The Original Pentecostal Movement
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T
Sarah,
Why do you seem to operate in constant confusion? Is it God or isn't it God? The Bible says that God is not the author of confusion but of Peace. The Peace of God is not Peace with God.
Your comparing of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost to witchcraft, seems to me, to be giving more credit to darkness than to light.
The Bible proves to us that Satan will counterfeit anything of God, because he seeks to be God.
Let that simmer with you awhile and think about what you are saying.
I continue to be saddened by Gods people that believe in Satan and his wiles and all his manifested evil, but rule out how we enforce the victory against it in the PRESENT DAY.
Why do you seem to operate in constant confusion? Is it God or isn't it God? The Bible says that God is not the author of confusion but of Peace. The Peace of God is not Peace with God.
Your comparing of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost to witchcraft, seems to me, to be giving more credit to darkness than to light.
The Bible proves to us that Satan will counterfeit anything of God, because he seeks to be God.
Let that simmer with you awhile and think about what you are saying.
I continue to be saddened by Gods people that believe in Satan and his wiles and all his manifested evil, but rule out how we enforce the victory against it in the PRESENT DAY.
Preaching as they did at Azusa to receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign of speaking in tongues that comes with no interpretation has been rebuffed by Paul as by his folly, he even tried to reach out in Christ's love to correct those in error.
2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Romans 16:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
1 Corinthians 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Brethren, pray for us.
2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;..........[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Ephesians 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
So tell me how false teachings can be singled out as preaching another Jesus or another spirit to receive if you actually believe preaching to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign of tongues is not the same thing?
2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Romans 16:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
1 Corinthians 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Brethren, pray for us.
2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;..........[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Ephesians 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
So tell me how false teachings can be singled out as preaching another Jesus or another spirit to receive if you actually believe preaching to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign of tongues is not the same thing?
Whatza matta, can't you or your pack find a good website that tells about the Pentecostal movement? Hard for a cheetah to change her spots, isn't it? 
wuz trying to be fair...on the history.
wuz tryin to avoid cries of foul later.
but oh well. prolly hasta be.
k.....ttyl.
love zone
The histories so far in this thread are rather concise, so I’d like to add a little to what already has been said from a book written by William W. Menzies, Ph. D. entitled Anointed to Serve, The Story of the Assemblies of God (Springfield, Missouri: Gospel Publishing House, 1971). Although the AG is only part of the Pentecostal movement it is a big part and their origin is generally representative of all Pentecostal groups. I might add that I was saved in an AG church and grew there for around ten years before we left. So if you’re up for a short book report here we go:
The Pentecostal movement was heavily influenced by the two main groups maintaining opposition to the Modernism that had settled into the mainline churches after the war . These two groups were the Fundamentalist and Holiness Revivals (p. 22), however, the Holiness Movement had the greatest influence on the Pentecostals (p. 24), and contributed to the notion of a second experience subsequent to salvation.
The Holiness Movement began with John Wesley’s doctrine of perfectionism. Holiness preachers like Charles G. Finney and William E. Boardman played a big part in the Great Revival of 1858 (p.25). The essential doctrine of the Holiness preachers was that a second spiritual experience was to come after regeneration, resulting in eradication of sin and total sanctification (p. 26). However, by the late 1800’s the Keswick view that the second experience was an enduement of power rather than total sanctification gained popularity among preachers like D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey and A. B. Simpson.
During this time there were a number of “Pentecostal” outpourings in revivals scattered around the world (pp. 28-33), but what some attribute as the birth of the Pentecostal movement (p.37) took place at the Bethel Bible College in December 31, 1900. Following the Bible school movement used by the Keswick Holiness leaders, Charles Parham opened BBC with the purpose of, “intensive study of the Bible in a spiritual atmosphere for the developing of effective witnesses to Christ” (p. 36). Most of the students were serious lay people from many denominations, but mostly from Holiness and Methodist churches (p. 36). Due December 31, 1900 all the students were to examine scripture, especially Acts, for the topic of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The result of the students study was that there was a Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (p. 37). The spread of this new doctrine has been fairly well documented earlier in this thread, i. e., Parham>W. J. Seymour>Azusa Street and beyond.
