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Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.
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unclefester
Guest
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BradC
Guest
Zone, in your doctrine do you believe that water baptism is needed and necessary for salvation to take place in the life of one who has believed upon Christ? Would salvation be incomplete in one's life if one did not receive water baptism after they believed? Is believing in the finished work of Christ enough to be justified before the Father and have all sins remitted or is water baptism also needed?
[video=youtube;tA_khOc2ZjA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA_khOc2ZjA[/video]
That's some funny stuff. Woman's wig flies off; woman pushes man so he trips over someone on floor. Good mix.
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BradC
Guest
Come on unclefester, stick with the topic. Do you have the intestinal fortitude or are you sentimental?
Let's DO talk about hyprocracy.
The church is the BODY of CHRIST, not the building, correct?
Members of the Body of Christ are members of Christian Chat, correct?
Lutherans believe the doctrine "women aren't allowed to usurp authority over men", correct?
This means in your beliefs that women teaching to, preaching to, & correcting men is what this is talking about, correct?
You are a Luthern, correct?
You are correcting, arguing with, & judging men in this forum, correct?
This is sin in your denomination, correct?
WHY IN THE WORLD would anyone listen to a woman who consistantly sins against her own beliefs, BY HER OWN STANDARDS playing the hypocrite, & calling others hypocrites?
It seems to me you have BIYE Syndrome (Beam In Your Eye)
Beliefs and Practices LCMS
Women in the Church
PG 31
The Biblical material focuses on the areas of marriage and the
church. However, whenever the subordination of women to men in
marriage and in the church becomes a matter of domination and
whenever anyone, man or woman, behaves in an autocratic, domineering
way, such conduct stems not from the creation but from the
fall. Men honor the rule of God by submitting themselves to His will
concerning their attitude and conduct toward women. Attitudes and
actions which suggest that women are insignificant or inferior, or
that they have no valid existence apart from men, originate in the
fall. Moreover, such a posture toward women is inconsistent with the
example of Jesus' governance of those who live in a subordinate
relationship to Him (Eph. 5:25). At the same time, the fact that
Scripture speaks of woman being subordinate to man does not rob
women of their purpose in life or make them only appendages of
men. Both male and female are members of the Body of Christ. They
both share in ruling God's creation and in the proclamation of the
gospel. A third principle emerges, then, to guide us in determining
the service of women in the church today: Subordination, when
applied to the relationship of women and men in the church,
expresses a divinely established relationship in which one looks to
the other, but not in a domineering sense. Subordination is for the
sake of orderliness and unity.
D. The Exercise of Authority
The three previous Scriptural principles concerning women in
the church converge in St. Paul's specific directives regarding their
speaking and teaching in the congregation at worship. (1 Cor.
14:33b-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-15)
1. Silence. At first glance the apostle's presumption that women
will pray and prophesy (1 Cor. 11:5) appears to be in contradiction to
his command for silence in 1 Corinthians 14. Commentators have
offered a variety of solutions to the difficulties which arise when
1 Corinthians 11 is compared with 1 Corinthians 14. One solution
proposed is that a distinction should be made between two kinds of
church meetings in these chapters, the one a family, nonplenary
meeting (chapter 11), the other an assembly of the entire congrega-
tion (chapter 14). Another solution emphasizes a distinction between
two kinds of speaking. According to this proposal "to speak" in
chapter 14 means "to ask questions," while chapter 11 refers to
ecstatic speech. Full clarity perhaps is not possible. However, the
following conclusions seem warranted.
First, that Paul is not commanding absolute,47 unqualified silence
is evident from the fact that he permits praying and prophesying in
1 Corinthians II. The silence mandated for women in 1 Corinthians 14
does not preclude their praying and prophesying.48 Accordingly, the
apostle is not intimating that women may not participate in the
public singing of the congregation or in the spoken prayers. It should
be noted in this connection that Paul uses the Greek word laleo for
"speak" in 1 Cor. 14:34, which frequently means to "preach" in the
New Testament (See Mark 2:2; Luke 9:11; Acts 4:1; 8:25; I Cm: 2:7;
2 Cor 12:19; Phil. 1:4; et al.), and not lego, which is the more general
term. (The claim that Paul has a different meaning in mind and that
he uses it here to prohibit disturbing chatter is extremely improbable.)
When laleo has a meaning other than religious sppech and
preaching in the New Testament, this is usually made clear by an
object or an adverb (e.g., to speak like a child, 1 Cor. 13:11; to speak
like a fool, 2 Cor. 11:23). Secondly, it must be underscored that Paul's
prohibition that women remain silent and not speak is uttered with
reference to the worship service of the congregation (I Cor. 14:26-33).
Any other interpretation is artificial and improbable. Thus, Paul is
not here demanding that women should be silent at all times or that they cannot express their sentiments and opinions at church assemblies. The command that women keep silent is a command that they not take charge of the public worship service, specifically the teaching-learning aspects of the service.
33
cont
2. Teaching and Authority. While the thrust of Paul's comments
in 1 Tim. 2:11-15 is similar to that in 1 Corinthians 14, he makes a
more explicit point in this passage. A woman is not to teach or to
have authority over man.
