:

"Furthermore, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; he who believes not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). According to Jesus, ANYONE who does not believe in Him will be damned. Jesus makes no exception for infants. Babies will not be saved without faith in Jesus. Parents who think they are placing their children under God's grace by "dedicating" them are deceiving themselves. The only dedication that the New Testament knows of is the "dedication" that take place via baptism. That is why infants should be baptized. Like everyone else, they desperately need forgiveness. If infants die before they believe in Jesus, they will be eternally condemned."
Five Pint Lutheran: The Case for Infant Baptism

I seriously don't know how a psychic that is a Luthern pastor & teaches that unbaptized babies are going to Hell is considered a credible witness for Christ let alone a Christian historian!

 

[RickyZ]

hello ricky.
how are you? well i hope.

no, if you've read through the posts, the Day of Pentecost and the subsequent event of Acts 10 involving the blessing falling on the gentiles is not the subject of this thread.

i'm aware of those, most are - we have our bibles and can read.

The Pentecostal Movement is the subject.

I am well, thank you, I hope you are the same. I'm still praying for that miracle moment...

If you're looking for a world history of the "movement" I can't help you. Nor would I care to, I'm not that into the cerebral stuff like you are. All I know is that the Holy Spirit started to move among the people at Pentecost, and will continue to move among us until Jesus returns. That's the Pentecostal movement I know about.

I implore you two to search the scriptures.

Oh they have Rick, and like the Synagogue Rulers of old they use them to make eloquent teachings about things they know not of. Dangerous teachings. Teachings that hinder others in their walk, and cast doubt upon the faithful gifts of God. Teachings that demand worldly compliance of spiritual things. Teachings that attribute miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit to, well, not the Holy Spirit.

Oh you penguins...

Forget the movement in your head! Make faithful the movement through your spirit and your hands! Learning you have so much of, understanding so very little. I pray, I pray the Holy Spirit change that.

But then, that requires you to believe He can, doesn't it?

 

[SarahM777]

Mere words.
Please, to revive is to refresh.
To bring back fervor?
To bring back fire?
To refresh?
It is a word describing a certain happening.

Name when the gifts ceased, or when the AoG or Pentecostal Movement said the gifts ceased?

Agreed,it is playing word games when all those words all point to something changing after Pentecost and the time when one has to use those words that all point to a change of what is. So what did change Rick? Why would one have to use those words if it always was the same from the time of Pentecost?

 

[SarahM777]

Just as I thought would happen. The entire thread is just smoke screens for attacking Pentecostal Beliefs and nothing more and nothing less. I find it boring that whenever this topic is brought up, we only discuss Speaking in Tongues and nothing else.

I find it very funny that those who believe in cessation and the non full Gospel and have zero experience and closed minds to the Full Gospel always seem to be the ones that try to convince those that do believe in the full Gospel how it all should work or does not work.

Do us heathens a favor, and stop trying to save us from ourselves. We are perfectly fine and understand we have some bad seeds in our own camp and we can discern for ourselves the bad seeds without all your expertise on the subject, which would be a big fat GOOSE EGG.

If you know that are bad seeds then why so much continued silence about these men and women that claim to be of God? Where are the watchmen from the very denominations that claim to have the gifts of the spirit why are they so SILENT about these things? How many of the people here within CC see these men and women as being of God yet the very ones who claim to have the gifts are so silent and not sounding the warning? Where is the love in Christ in that knowing what is to come for those who continue to listen to false prophets and teachers?

 

[RickShafer]

Continued from the the last chapter:

Corinthians 13:
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


So, reading the script what do we learn?
First we only know in part rightNow, (remember, the one saying that is the Apostle who wrote half the books of the New Testament)
- - But right after he says THEN that which is in part shall be done away.(Who is we? This is the man who is writing the Holy Scripture, - RIGHT NOW - AT THAT PRESENT TIME WHEN HE SAID "FOR NOW WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY, BUT THEN FACE TO FACE - What? But When? This is the man writing that which is perfect according to those who claim the gifts are ended because of his perfect writ, yet the very man said that even at that time he only knew in part.
- And then he says this: "then shall I know even as I am known."