So yes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues subsequent to salvation is a distinctive of the Pentecostal Movement. And some of the Pentecostal groups still preach total sanctification, however, the AG doesn’t. Hope this helps. I’d be glad to go into the Scriptural basis for the Pentecostal doctrine if no one else does when I get time.
The Pentecostal movement was heavily influenced by the two main groups maintaining opposition to the Modernism that had settled into the mainline churches after the war . These two groups were the Fundamentalist and Holiness Revivals (p. 22), however, the Holiness Movement had the greatest influence on the Pentecostals (p. 24), and contributed to the notion of a second experience subsequent to salvation.
The Holiness Movement began with John Wesley’s doctrine of perfectionism. Holiness preachers like Charles G. Finney and William E. Boardman played a big part in the Great Revival of 1858 (p.25). The essential doctrine of the Holiness preachers was that a second spiritual experience was to come after regeneration, resulting in eradication of sin and total sanctification (p. 26). However, by the late 1800’s the Keswick view that the second experience was an enduement of power rather than total sanctification gained popularity among preachers like D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey and A. B. Simpson.
During this time there were a number of “Pentecostal” outpourings in revivals scattered around the world (pp. 28-33), but what some attribute as the birth of the Pentecostal movement (p.37) took place at the Bethel Bible College in December 31, 1900. Following the Bible school movement used by the Keswick Holiness leaders, Charles Parham opened BBC with the purpose of, “intensive study of the Bible in a spiritual atmosphere for the developing of effective witnesses to Christ” (p. 36). Most of the students were serious lay people from many denominations, but mostly from Holiness and Methodist churches (p. 36). Due December 31, 1900 all the students were to examine scripture, especially Acts, for the topic of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The result of the students study was that there was a Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (p. 37). The spread of this new doctrine has been fairly well documented earlier in this thread, i. e., Parham>W. J. Seymour>Azusa Street and beyond.
So yes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues subsequent to salvation is a distinctive of the Pentecostal Movement. And some of the Pentecostal groups still preach total sanctification, however, the AG doesn’t. Hope this helps. I’d be glad to go into the Scriptural basis for the Pentecostal doctrine if no one else does when I get time.
There are times to tell the truth.....
Galatians 4:16Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
And there are times when they are rejecting the truth that we should just leave them be.
Matthew 15:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
There will be times when Jesus doesn't want us to share the gospel at all because they are not seeking Him, and then there are times when He wants us to because they are seeking Him.
Matthew 7:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: [SUP]8 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
An example of how Jesus is leading us through the Holy Spirit is given in this historical account in Acts.
Acts 16:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, [SUP]7 [/SUP]After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
This is comforting to know because God is really all knowing as to whom is seeking Him that would come to the light as opposed to those that would not come because they prefer their evil deeds than to come to the light to be reproved of them.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Yet they all have to be done by trusting Jesus as our Good Shepherd in leading them what to do as He is at work & the Father's will shall be done on earth as it is in Heaven..
Galatians 4:16Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
And there are times when they are rejecting the truth that we should just leave them be.
Matthew 15:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
There will be times when Jesus doesn't want us to share the gospel at all because they are not seeking Him, and then there are times when He wants us to because they are seeking Him.
Matthew 7:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: [SUP]8 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
An example of how Jesus is leading us through the Holy Spirit is given in this historical account in Acts.
Acts 16:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, [SUP]7 [/SUP]After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
This is comforting to know because God is really all knowing as to whom is seeking Him that would come to the light as opposed to those that would not come because they prefer their evil deeds than to come to the light to be reproved of them.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Yet they all have to be done by trusting Jesus as our Good Shepherd in leading them what to do as He is at work & the Father's will shall be done on earth as it is in Heaven..
Zone,
There is also another person by the name of Frank Sandford who had ties to Anges Ozman,who both were tied to Parham. Sandford was taught by Dowie.
Frank Sandford - Wikipedia
Frank Weston Sandford (October 2, 1862 – March 4, 1948) was the founder and leader of an apocalyptic Christian sect, informally called "Shiloh" and eventually known officially as "The Kingdom." Sandford was early attracted topremillennialism, the Higher Life movement, the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, and divine healing; and in the 1890s, he created a communal society in coastal Maine whose members "lived on faith" rather than being gainfully employed. Considered by former members and many neighbors to be a crank and an autocrat who insisted on unquestioning loyalty, Sandford—who had identified himself with the biblical Elijah and David—was convicted ofmanslaughter in 1911 and served seven years in a federal penitentiary. His absence retarded the growth of his small sect; but it survived, in attenuated form, into the 21st century.
