What is the COVENANT of Daniel 9:27?

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow 30 years:

A harden clay is difficult to fashion.

There you go with attack again.

Same could be said for you..

 

[GRA]

1st off. I have read so many of your posts. And seen so many say the EXACT same thing you try to say. I do not have to read it all. I am also a fast reader. I noticed how you tried to take only certain aspects of both verses and put them together. It did not take along time to read it.

As for your one post of abomination.

1. Jesus refers to it. { Yes - Jesus makes reference to 'the abomination of desolation' in the Olivet Discourse - Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. }
2. He calls it the abomination which makes desolate. { Daniel says this in Daniel 11:31; 12:11. }
3. He makes it a one time event. { This is true for Daniel 11:31; 12:11; however, it is not exactly the same as what is said in Daniel 9:27 - please see comment below, outside of this quote bubble }

so forgive me if I chose to trust Jesus' interpretation over yours. { Jesus did not interpret it. He only made reference to it. He left the interpretation to the reader:

Matthew 24:15 - (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mark 13:14 - (let him that readeth understand)

}

again, I am not going to twist what daniel said in order to make my belief come real. { You do not realize this yet -- but -- you are ... "twisting what Daniel said in order to make your belief come real"... }

It can be said that - the Abomination of Desolation is included in what the word 'abominations' in Daniel 9:27 is referring to - but, is not specifically being referred to by that word in that verse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It can be said that - the Abomination of Desolation is included in what the word 'abominations' in Daniel 9:27 is referring to - but, is not specifically being referred to by that word in that verse.

See. this is the reason I can not be convinced to even look at ammilinialism with any form of reliability

so tell me. What abomination of desolation was jesus speaking of?

We know it was not the one by the greek prince. I did not know there was any more.

not to mention. The abomination spoken of in dan 9 speaks of the start of events which take us to the end of the age.

And I am quite sure the disciples Jesus spoke to understood the abomination of daniel 9 is exactly what he was speaking of. And they were begining to understand the mystery paul was speaking about in Romans 11, Which I am sure excited them alot.

 

[GRA]

Because i am not a pre-trib rapture advocate..

"I'm sorry -- I keep forgetting -- I keep thinking you are 'pre-trib' -- please accept my apology..."

Because you keep making me think.

"Good... Keep thinking..."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"I'm sorry -- I keep forgetting -- I keep thinking you are 'pre-trib' -- please accept my apology..."

accepted

"Good... Keep thinking..."

I always will

 

[watcher2013]

It is stated in the passage

The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

In other words. An unknown time

Again, Jesus mentions this. There will be wars and rumors of wars. Nation will rise, and kingdoms will rise. But the end is not yet.

Let me get this straight, You believe that the last week of Daniel will not begin until the end of War: Which by the way is the War of Rev 16:14?

1. Thank you for showing this was not jesus.
2. Yes. But this was infered by the first destruction of the temple in vs 26. So how in vs 27 was the abomination commited with no temple?

The first 69 weeks was up to the Messiah was cut off (Jesus)
The Remaining week was about the war with the Jews and the Destruction of city and sanctuary:

Again, vs 27 follows vs 26. Not like someone tried to say earlier, that they were both at the same time just reiterated or whatever they are saying.

Unlike in other places. Gabriel is showing in progression what will happen, to explain the 70 weeks. And again, Jesus uses the same progression in his message of matt 24

Verse 27 is the Period from the Roman Invasion of Galilee in 67AD the destruction of the city and sanctuary (70AD) and the end of war at Masada (73-74) of verse 26:

yes I would. Would you agree that if these sacrifices are started again (which we are on the verge of seeing happen again) that this could be what gabriel was talking about?

IF a third temple is rebuilt and the sacrifices resume, Then I understand Daniel 9:27 wrong:
But if you and the Pre-tribulationist are still here when and IF that time comes, I still would not agree with you.