Here, too, the limits of what is forbidden to women by the apostle
have been widely disputed. Some have understood Paul here to be
excluding women from all forms of teaching and exercising authority,
including teaching in a public school or serving in a vocation in
which a woman has men under her direct supervision. This constitutes
a serious misreading of Paul's words. His instructions are
directed to the worship/church setting. No doubt the public prayer
which is regulated in verse 8 would occur during a liturgical service.
The expression "likewise" in verse 9 indicates that the women's
activity occurs in the same domain. In 1 Tim. 3:14-15 the apostle
explains the purpose of his letter to Timothy: "I am writing these
instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one
ought to behave in the household of God .... " The context of this
passage is that of worship/church.
Still, two alternatives remain: 1) women are absolutely prohibited
from every form of teaching or public address; or 2) women are
prohibited from certain types of teaching or public address, especially
from that exercised by the "teaching office," that is, the pastoral
office.
The teaching that Paul forbids women to perform is the latter,
namely, that of the formal, public proclamation of the Christian
faith. The word for teach (didaskein) is used uniformly in this way
throughout 1 Timothy. This term is used in this epistle to refer to
"false teachers" (1:3,7); "overseers" (i.e., pastors) who are "able to
teach" (3:2); the pastor Timothy, who is to "teach" (4:11), to "attend
to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching" ( 4: 13),
to "take heed ... to your teaching" (4:16), and to "teach and exhort
these things" (6:2); the "elders ... who labor in preaching and
teaching" (5:17); and especially the apostle Paul himself, who is a
"teacher of the Gentiles." (2:7)
Therefore, Paul is not contending that Christian women are to
avoid teaching under any circumstances. Elsewhere the New Testament
indicates that women did teach in a context other than the
community worship service (e.g., Priscilla, Acts 18:26). The apostolic
restriction in 1 Timothy 2 pertains to that teaching of God's Word
which involves an essential function of the pastoral office. The word
didaske1:n is inappropriately applied to the Sunday school teacher,
34
cont
in 1 Tim. 2:11-15 is similar to that in 1 Corinthians 14, he makes a
more explicit point in this passage. A woman is not to teach or to
have authority over man.
Here, too, the limits of what is forbidden to women by the apostle
have been widely disputed. Some have understood Paul here to be
excluding women from all forms of teaching and exercising authority,
including teaching in a public school or serving in a vocation in
which a woman has men under her direct supervision. This constitutes
a serious misreading of Paul's words. His instructions are
directed to the worship/church setting. No doubt the public prayer
which is regulated in verse 8 would occur during a liturgical service.
The expression "likewise" in verse 9 indicates that the women's
activity occurs in the same domain. In 1 Tim. 3:14-15 the apostle
explains the purpose of his letter to Timothy: "I am writing these
instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one
ought to behave in the household of God .... " The context of this
passage is that of worship/church.
Still, two alternatives remain: 1) women are absolutely prohibited
from every form of teaching or public address; or 2) women are
prohibited from certain types of teaching or public address, especially
from that exercised by the "teaching office," that is, the pastoral
office.
The teaching that Paul forbids women to perform is the latter,
namely, that of the formal, public proclamation of the Christian
faith. The word for teach (didaskein) is used uniformly in this way
throughout 1 Timothy. This term is used in this epistle to refer to
"false teachers" (1:3,7); "overseers" (i.e., pastors) who are "able to
teach" (3:2); the pastor Timothy, who is to "teach" (4:11), to "attend
to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching" ( 4: 13),
to "take heed ... to your teaching" (4:16), and to "teach and exhort
these things" (6:2); the "elders ... who labor in preaching and
teaching" (5:17); and especially the apostle Paul himself, who is a
"teacher of the Gentiles." (2:7)
Therefore, Paul is not contending that Christian women are to
avoid teaching under any circumstances. Elsewhere the New Testament
indicates that women did teach in a context other than the
community worship service (e.g., Priscilla, Acts 18:26). The apostolic
restriction in 1 Timothy 2 pertains to that teaching of God's Word
which involves an essential function of the pastoral office. The word
didaske1:n is inappropriately applied to the Sunday school teacher,
34
cont
Cont
the Christian day school teacher, the home Bible study teacher. As
Bishop Bo Giertz of Sweden suggests, "When in 1 Tim. 2:12 the word
didaskein is used, it is a rather pregnant expression (the word
means: to be a teacher in the church and to be charged by God with
the proclamation of His Word)." Teaching which does not "coincide
with that commission to which the New Testament refers when
using the words didaskalos or didaskein" is not in view here.49
3. Authority. The question now arises, what is the relationship
between teaching, learning, and exercising "authority over man"?
The verb Paul employs in 1 Tim. 2:12 (authentein) occurs only here in
the New Testament and is never used in the Septuagint. Thus, there
is no explicit Scriptural background for interpreting its meaning.
Consequently, it is open to varying definitions, some of them quite
incongruent with Paul's actual concern.