....
There is also another person by the name of Frank Sandford who had ties to Anges Ozman,who both were tied to Parham. Sandford was taught by Dowie.
Frank Sandford - Wikipedia
Frank Weston Sandford (October 2, 1862 – March 4, 1948) was the founder and leader of an apocalyptic Christian sect, informally called "Shiloh" and eventually known officially as "The Kingdom." Sandford was early attracted topremillennialism, the Higher Life movement, the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, and divine healing; and in the 1890s, he created a communal society in coastal Maine whose members "lived on faith" rather than being gainfully employed. Considered by former members and many neighbors to be a crank and an autocrat who insisted on unquestioning loyalty, Sandford—who had identified himself with the biblical Elijah and David—was convicted ofmanslaughter in 1911 and served seven years in a federal penitentiary. His absence retarded the growth of his small sect; but it survived, in attenuated form, into the 21st century.
....
Talking Pentecostalism
Why Pentecostalism was successful
Only three years after the revival of tongues-speaking that began in 1906 at Azusa Street, Pentecostalism had become a world-wide movement. Why did Pentecostalism grow so rapidly?
The origin of Pentecostalism must be understood against the backdrop of a revival of tongues-speaking that occured in 1901 in Topeka, after which Charles Parham formulated a new doctrine of Spirit-baptism. He taught that baptism in the Spirit is a third work of grace, separate to conversion and sanctification, with the initial evidence of tongues-speaking.
The Topeka Revival sowed the seed of Pentecostalism. [1] Charles Parham had grown up in Methodist and Holiness circles. Following the lead of many others in this movement he strongly emphasised the gifts of the Spirit, including healing.
Parham had been influenced significantly by Benjamin Irwin and Frank Sandford. Following Stanford, Parham understood tongues to have a preaching function. Consequently he and his followers were among those hoping to receive the power of the Spirit to rapidly evangelise the world at the turn of the nineteenth century by speaking in other languages.
Like Irwin he understood baptism in the Spirit to be a third work of grace empowering the believer and gifting them for evangelism. He taught that those who had been converted and had gone forward to entire sanctification (Wesley's Christian perfection) should expect a baptism of “the Holy Spirit and fire.”
Parham was part of a Bible study group which was made up of some of his students and several Baptist ministers. After studying of the Book of Acts, Parham came to his conclusion that tongues was the “initial evidence” of Spirit baptism based on the narrative literature of Acts and the longer ending of Mark. Tongues in Acts seem to have the function of providing evidence of Spirit baptism. Following the pattern of other “restorationists,” he elevated this factor in the history of the Church to doctrinal standing.
Talking Pentecostalism: Why Pentecostalism was successful
Why Pentecostalism was successful
Only three years after the revival of tongues-speaking that began in 1906 at Azusa Street, Pentecostalism had become a world-wide movement. Why did Pentecostalism grow so rapidly?
The origin of Pentecostalism must be understood against the backdrop of a revival of tongues-speaking that occured in 1901 in Topeka, after which Charles Parham formulated a new doctrine of Spirit-baptism. He taught that baptism in the Spirit is a third work of grace, separate to conversion and sanctification, with the initial evidence of tongues-speaking.
The Topeka Revival sowed the seed of Pentecostalism. [1] Charles Parham had grown up in Methodist and Holiness circles. Following the lead of many others in this movement he strongly emphasised the gifts of the Spirit, including healing.
Parham had been influenced significantly by Benjamin Irwin and Frank Sandford. Following Stanford, Parham understood tongues to have a preaching function. Consequently he and his followers were among those hoping to receive the power of the Spirit to rapidly evangelise the world at the turn of the nineteenth century by speaking in other languages.
Like Irwin he understood baptism in the Spirit to be a third work of grace empowering the believer and gifting them for evangelism. He taught that those who had been converted and had gone forward to entire sanctification (Wesley's Christian perfection) should expect a baptism of “the Holy Spirit and fire.”