[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]On the contrary. Funny how you did not post matthews version of the same events. Just because luke did not say the complete conversation does not mean it was not said.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

You tried to be tricky, Shame Shame

I Did...again READ First before you comment.

No. Daniel spoke of the destruction, and many events leading to the end, Including the abomination.

You are jumping out of the prophecy: it is about "your people and thy city"

Your people: first 69 weeks up to Messiah to finish transgression
Your City: Last week: Destruction of City and sanctuary:

Mathew shows where the disciples understood this. By asking him when the destruction would be, And when the events would be which would show we are comming to the end (followed by the return of Christ.)

The very context of the passage was the destruction of the temple: When these things be:
That is the very beginning

and it ends at Christ coming

Yep. Which would immediately follow the great tribulation, Which immediately follows the abomination. The fact Jesus has not returned yet. The fact the great tribulation has not occured yet. Shows the abomination (which starts the events of the tribulation, as shown by Christ's warning to all in judea to flee) has not yet happened./

The tribulation starts When they see the abomination spoken of Daniel:
Mat 24:15 When yetherefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel theprophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee intothe mountains: 17 Let him which is onthe housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field returnback to take his clothes. 19 And woeunto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in thewinter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation,such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor evershall be.

In this case...Their tribulation began in AD70:
Considering your view however and comparing to the above... the Tribulation must start at the midst of your week (your abomination) not at the beginning of your week.

lol. So the gentiles were fulfilled in 70 AD? wow where did you get this? the gentiles have ruled jerusalem since the babylonians, and they still technically do. So their age is not yet complete. But thanks

What I am trying to say there was the destruction of the temple and the scattering into all nation occurred in AD70... until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[watcher2013]

There you go w

ith attack again.

Same could be said for you..

instead of an attack, consider that as a compliment to your 30 years of study:

 

[GRA]

watcher2013 - and everyone else - please take the time to read this post...

Thank You!

 

[GRA]

See. this is the reason I can not be convinced to even look at ammilinialism with any form of reliability

ammilinialism? Who said anything about ammilinialism? -- "I am somewhere in the middle of the scale":

With all of the "extremist" debate that goes on around here between those who believe "all end-times prophesy is past" and those who believe "all end-times prophesy is future" ----- I have been trying to get them all to see that the truth actually lies "somewhere between" these 'extremes'.

so tell me. What abomination of desolation was jesus speaking of?

I think you are missing the point. Daniel 9:27 is the one place that is different -- in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11, it is referring to the Abomination of Desolation - which is what is referred to in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. But - in Daniel 9:27, the word 'abominations' is not referring to the Abomination of Desolation specifically - but - the "collective whole" of a "mixture" of various abominations - including the Abomination of Desolation.

Sorry - I forgot to make that clear earlier...

We know it was not the one by the greek prince. I did not know there was any more.

No - it was earlier... ( 67 A.D. - Antiochus Epiphanes )

not to mention. The abomination spoken of in dan 9 speaks of the start of events which take us to the end of the age.

The abominations spoken of in Daniel 9:27 speak of the destruction of the temple.

The Daniel 9 passage alone does not speak to the 'end of the age' -- only to the events that we now know to have taken place around 70 A.D.

The 'end of the war' in Daniel 9:26 is referring to a specific war - from 70 A.D. -- it is not referring to [ exactly ] the same thing as the "wars and rumours of wars" of the Olivet Discourse.

And I am quite sure the disciples Jesus spoke to understood the abomination of daniel 9 is exactly what he was speaking of. And they were begining to understand the mystery paul was speaking about in Romans 11, Which I am sure excited them alot.

They knew He was speaking of the same thing as is spoken of in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 -- but that which is spoken of in Daniel 9:27 is not the same...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me get this straight, You believe that the last week of Daniel will not begin until the end of War: Which by the way is the War of Rev 16:14?

No, it starts with the confirmation of a covenant for 1 week. Which is why Gabriel lets us know it will be a seven year covenant. Which is broken in the middle (3 1/2 weeks) which leaves 3 1/2 weeks left. So we can use it wiht other aspects of scripture concerning this 42 month period.

