What is Dispensationalism?

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry, but your post makes it too difficult to understand where you are coming from, in regard to what you quoted. Adding unrelated things beyond the scope of the post. Perhaps a point by point. For example, do you believe that the figures of lion, bear, leopard and 4th "beast", within Daniel's prophetic dream, represent the actual kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and the Roman Empire, and that Daniel's prophecy was fulfiulled steadily over a period of hundreds of years? If so then your approach to Old Testament prophecy is within the tradition of historicism. Is this too difficult to understand, or can you grasp it this far? If you understand it do you agree that you are historicist when it comes to Old Testament prophecy?
TRADITIONAL HISTORICISM

Are you saying they did not represent those kingdoms?

I do not get what you are saying here or why. could you explain further? I will try to respond, but I may have misunderstood you (ps I do not click on links. to many viruses and other dangers by clicking on unknown links.

Nothing which happened post scripture being inspired can be proved to be from God., all we have is what people claim is true, and everyone believes different.

That is why Paul made it clear. we are to test ALL things by using the inspired word of God. to see if they are from god. or from peoples own beliefs, which are apposed to God.

Using things outside of scripture (like many do) to test and say this proves it is from God was a tactic of the jews and their manmade religion and doctrines. As we can see. Those in the church did the same things and made the mistake the jews made. by considering all these so called 'writtings of the fathers, and creeds" to be equal with scripture. You would think we would learn from the mistake of the jews. But as usual, mankind is so sinfull an dproud, we keep making the same mistakes over and over without learning a thing.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Are you saying they did not represent those kingdoms?

It is my understanding that they do. If that is also your understanding then you are a historicist, when it comes to Old Testament Bible prophecy. Understand?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, God's word has always been available. Aren't you aware of the English line of Reformation Bibles (Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's, Geneva, etc.)?


And how about the Old Latin bibles?

How about the old greek bibles. and hebrew bibles? and all the ones which have come since? Has God not been able to use them?

Your claim is there is one bible.. How can this be true? your relegating God to one book, and keeping him from using other books, which are just as good.

finally. Why did you not answer my post? are all of the many hundreds or thousands of people who came to god using the NASB, the NIV NKJV and others only, and have never seen a KJV bible headed to hell, because they have not seen gods word??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is my understanding that they do. If that is also your understanding then you are a historicist, when it comes to Old Testament Bible prophecy. Understand?

ok. Just not sure what this has to do with post scripture history and the 19th century movement which departed from the roman church

 

[PeteWaldo]

lol. Nice try. the church of rome took most belief systems of the early church and twisted them.

As in the case of Roman Church Jesuit Francisco Ribera's counter-reformation invention of futurism, that was later adopted by Edward Irving and embellished by John Nelson Darby in his 19th century eschatological scheme, that was popularized in the 20th century church by C.I. Scofield.
FUTURISM AND DISPENSATIONALISM

And as in the case of the Roman Church Jesuit Luis Alcazar's counter-reformation invention of preterism, that was used in counter-reformation arguments against the reformers.
PARTIAL PRETERISM

Neither of which were bought into by those great men of God of the Reformation, however both of which began to come into vogue during the 19th century, and took over in the 20th century church. Perhaps just as prophesied:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

this 19th century crap is old.

I agree. If the "church" would simply seek out the truth in the tradition of historicism, it might be able to get over its strong delusion and be able to see Muhammad as THE false prophet of the book of Revelation, THE FALSE PROPHET MUHAMMAD and his Islamic kingdom "beast" as the final foe of God's people.
THE BEAST

 

[PeteWaldo]

Sorry my friend, but it cannot be argued that John Nelson Darby is the author of the eschatological scheme that you have been taught, as confirmed by one of the most highly regarded and studied futurists, Dr. Harry Ironside:

THE GREAT MYSTERY OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH​

Throughout the writings of the apostle Paul he again and again refers to a wondrous secret, which he designates in a special way as "the mystery," or "the great mystery." Other mysteries he treats of, as we have seen, and shall notice later; but there is one that is preeminently such. It occupies much of his ministry, and is clearly the chief gem in the diadem of the truth of Christianity; yet for centuries it was almost entirely lost sight of. In fact, until brought to the fore through the writings and the preaching and teaching of a distinguished ex-clergyman, Mr. J. N. Darby, in the early part of the last century, it is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon throughout a period of sixteen hundred years! If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene; the theological treatises of the scholastic divines; Roman Catholic writers of all shades of thought; the literature of the Reformation; the sermons and expositions of the Puritans; and the general theological works of the day. He will find "the mystery" conspicuous by its absence. Of ordinances exalted to the place of mysteries, as in heathen rites, he will find much; but as to the mystery, which to the apostle was so unspeakably precious, rarely a reference!" ​

FUTURISM AND DISPENSATIONALISM

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I find it pretty amazing that so many are blinded to what really happened.

in the 3rd century, people hated the jews. They would not even allow them to own property, to own or conduct their own business. or anything else. they were outcasts, hated even among those who claimed to be following God. To even think of the idea that God was somehow going to restore to Israel that which rightly belonged to her if she repented would be against their thinking, and considered blasphemy.