Parham was part of a Bible study group which was made up of some of his students and several Baptist ministers. After studying of the Book of Acts, Parham came to his conclusion that tongues was the “initial evidence” of Spirit baptism based on the narrative literature of Acts and the longer ending of Mark. Tongues in Acts seem to have the function of providing evidence of Spirit baptism. Following the pattern of other “restorationists,” he elevated this factor in the history of the Church to doctrinal standing.
Talking Pentecostalism: Why Pentecostalism was successful
awesome! yes please do go into detail.
so, quick question - do you personally believe that Wesley's perfectionism/sinlessness; (followed by Finney et al) was error?
i believe it was...and i believe people knew this (though 1 john testifies that some do fall into a deluded state over this belief)....and so the "reason" for the second blessing thing changed.
what do you think?
so, quick question - do you personally believe that Wesley's perfectionism/sinlessness; (followed by Finney et al) was error?
i believe it was...and i believe people knew this (though 1 john testifies that some do fall into a deluded state over this belief)....and so the "reason" for the second blessing thing changed.
what do you think?
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He taught that baptism in the Spirit is a third work of grace, separate to conversion and sanctification, with the initial evidence of tongues-speaking.?????
Like Irwin he understood baptism in the Spirit to be a third work of grace empowering the believer and gifting them for evangelism. He taught that those who had been converted and had gone forward to entire sanctification (Wesley's Christian perfection) should expect a baptism of “the Holy Spirit and fire.” ????
so in reality - the foundation is
1) conversion (now i'm really interested to know how they define conversion - mental assent?)
2) entire sanctification - perfection!
3) then "the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire"
....
wowsa.
okay.....thanks sarah.
hmm....if you come across what "conversion" consists of, that would be telling.
can it be said that the commonly accepted belief really is that if you don't have this evidence of tongue-talking you're really not saved?
tsk....so many disagreements at this point...i believe because once again - they knew this stuff wasn't true.
i.e: total sanctification never to sin again - perfection....then .....tongues for evangelism...but nobody understood the unknown noises. so it became a prayer language thingee.
okay.
Conversion in the Original Pentecostal Movement.
what was it said to be. maybe Keswick has the answers to that.
i don't enjoy wading through Finney's madness but...i reckon the conversion doctrine is found there (?)
Wesley waffled.
hmmmm
2 Corinthians 11:[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,.......
[HR][/HR]Zone,
Not sure if this will help
Talking Pentecostalism
A Definition of 'Pentecostalism'
A movement
Pentecostalism is a movement; it is a trend within Christianity of a growing group that share characteristic beliefs and goals. The Charismatic movement is the influence of Pentecostalism among mainline church denominations. Though there are thousands of Pentecostal denominations worldwide, such as the Assemblies of God, the Apostolic Church and the Full Gospel Church, the Charismatic movement has shown that Pentecostalism transcends denominations.
A modern movement
Pentecostalism is also a modern movement because it emerged only recently in modern history. Its definite origin and unique theology distinguishes it from other movements in history, such as Montanism (a prophetic movement of the second century), that although similar, did not possess the doctrinal distinctives of Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism has a characteristic doctrinal teaching concerning “baptism with the Spirit”1 (or “Spirit baptism” for short) which is unique from any other past movement in history.
A reformation movement
Pentecostalism is also a reformation movement because it seeks to reform certain doctrines and practices of the past by its influence in the present. Pentecostalism not only began by reforming various doctrines of the past, but still today one of the goals of this movement is the continuing reformation of the church in these areas.
A restoration movement
Pentecostalism is a restoration movement. It began with a belief that in its origin God was restoring New Testament Christianity to the church today by bringing a discovery and recovery of certain truths and experiences of the Spirit. And now by virtue of its rapid growth and huge worldwide influence, Pentecostalism today is increasingly bringing such a 'restoration' to the church because of the way it is “reshaping Christianity in the twenty-first century.”3
Talking Pentecostalism: Defining Pentecostalism: What is a Pentecostal?
Not sure if this will help
Talking Pentecostalism
A Definition of 'Pentecostalism'
A movement
Pentecostalism is a movement; it is a trend within Christianity of a growing group that share characteristic beliefs and goals. The Charismatic movement is the influence of Pentecostalism among mainline church denominations. Though there are thousands of Pentecostal denominations worldwide, such as the Assemblies of God, the Apostolic Church and the Full Gospel Church, the Charismatic movement has shown that Pentecostalism transcends denominations.