So what do we see?
1. We see the apostle addressing the gifts in chapter 12
2. We see an attention stressed to Agape love in chapter 13
3. We see the apostle who was sent to the gentiles-(world) stressing the life of a christian as giving.
4. Then, (this is the most remarkable thing) he refers to prophecy and tongues and knowledge( three gifts to the church)
as fallible - because mankind is, which is the instrument through which those gifts come. pointing out that now, at this present time: when we are alive in our bodies we are fallible, we don't know everything, we see but through a dark glass, we don't know, even the prophet doesn't know, tongues will cease, prophecies will fail, and knowledge will vanish.
- -SO ALL THOSE GIFTS ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO THE LOVE OF GOD.
Then Paul even compares faith and hope to the love of God!
5. What does he say? That Love never fails, (because it is solely Agape!!!! God's)
It is not dependent on mankind as faith is....It is not dependent on the whims of human souls as hope is....Love is God's alone. - "For He so loved the world that made a man out of Himself to be butchered for us."

This is the meaning of these passages of scripture, the gifts are in full effect.
- Yet through earthen vessels.
Why? Because God never left His own alone.
That's why He sent the Comforter; and that is why It, (and the gifts that accompany It); are here today.
- - We still see through a glass darkly.
- - - We will not know as we are known until we see Him face to face.

 

[SarahM777]

Just as I thought would happen. The entire thread is just smoke screens for attacking Pentecostal Beliefs and nothing more and nothing less. I find it boring that whenever this topic is brought up, we only discuss Speaking in Tongues and nothing else.

I find it very funny that those who believe in cessation and the non full Gospel and have zero experience and closed minds to the Full Gospel always seem to be the ones that try to convince those that do believe in the full Gospel how it all should work or does not work.

Do us heathens a favor, and stop trying to save us from ourselves. We are perfectly fine and understand we have some bad seeds in our own camp and we can discern for ourselves the bad seeds without all your expertise on the subject, which would be a big fat GOOSE EGG.

And to take it a bit further,when one knows about the false teachers but never speaks out against them does that show Christ's love in one or does it show that,that person hates their brother or sister and couldn't give a rat's behind about them? What did John say about not loving our brothers whom we have seen? Didn't he say if we do not love our brothers and sisters who we have seen that it is not possible to love the Father whom we have not seen? So where does not speaking out about the false prophets and teachers show the love of Christ?

 

[RickShafer]

False teachers?
Read the Holy Writ.
Just read it for your self.
Then you will not be led astray by wolves.
Just read it for yourself Sarah.

 

[SarahM777]

False teachers?
Read the Holy Writ.
Just read it for your self.
Then you will not be led astray by wolves.
Just read it for yourself Sarah.

I have many times Rick. I am concerned for those who still listen to the false prophets and teachers,the end result is not good and I do not want to see anyone destroyed. Does not your heart ache in the same manner that Jesus does for the lost? Does not your heart ache for those listening to false prophets and teachers?

 

[SarahM777]

False teachers?
Read the Holy Writ.
Just read it for your self.
Then you will not be led astray by wolves.
Just read it for yourself Sarah.

Don't forget where I came from. I have seen the real deal of those who are truly His and I have seen many who claim to be His but are so fake and phony and have no love. Because the evidence and mark of those who belong to the Father is love. Not the cheap shallow feel good type of love but true Agape love. The same type of love that Christ had for us.

 

[RickShafer]

Good Sarah.
You know the possible pitfalls of soul worship.
So you already know to read the scriptures for yourself.
I'm not telling you what to do, but if I were you, I would just study.
Just study the whole of I Cor. 12 and 13.
(Not long, not long.....not hard, not hard)
- God richly bless you Sarah, - I already know He loves you! - (So the blessing shant be too hard)