The view was also held in high regard that the Church had taken the place of Israel (replacement theology) and that God was done with Israel, and would no longer be dealing with her. to say otherwise would be considered herecy, and most likely blasphemy "who would give anything to the jew, who crucified our savior?" was common thinking. and the thousand years?? well since the church replaced israel. well this must be the thousand years now. with christ ruling through thr church.

As I have already proved (from the roman churches own website) what they did to heretics in the 3rd century and beyond, is it any wonder, if anyone believed in a future restoration, and future kingdom, they would suffer those horrendous punishments? and no one would openly admit they even believed it??

so should it surprise anyone that no one for the hundreds of years under roman tyranny would openly admit to believing in a future kingdom? NO! why would they risk life, property and limb on this belief, which is not even salvic in nature?

yet people still want to believ in this theory, and what is their excuse? the same excuse all romans us. No one believed it for hundreds of years. so it can;t be true. No one believed it until (after the tyrany and power of Rome fell) the reformation. so we must not believe it.

Hogwash! Stick to scripture. prove it from scripture. Or else continue to follow men!

 

[PeteWaldo]

I find it pretty amazing that so many are blinded to what really happened.

So do I when one-third of mankind in the world today believe that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead (whether they are born again Christians or not), as revealed through the prophets and witnesses of the 1600 year record of revelation of the one true God to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants over 3500 years.

While a directly opposing one quarter of mankind in the anti-religion of Islam are required to disbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel, thus reject the sin-atoning shed blood of the Messiah, and deny (and blaspheme) the Son of God - as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone.
MUHAMMAD AND ISLAM IN BIBLE PROPHECY

 

[PeteWaldo]

No one believed it until (after the tyrany and power of Rome fell) the reformation. so we must not believe it.

So then why don't you at least investigate approaching all bible prophecy uniformly, through the traditional historicist approach through which those great men of God of the Reformation - that you seem to think so highly of - understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled?
TRADITIONAL HISTORICISM

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So then why don't you at least investigate approaching all bible prophecy uniformly, through the traditional historicist approach through which those great men of God of the Reformation - that you seem to think so highly of - understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled?
TRADITIONAL HISTORICISM

1. I do investigate all prophesy the same. I interpret it the same, and I see it the same.
2. Again, I will not click on any link, if you want to cut and past, I will read. otherwise I have no clue what your talking about.

 

[jahsoul]

The view was also held in high regard that the Church had taken the place of Israel (replacement theology) and that God was done with Israel, and would no longer be dealing with her.

Hogwash! Stick to scripture. prove it from scripture. Or else continue to follow men!

Actually, scripture tells us that it is not a so called "replacement theology" (which ironically, I only hear dispensationalist use...*shrugs*) but coming to Christ, we are of one body.

 

[PeteWaldo]

1. I do investigate all prophesy the same. I interpret it the same, and I see it the same.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were a futurist/dispensationalist.
If you are a futurist, then your claim is untrue, because you are a historicist for Old Testament prophecy but a futurist for New Testament prophecy and the book of Revelation. Specifically rejecting the approach of those great men of God of the reformation, in favor of John Nelson Darby's approach.
While many of those links print as appearing to be repetition, each of those links goes to a different specific anchor on a page, that directly deals with the content of my post.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, scripture tells us that it is not a so called "replacement theology" (which ironically, I only hear dispensationalist use...*shrugs*) but coming to Christ, we are of one body.

Actually. Scripture says we have ALWAYS been one body. no matter what time period on earth scripture is talking about. So I am not sure what your trying to prove here. It has never been us and them, it has always been one body of Christ.

this does not negate the fact that God did make a covenant with a certain people. and claim that covenant would be forever. And the "replacement" theology which states that covenant no longer applies to that certain people group. but now belongs to everyone. even though that particular covenant, or promise made between god and that particular group of people NEVER had a thing to do with who belonged to the true body of Christ, and who did not.