A modern movement
Pentecostalism is also a modern movement because it emerged only recently in modern history. Its definite origin and unique theology distinguishes it from other movements in history, such as Montanism (a prophetic movement of the second century), that although similar, did not possess the doctrinal distinctives of Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism has a characteristic doctrinal teaching concerning “baptism with the Spirit”1 (or “Spirit baptism” for short) which is unique from any other past movement in history.
A reformation movement
Pentecostalism is also a reformation movement because it seeks to reform certain doctrines and practices of the past by its influence in the present. Pentecostalism not only began by reforming various doctrines of the past, but still today one of the goals of this movement is the continuing reformation of the church in these areas.
A restoration movement
Pentecostalism is a restoration movement. It began with a belief that in its origin God was restoring New Testament Christianity to the church today by bringing a discovery and recovery of certain truths and experiences of the Spirit. And now by virtue of its rapid growth and huge worldwide influence, Pentecostalism today is increasingly bringing such a 'restoration' to the church because of the way it is “reshaping Christianity in the twenty-first century.”3
"Thus far the twentieth-century Pentecostal movement has succeeded in restoring the experiential dimension of the Spirit's dynamic presence to a significant segment of the church. Pentecostals believe that recovery of the doctrine and experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is comparable to the Reformation's recovery of the doctrine of justification by faith."4
Talking Pentecostalism: Defining Pentecostalism: What is a Pentecostal?
Talking Pentecostalism
[h=3]Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 2)[/h]
The legacy of Edward Irving
“The major milieu out of which Pentecostalism sprang was the worldwide Holiness movement, which had developed out of nineteenth-century American Methodism.”(Vinson Synan, Ph.D., University of Georgia, 2001) [1].
To be consise, Pentecostalism developed in the early twentieth-century from the Holiness movement, which developed from American Methodism in the nineteenth-century, which developed out of eighteenth-century Weslyan theology. However, the theological roots of Pentecostalism are more complex than American Methodism alone.
In the 1830s until the end of the nineteenth-century a revival of tongues-speaking occurred in England that was the forerunner to twentieth-century Pentecostalism. The revival occurred during the ministry of Edward Irving. Understanding where Pentecostalism came from involves understanding the legacy of Edward Irving and the importance of nineteenth-century premillennialism.[4]
Nineteenth-century Premillennialism (Irving's legacy) [2]
Edward Irving (1792-1834) is considered to be a forerunner of Pentecostalism [3]. He was a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) minister, with a congregation in London. He believed himself to be a prophet of God and sought to reintroduce a charismatic dimension to Protestantism.
Irving developed a charismatic sacramentalism. He believed that much of the power of the Reformation lay in its sacramental theology, and so in response he stressed the presence and power of the Spirit in baptism.
Later he developed a charismatic eschatology. After meeting some of the first Anglican premillennialists [4] he began to believe in a period prior to the Second Coming when a “latter-rain” outpouring of the Holy Spirit would occur. This was grounded in his apocalyptic exposition of biblical prophecy. Irving was the first major populariser of this theology because of his many published works on prophecy and the Albury Park prophecy conferences, which he organised. [5]
It was Irving's apocalyptic interpretation of biblical prophecy that influenced one of the most significant fathers of this movement, John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), to adopt this new understanding. Darby was a leader in the Brethren movement who went on to develop a new system of eschatology called “dispensationalism.” Dispensationalism went against the teaching of all of Church history by teaching that the Second Coming of Christ would occur in two stages, the first being a secret “rapture” of true believers, and the second being the Second Advent. Many from Darby's own group, the Plymouth Brethren, went on to become enthusiastic preachers of dispensational premillennialism. [6]
Next Irving formulated a charismatic Christology, teaching that in the incarnation Jesus received a fallen nature, but the activity of the Spirit in his life kept him from sinning.
It was during this time that Irving began to teach that the “extraordinary” gifts would be given again by the Spirit to the church in the period just prior to the Second Coming of Christ. This conviction led him to wait in expectation for this to occur in his life time.
Then in 1830 Irving learned that speaking in tongues had been reported in Scotland. It was not long after this that Irving himself reported manifestations of tongues-speaking in his Regent Square Church. From then on Irving made tongues-speaking the central focus of his church meetings.