The first 69 weeks was up to the Messiah was cut off (Jesus)

Agreed!

The Remaining week was about the war with the Jews and the Destruction of city and sanctuary:

So the last week is actually around 40 years long? how can this be, why would the first 69 weeks be literal but the last be symbolic?

That another reason ammillinialism can not be trusted. There are three views as to what the 7th week by you all just in this chat room since i have been here. It is like you all can not come together

Verse 27 is the Period from the Roman Invasion of Galilee in 67AD the destruction of the city and sanctuary (70AD) and the end of war at Masada (73-74) of verse 26:

So the three years after the destruction is the great tribulation?

Sorry. But WW2 made those events look like a school picnic. That was not the great tribulation The tribulation following the abomination will make ww2 look like a school picnic!

IF a third temple is rebuilt and the sacrifices resume, Then I understand Daniel 9:27 wrong:
But if you and the Pre-tribulationist are still here when and IF that time comes, I still would not agree with you.

Well they are attempting to build it as we speak. They have EVERYTHING ready. just the place. and permission to build it is all that is lacking

I Did...again READ First before you comment.

Yeah you did Long after you made that comment.

You are jumping out of the prophecy: it is about "your people and thy city"

Your people: first 69 weeks up to Messiah to finish transgression
Your City: Last week: Destruction of City and sanctuary:

lol. Yes, Your people.

To make an end of transgression.

Did Israel end their transgression in 70 AD? NO. 70 AD happe4ned because they had not ended their transgression.

the end of transgressions will be at the END of the 70th week.

 

[PennEd]

I have seen some people say that this debate isn't really that important because all sides agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior. I don't think that's the case. I didn't even know there were those who call themselves Christians that believed this doctrine. Which basically says that everything Jesus said in Matthew 24 already happened. This belief is at the core of the hatred some have toward the Jews. Yes they will say they don't hate them but their words speak otherwise. I think they are actually angry that the the surviving Jews from the holocaust had the audacity to form a country, call it Israel, and inhabit the same land God gave to their ancestors! They know it makes their belief look silly. Hence you have them deny parts or all of the holocaust, support the muslims in their terrorism against Israel, and EVEN some absurd nonsense that the Jews in Israel today aren't really Jews at all.

JUST STOP IT!!! It's absurd. Pray for the Jews and the peace of Jerusalem.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ammilinialism? Who said anything about ammilinialism? -- "I am somewhere in the middle of the scale":

I will be honest, I did not know there was a middle. Only premill, and amill. what would the middle be?

I think you are missing the point. Daniel 9:27 is the one place that is different -- in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11, it is referring to the Abomination of Desolation - which is what is referred to in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. But - in Daniel 9:27, the word 'abominations' is not referring to the Abomination of Desolation specifically - but - the "collective whole" of a "mixture" of various abominations - including the Abomination of Desolation.

I do not see how you can get this.

A covenant is confirmed for 1 week (7 years) but in the middle of the week (42 months, or 3.5 years or 1260 days) he brings and end (Cause to cease) sacrifice and offering in the temple. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate. (which is a term used by the jews to refer to an unclean thing entering the holy place, rendering it unclean and unfit for sacrifice, which causes the sacrifices to cease) It is obvious, or at least should be obvious, that this abominations which makes desolate is what causes the cease of sacrifice and offering.

The what happens? Something is poured out on the desolate. Until their annihilation, or destruction is completed (consumation) which of course is the wrath of God. being poured out on the earth, and those who appose him. At the end, HE completes the annialation with his return. Which is exactly what Jesus claims in matt 24.

Dan 11 is speaking of antiochus epiphanies. which he did long before jesus came to the earth. so Jesus could not be talking about this.

Dan 12 is speaking of the same abomination as daniel 9. Which is completed by the return of Christ. The end of the age, or the end of time given to gentile kingdoms to rule jerusalem.