Thus where the term replacement theology comes from.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were a futurist/dispensationalist.
If you are a futurist, then your claim is untrue, because you are a historicist for Old Testament prophecy but a futurist for New Testament prophecy and the book of Revelation.
While many of those links print as appearing to be repetition, each of those links goes to a different specific anchor on a page, that directly deals with the content of my post.

lol.. You make no sense.

I can not be a historacist of OT prophesy unless I believe ALL OT PROPHESY has been fulfilled. I do not. Many OT prophesies are still awaiting fulfillment. As with the new.

Again, As I said, I interpret all prophesy the same.

Now if your saying I use history to determine if prophesy has been fulfilled or not (as to what it claims in totallity) then I might be a historicist.

 

[jahsoul]

Actually. Scripture says we have ALWAYS been one body. no matter what time period on earth scripture is talking about. So I am not sure what your trying to prove here. It has never been us and them, it has always been one body of Christ.

this does not negate the fact that God did make a covenant with a certain people. and claim that covenant would be forever. And the "replacement" theology which states that covenant no longer applies to that certain people group. but now belongs to everyone. even though that particular covenant, or promise made between god and that particular group of people NEVER had a thing to do with who belonged to the true body of Christ, and who did not.

Thus where the term replacement theology comes from.

Wasn't trying to prove anything, just making the simple point that we are one body and the only people that use the term "replacement theology" are those that believe in dispensation.

Also, who did God make the covenant with?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wasn't trying to prove anything, just making the simple point that we are one body and the only people that use the term "replacement theology" are those that believe in dispensation.

Also, who did God make the covenant with?

yet most people who believe in dispensations also believe there is only one body, and only one body. so your point is misleading..

as to who God made a covenant with. God made many covenants. which one would you like to know?

 

[jahsoul]

yet most people who believe in dispensations also believe there is only one body, and only one body. so your point is misleading..

as to who God made a covenant with. God made many covenants. which one would you like to know?

The "certain people" that you referred to in your reply.

My point isn't misleading. Show me where someone who is not a dispensationalist uses that term. I usually see the term hurled at people who don't believe that Jews are the covenant people...*shrugs*

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The "certain people" that you referred to in your reply.

you mean these people?

Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:“Get out of your country,From your familyAnd from your father’s house,To a land that I will show you.[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will make you a great nation;

Gen 13:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; [SUP]15 [/SUP]for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants FOREVER.

Gen 15:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. [SUP]18 [/SUP]On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God.”

was this covenant made with a particular people? or the "one body" you spoke of?

 

[jahsoul]

you mean these people?

Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:“Get out of your country,From your familyAnd from your father’s house,To a land that I will show you.[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will make you a great nation;

Gen 13:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; [SUP]15 [/SUP]for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants FOREVER.

Gen 15:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. [SUP]18 [/SUP]On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God.”

was this covenant made with a particular people? or the "one body" you spoke of?

I guess I should have specified.....specifically, what particular people was this covenant made to?

 

[PeteWaldo]

lol.. You make no sense.

I can not be a historacist of OT prophesy unless I believe ALL OT PROPHESY has been fulfilled.

I recommend you try learning about something before making false statements about it. Try Wikipedia for example:

"Historicism is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which attempts to associate biblical prophecies with actual historical events and identify symbolic beings with historical persons or societies. The main texts of interest are apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, and historicist methods have been applied to ancient Jewish history, the Roman Empire, Mohammedism, the Papacy, the Modern era and even into the End time." - quoted from Wikipedia

It has nothing to do with whether prophecy is currently fulfilled or not. In the example I gave you of Daniel's beasts, you are a historicist by definition, and the prophecy of his 4 beasts just happens to have been fulfilled.

But you reject the traditional historicist approach of those great men of God of the Reformation to follow John Nelson Darby's 19th century eschatological scheme.
FUTURISM AND DISPENSATIONALISM

I do not. Many OT prophesies are still awaiting fulfillment. As with the new.

Again, As I said, I interpret all prophesy the same.

Again, NOT if you are a futurist.

Now if your saying I use history to determine if prophesy has been fulfilled or not (as to what it claims in totallity) then I might be a historicist.

So why don't you revisit my post on the 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today, who follow THE false prophet Muhammad, and thus must DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel, DENY the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood as articles of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.

Poor deluded souls that are SO ANTICHRIST that they are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus name, is to commit the single most "heinous" and ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN in Muhammad's anti-religion.
UNFORGIVABLE SIN OF SHIRK

THE false prophet Muhammad commanding his followers to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people to DISbelieving the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood as articles of "faith" in Muhammad alone.
JIHAD AND ISLAMIC TERRORISM

Now who did John Nelson Darby teach you that THE false prophet is?