Shortly after this time, in 1833, Irving was disposed by the Church of Scotland General Assembly for his teachings. Almost all of his followers joined the Catholic Apostolic Church and until the end of the century his followers made tongues-speaking characteristic to their church life.
The next post will be the final of this three part series talking about where Pentecostalism came from. We'll talk again about the nineteenth-century, this time focusing on the Holiness movement, the movement that began in America with the motive of preserving and spreading Wesley's (English) doctrine of entire sanctification and Christian perfection.
Talking Pentecostalism: Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 2)
[h=3]Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 2)[/h]
The legacy of Edward Irving
“The major milieu out of which Pentecostalism sprang was the worldwide Holiness movement, which had developed out of nineteenth-century American Methodism.”(Vinson Synan, Ph.D., University of Georgia, 2001) [1].
To be consise, Pentecostalism developed in the early twentieth-century from the Holiness movement, which developed from American Methodism in the nineteenth-century, which developed out of eighteenth-century Weslyan theology. However, the theological roots of Pentecostalism are more complex than American Methodism alone.
In the 1830s until the end of the nineteenth-century a revival of tongues-speaking occurred in England that was the forerunner to twentieth-century Pentecostalism. The revival occurred during the ministry of Edward Irving. Understanding where Pentecostalism came from involves understanding the legacy of Edward Irving and the importance of nineteenth-century premillennialism.[4]
Nineteenth-century Premillennialism (Irving's legacy) [2]
Edward Irving (1792-1834) is considered to be a forerunner of Pentecostalism [3]. He was a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) minister, with a congregation in London. He believed himself to be a prophet of God and sought to reintroduce a charismatic dimension to Protestantism.
Irving developed a charismatic sacramentalism. He believed that much of the power of the Reformation lay in its sacramental theology, and so in response he stressed the presence and power of the Spirit in baptism.
Later he developed a charismatic eschatology. After meeting some of the first Anglican premillennialists [4] he began to believe in a period prior to the Second Coming when a “latter-rain” outpouring of the Holy Spirit would occur. This was grounded in his apocalyptic exposition of biblical prophecy. Irving was the first major populariser of this theology because of his many published works on prophecy and the Albury Park prophecy conferences, which he organised. [5]
It was Irving's apocalyptic interpretation of biblical prophecy that influenced one of the most significant fathers of this movement, John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), to adopt this new understanding. Darby was a leader in the Brethren movement who went on to develop a new system of eschatology called “dispensationalism.” Dispensationalism went against the teaching of all of Church history by teaching that the Second Coming of Christ would occur in two stages, the first being a secret “rapture” of true believers, and the second being the Second Advent. Many from Darby's own group, the Plymouth Brethren, went on to become enthusiastic preachers of dispensational premillennialism. [6]
Next Irving formulated a charismatic Christology, teaching that in the incarnation Jesus received a fallen nature, but the activity of the Spirit in his life kept him from sinning.
It was during this time that Irving began to teach that the “extraordinary” gifts would be given again by the Spirit to the church in the period just prior to the Second Coming of Christ. This conviction led him to wait in expectation for this to occur in his life time.
Then in 1830 Irving learned that speaking in tongues had been reported in Scotland. It was not long after this that Irving himself reported manifestations of tongues-speaking in his Regent Square Church. From then on Irving made tongues-speaking the central focus of his church meetings.
Shortly after this time, in 1833, Irving was disposed by the Church of Scotland General Assembly for his teachings. Almost all of his followers joined the Catholic Apostolic Church and until the end of the century his followers made tongues-speaking characteristic to their church life.
The next post will be the final of this three part series talking about where Pentecostalism came from. We'll talk again about the nineteenth-century, this time focusing on the Holiness movement, the movement that began in America with the motive of preserving and spreading Wesley's (English) doctrine of entire sanctification and Christian perfection.
Talking Pentecostalism: Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 2)
Zone,I think I found it
Talking Pentecostalism
Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 3)
The Holiness movement
“Pentecostalism is an offshoot of the Holiness movement.”[1] The Holiness movement originated in America in the 1840-50s when Methodism's “second blessing” emphasis spread to America. The movement began with the motive of preserving and spreading Wesley's doctrine of entire sanctification and Christian perfection.