One writer has observed that some interpreters separate the
components of Paul's instructions in these verses, making them
independent of one another: that women a) learn in silence; b) be in
all submission; c) not teach; and d) not exercise authority over
men.50 However, when the apostle's phrases are separated in this
way and used to formulate a code of rules concerning the role of
women, both the text and women are abused. The damage is
compounded if they are severed from the context. The result of this
way of proceeding is that this passage is taken to mean that women
should never, under any circumstances, teach in the church and that
they must always, in every circumstance, submit to men by never
making any decisions which may impact on them.
In point of fact, however, a careful review of this passage
indicates that the terms "teach" and "exercise authority" parallel
each other. They are intentionally linked. The kind of teaching
referred to in the passage is tied to exercising authority. The
authority forbidden to women here is that of the pastoral office, that
is, one "who labors in preaching and teaching." (1 Tim. 5:17; cf.
1 Thess. 5:12)
A p1·oper understanding of Paul here is of enormous significance
for the discussion of the service of women in the church. One cannot
divorce the phrase "nor have authority over man" from the pastoral
office and then apply it in rather arbitrary ways. For example, if we
35
cont
the Christian day school teacher, the home Bible study teacher. As
Bishop Bo Giertz of Sweden suggests, "When in 1 Tim. 2:12 the word
didaskein is used, it is a rather pregnant expression (the word
means: to be a teacher in the church and to be charged by God with
the proclamation of His Word)." Teaching which does not "coincide
with that commission to which the New Testament refers when
using the words didaskalos or didaskein" is not in view here.49
3. Authority. The question now arises, what is the relationship
between teaching, learning, and exercising "authority over man"?
The verb Paul employs in 1 Tim. 2:12 (authentein) occurs only here in
the New Testament and is never used in the Septuagint. Thus, there
is no explicit Scriptural background for interpreting its meaning.
Consequently, it is open to varying definitions, some of them quite
incongruent with Paul's actual concern.
One writer has observed that some interpreters separate the
components of Paul's instructions in these verses, making them
independent of one another: that women a) learn in silence; b) be in
all submission; c) not teach; and d) not exercise authority over
men.50 However, when the apostle's phrases are separated in this
way and used to formulate a code of rules concerning the role of
women, both the text and women are abused. The damage is
compounded if they are severed from the context. The result of this
way of proceeding is that this passage is taken to mean that women
should never, under any circumstances, teach in the church and that
they must always, in every circumstance, submit to men by never
making any decisions which may impact on them.
In point of fact, however, a careful review of this passage
indicates that the terms "teach" and "exercise authority" parallel
each other. They are intentionally linked. The kind of teaching
referred to in the passage is tied to exercising authority. The
authority forbidden to women here is that of the pastoral office, that
is, one "who labors in preaching and teaching." (1 Tim. 5:17; cf.
1 Thess. 5:12)
A p1·oper understanding of Paul here is of enormous significance
for the discussion of the service of women in the church. One cannot
divorce the phrase "nor have authority over man" from the pastoral
office and then apply it in rather arbitrary ways. For example, if we
35
cont
Boiled down Stephen it DOES not mean that we are NOT to rebuke another that is in continued,unrepentant sin. It means that women are not to take the headship,leadership role in the church. Women are to correct another be it man or woman.
That is the LCMS stand.
Now yall are just biting and devouring each other.
Gal_5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Make peace and forgive each other.
Gal_5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Make peace and forgive each other.
You are speaking straight from the scripture God gives us.
The idea that this church often believes in the creed of "I am better than YOU are" that leads to biting each other is what started this tread. Christians want to be part of the family of God where all children treat each other as such. If a disagreement becomes serious, it is taken to the church for discipline, not personally devouring each other.
The idea was to watch this church for this before you join it. Not trash and devour.
Also speaking from scripture we have shown the doctrine of separation to be not only proper and just, but perhaps a requirement for salvation. What fellowship can light have with darkness? If exposing false doctrines of many religions for what they are is also a scriptural call (Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them) then it is not mere backbiting but rather reproof, rebuke and I hope, - a training up and call to do what is right. This we are told is what the scripture is for.
If there are particular doctrines that one would discuss relative to a religion, that would be good to discuss also. The Doctrine of Separation (Doctrine of Fellowship/non-fellowship) has been delineated for review and discussion. I assert it is proper and just and probably necessary for salvation. I believe zone does a decent, albeit fervent job with exposing or attempting to expose false doctrines - perhaps to an excess sometimes, but the manifestation of false doctrines is excessive. I would agree that a discussion on the doctrinal particulars rather than some vague 'somebody told me this or that' accusation would be more mature. Perhaps we could revisit the opening post - or - move on to doctrinal particulars. No organization or entity owns the truth. The Free gift of god is the scriptures we can now possess, study and thankfully discuss on forums such as this. From it, with a proper mindset, we have the opportunity to know the truth that can set us free.
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Tintin
Guest
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BradC
Guest
Good pic. Note it is not Missouri Synod Lutheran, these are some of the guys who won't be Missouri Synod.
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cfultz3
Guest
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