No - it was earlier... ( 67 A.D. - Antiochus Epiphanes )

lol. Antiochus Epiphenes (a prince of the kingdom of greece) commited his abomination in app 168 BC.. It is what caused the maccabean revolt. which can be seen in the books of maccabees, and also in josephus' writtings.

The abominations spoken of in Daniel 9:27 speak of the destruction of the temple.

Says who? Nothing in the passage would lead us to think this. All it says is an unclean thing (a pagan idol or unclean animal) is placed so it stands in the holy place. If the temple is destroyed, the abomination is meaningless.

The Daniel 9 passage alone does not speak to the 'end of the age' -- only to the events that we now know to have taken place around 70 A.D.

It speaks of events LONG after AD 70. You have the wars and desolations which occure AFTER the abomination, which occure in jersualem, which have been going on for over 2000 years now.

The 'end of the war' in Daniel 9:26 is referring to a specific war - from 70 A.D. -- it is not referring to [ exactly ] the same thing as the "wars and rumours of wars" of the Olivet Discourse.

No, it says war desolations are determined. Jerusalem has laid desolate since that time And many wars have been fought over it.

They knew He was speaking of the same thing as is spoken of in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 -- but that which is spoken of in Daniel 9:27 is not the same...

Well no. They knew the one in dan 11 already occured over 100 years earlier. And they would know the one in 12 is the same as the one in 9, because this would mark the end Daniel was told about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have seen some people say that this debate isn't really that important because all sides agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior. I don't think that's the case. I didn't even know there were those who call themselves Christians that believed this doctrine. Which basically says that everything Jesus said in Matthew 24 already happened. This belief is at the core of the hatred some have toward the Jews. Yes they will say they don't hate them but their words speak otherwise. I think they are actually angry that the the surviving Jews from the holocaust had the audacity to form a country, call it Israel, and inhabit the same land God gave to their ancestors! They know it makes their belief look silly. Hence you have them deny parts or all of the holocaust, support the muslims in their terrorism against Israel, and EVEN some absurd nonsense that the Jews in Israel today aren't really Jews at all.

JUST STOP IT!!! It's absurd. Pray for the Jews and the peace of Jerusalem.

1. My ammil brotherss and sisters do believe in Jesus
2. If you understood the bible. you would realise there will be no peace in jerusalem until al the things jesus spoke of in matt 24 ended. SO you can pray all you want, you would not be [raying in the will of God. because you would pray for him to go against his prophesy

pray for everyone to be saved. But it is foolish to pray for something God says will not happen yet

 

[GRA]

Daniel 9:

[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

eternally-gratefull:

The following list of phrases, taken from the above quoted verses, is listed in chronological order of fulfillment of the events associated with each phrase:

and to anoint the most Holy

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

to finish the transgression

and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate ( even until the consummation )

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

and to seal up the vision and prophecy

( I left the 'consummation' phrase where it is because it is an "extension" of the phrase in front of it. )

The 'abominations' phrase is the "decree" that brings about the line that follows it.

A similar association exists for the next two lines.

You absolutely must learn that Biblical prophesy is not written in a verse-by-verse, phrase-by-phrase, chronological order. Just because something comes first in a passage of scripture - does not make it first chronologically.

You must pay attention to the "grammar of the language" --- it is the key thing that will help you understand what a passage of scripture is actually saying... ( or not saying )

"Just sayin'..."

eternally-gratefull:

The following list of phrases, taken from the above quoted verses, is listed in chronological order of fulfillment of the events associated with each phrase:

and to anoint the most Holy

This is referring to Jesus -- I believe - at His baptism. Secondarily, in a broader sense after His resurrection and ascension.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

'he' is Jesus; the covenant is [ directly ] the old covenant, and [ indirectly ] the new covenant.

shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

This is referring to the events of the passion - the crucifixion in particular.

to finish the transgression

This is referring to the crucifixion as the "finishing of the transgression" of Israel.

and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness

These things were accomplished by Christ by His death, burial, and resurrection -- not just for Israel, but for all...