American Holiness preachers began emphasising two “crises” in the process of salvation. The first experience of conversion brought justification, where one was freed from the condemnation of sin. The second experience of “full” salvation brought “entire” sanctification, where one was freed from the flaw in moral nature that caused sin. [2] However the movement eventually reformed Wesleyan theology on the “second blessing.”
Firstly, Wesley's notion of a second blessing developed into the notion of a second experience of Spirit baptism. Phoebe Palmer and John Inskip were leaders in the movement who taught that the second work of grace (sanctification) took place throught a second blessing of Spirit baptism. Though the focus remained to be the sanctified life, new scriptural imagery was employed such as the “outpouring of the Spirit,” “baptism in the Spirit,” and the “tongue of fire.” Although the Holiness movement's teachers did not stress charismatic phenomena (speaking in tongues was not mentioned, for example), they did emphasize a conscious experience of baptism in the Spirit.
Many arose at this time within and without the Methodist circuit teaching about the nature of the second work of grace, and there came a slow shift to “instant empowerment.” Charles G. Finney (1792-1875) [3] is an example. He came from within Presbyteriansim, but was influenced greatly by Nathaniel W. Taylor's form of Arminianism (New Haven Theology) and Wesley's belief in “entire sanctification.” Finney developed a theology (Oberlin Theology) that showed remarkable parallels to Methodism. He emphasised a second and more mature stage in the Christian life. In his words, a “higher and more stable form of Christian life was attainable, and was the priviledge of all Christians.” [4] Sometimes referred to as “the baptism of the Holy Spirit,” Finney taught that Spirit baptism was the second work of grace that provided divine empowerment to achieve Christian perfection. [5] He stressed the need for perfect commitment rather than perfect sinlessness. He taught that Christians were taught to “tarry” (Luke 24:49, KJV) for the promised baptism in the Spirit which would break the power of sin in their lives and usher them into the Spirit-filled life. Also, according to Joel 2:28, this gift of the Spirit would enable prophecy for the last days. Finney's teaching contributed to the Holiness Movement and therefore indirectly to Pentecostalism.
The Keswick movement provides another example of where the shift in emphasis to Spirit empowerment in the second blessing became apparent during this time. The Keswick movement began in Great Britain in 1874 (at the annual “Convention for the Promotion of Practical Holiness”). It had its origins in the evangelistic campaign of Dwight L. Moody in 1873-4 who emphasized the need for the Spirit's empowerment for Christian service and entertained the idea of Spirit baptism as a second blessing of the Spirit's power. The convention also began under the influence of American writers such as Asa Mahan, who promoted Charles Finney's theological distinctives about the Spirit and Revival (Oberlin Theology). [6] English speakers at this convention (who were more in tune with Finney and Moody's shift on Wesleyan theology) began emphasizing the “deeper life” rather than holiness because they believed sin could not be eradicated, but rather counteracted by victorious living through the Spirit. They also taught a distinct Spirit experience subsequent to conversion. This helped change the interpretation of Spirit baptism from sinless perfection to an ongoing victorious Christian life. They spoke of the “fullness of the Spirit” as the “higher” or “deeper” life. They also spoke of four doctrines of the movement after A. B. Simpson formalized and stressed his four basic doctrines: salvation, baptism in the Spirit, divine healing, and the second coming of Christ. [7]
During this period many publications were produced to teach seekers how to receive an “enduement of power” through an experience of the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion. Many testimonies were given to emotional experiences that accompanied the “second blessing,” some shouting for joy, others weeping with surpassing peace.
The third development within the Holiness movement is with regard to what is now known as “restoration theology.” Many within the Holiness movement began to believe that “Spirit baptism fully restored the spiritual relationship that Adam and Eve had with God in the Garden of Eden.” [8] This is related to the predominant expectation of an imminent premillenial second coming of Christ. Teachers in the movement exphasised a “premillenial rapture” of the Church. This was first promoted by John Nelson Darby, founder of Plymouth Brethern. With this Holiness movement teachers encouraged the expectancy of a restoration of the New Testament church as a sign of the end of the church age.
Talking Pentecostalism: Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 3)
cont
Talking Pentecostalism
Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 3)
The Holiness movement
“Pentecostalism is an offshoot of the Holiness movement.”[1] The Holiness movement originated in America in the 1840-50s when Methodism's “second blessing” emphasis spread to America. The movement began with the motive of preserving and spreading Wesley's doctrine of entire sanctification and Christian perfection.
American Holiness preachers began emphasising two “crises” in the process of salvation. The first experience of conversion brought justification, where one was freed from the condemnation of sin. The second experience of “full” salvation brought “entire” sanctification, where one was freed from the flaw in moral nature that caused sin. [2] However the movement eventually reformed Wesleyan theology on the “second blessing.”
Firstly, Wesley's notion of a second blessing developed into the notion of a second experience of Spirit baptism. Phoebe Palmer and John Inskip were leaders in the movement who taught that the second work of grace (sanctification) took place throught a second blessing of Spirit baptism. Though the focus remained to be the sanctified life, new scriptural imagery was employed such as the “outpouring of the Spirit,” “baptism in the Spirit,” and the “tongue of fire.” Although the Holiness movement's teachers did not stress charismatic phenomena (speaking in tongues was not mentioned, for example), they did emphasize a conscious experience of baptism in the Spirit.
Many arose at this time within and without the Methodist circuit teaching about the nature of the second work of grace, and there came a slow shift to “instant empowerment.” Charles G. Finney (1792-1875) [3] is an example. He came from within Presbyteriansim, but was influenced greatly by Nathaniel W. Taylor's form of Arminianism (New Haven Theology) and Wesley's belief in “entire sanctification.” Finney developed a theology (Oberlin Theology) that showed remarkable parallels to Methodism. He emphasised a second and more mature stage in the Christian life. In his words, a “higher and more stable form of Christian life was attainable, and was the priviledge of all Christians.” [4] Sometimes referred to as “the baptism of the Holy Spirit,” Finney taught that Spirit baptism was the second work of grace that provided divine empowerment to achieve Christian perfection. [5] He stressed the need for perfect commitment rather than perfect sinlessness. He taught that Christians were taught to “tarry” (Luke 24:49, KJV) for the promised baptism in the Spirit which would break the power of sin in their lives and usher them into the Spirit-filled life. Also, according to Joel 2:28, this gift of the Spirit would enable prophecy for the last days. Finney's teaching contributed to the Holiness Movement and therefore indirectly to Pentecostalism.
The Keswick movement provides another example of where the shift in emphasis to Spirit empowerment in the second blessing became apparent during this time. The Keswick movement began in Great Britain in 1874 (at the annual “Convention for the Promotion of Practical Holiness”). It had its origins in the evangelistic campaign of Dwight L. Moody in 1873-4 who emphasized the need for the Spirit's empowerment for Christian service and entertained the idea of Spirit baptism as a second blessing of the Spirit's power. The convention also began under the influence of American writers such as Asa Mahan, who promoted Charles Finney's theological distinctives about the Spirit and Revival (Oberlin Theology). [6] English speakers at this convention (who were more in tune with Finney and Moody's shift on Wesleyan theology) began emphasizing the “deeper life” rather than holiness because they believed sin could not be eradicated, but rather counteracted by victorious living through the Spirit. They also taught a distinct Spirit experience subsequent to conversion. This helped change the interpretation of Spirit baptism from sinless perfection to an ongoing victorious Christian life. They spoke of the “fullness of the Spirit” as the “higher” or “deeper” life. They also spoke of four doctrines of the movement after A. B. Simpson formalized and stressed his four basic doctrines: salvation, baptism in the Spirit, divine healing, and the second coming of Christ. [7]
During this period many publications were produced to teach seekers how to receive an “enduement of power” through an experience of the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion. Many testimonies were given to emotional experiences that accompanied the “second blessing,” some shouting for joy, others weeping with surpassing peace.
The third development within the Holiness movement is with regard to what is now known as “restoration theology.” Many within the Holiness movement began to believe that “Spirit baptism fully restored the spiritual relationship that Adam and Eve had with God in the Garden of Eden.” [8] This is related to the predominant expectation of an imminent premillenial second coming of Christ. Teachers in the movement exphasised a “premillenial rapture” of the Church. This was first promoted by John Nelson Darby, founder of Plymouth Brethern. With this Holiness movement teachers encouraged the expectancy of a restoration of the New Testament church as a sign of the end of the church age.
Talking Pentecostalism: Where Pentecostalism came from (PART 3)
cont