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

This is referring to the aftermath of the renting of the veil at His death on the cross.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate ( even until the consummation )

'he' is Jesus; because of various abominations involving the temple, He caused the temple to be destroyed.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

This is 70 A.D.

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

This is referring to the aftermath of the desolation of the temple.

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

This is 70-73 A.D.

and to seal up the vision and prophecy

"All of the prophecy and vision is fulfilled by the end of the 490 years..."

( I left the 'consummation' phrase where it is because it is an "extension" of the phrase in front of it. )

The 'abominations' phrase is the "decree" that brings about the line that follows it.

A similar association exists for the next two lines.

You absolutely must learn that Biblical prophesy is not written in a verse-by-verse, phrase-by-phrase, chronological order. Just because something comes first in a passage of scripture - does not make it first chronologically.

You must pay attention to the "grammar of the language" --- it is the key thing that will help you understand what a passage of scripture is actually saying... ( or not saying )

"Just sayin'..."

 

[GRA]

No - it was earlier... ( 67 A.D. - Antiochus Epiphanes )

lol. Antiochus Epiphenes (a prince of the kingdom of greece) commited his abomination in app 168 BC.. It is what caused the maccabean revolt. which can be seen in the books of maccabees, and also in josephus' writtings.

Maybe I have the name stuck in my head after reading one of zone's posts... If so, then - my bad!

Who was it who "sacrificed" the pigs in the temple in 67 A.D.? ( please forgive my laziness for not researching it )

 

[GRA]

Maybe I have the name stuck in my head after reading one of zone's posts... If so, then - my bad!

Who was it who "sacrificed" the pigs in the temple in 67 A.D.? ( please forgive my laziness for not researching it )

O.K. ----- I have managed to get some of the details of history scrambled...

I am going to have to review some history...

 

[GRA]

Put yourself in Daniels shoes. What would he have thought? How would he have interprete3d what an abomination of desolation was?

"O.K. -- let's run with this type of reasoning for a moment..."

I have an even better question --- What would "the covenant" mean to Daniel?

A future not-yet-existant entirely-unknown-to-Daniel covenant / treaty / etc. ???

"I don't think so..."

During the time of the writing of the book of Daniel, how many things could correctly and properly be called "the covenant" ( and what are they ) ?

 

[Linda70]

Was there a "Holy of Holies" in the temple in 67AD?

Exodus 26:33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.
Exodus 26:34 And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place.

Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mark 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

If there was no "Holy of Holies" in the temple in 67AD, there could be no abomination of desolation at that time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"O.K. -- let's run with this type of reasoning for a moment..."

I have an even better question --- What would "the covenant" mean to Daniel?

A future not-yet-existant entirely-unknown-to-Daniel covenant / treaty / etc. ???

"I don't think so..."

During the time of the writing of the book of Daniel, how many things could correctly and properly be called "the covenant" ( and what are they ) ?

ok, lets do this.

He will confirm a covenant for 1 week.

Did Daniel know what this was? Can we? I would say the answer is no to both. All we can know is the covenant is broken by the abomination of desolation.

think about it.

Israel had to get a cammand to rebuild the temple. Even this command was stopped.

They had to get a command to rebuild the walls and the streets.

And all through their history post babylon (with the possible exception of the maccabean revolt. when they took control for a short time) they had a covenant (agreememnt) to be able to sacrifice in their temple. Since they were under control of the gentil kingdoms, and had to have their permission to do anything. Daniel would have understood this. And I can easily see him understand the same would happen in the time of the abomination.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

O.K. ----- I have managed to get some of the details of history scrambled...

I am going to have to review some history...

Don't feel bad. I have had to go back and research some when asked some questions because I forgot, or got it mixed up. or did not know..

Like we said earlier. Always think