The Israel of God

[BradC]

Romans 9:1-15 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect (who believed) obtained it, but the rest (of Israel) were hardened (hardened by who, does not God hardeneth whom he will Rom 9:18), 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs for ever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! (Are we to assume that there might be a FULL inclusion? Shame on us for doing such a thing, for God would never extend that kind of mercy)

...15 For if Israel's rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? (Are we to believe that God has a plan to accept them again after they were rejected? How heretical of us to believe such a thing from God)

Hard to kick against these pricks, don't you think?

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

You just can't simply be that ignorant! I understand what all of these Scriptures are saying at face value, and your futile attempt to make them fit into your 21st Century doctrines. But Paul wrote these things before 70ad and the end of Old Covenant Israel! These things were written in real time in the 50s and 60s ad; both to the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul was a Jew, and there was no different between him and the rest of the Jews concerning salvation. There is no other salvation then Jesus Christ! Old Covenant Israel was abolished FOREVER in 70 ad. You have taken these scriptures out of context and out of their proper time frame, and I understand this is what you've been taught to do. The Gospel was preached to all of the unfaithful Jews who were cast out of the Kingdom unto this very day, and were cut off from Israel because of their unbelief! But, God still has His Olive Branch extended to that new Jewish State in Israel; that is Jesus Christ and Him crucified! There is no more salvation for them then that!

 

[BradC]

Romans 9:1-15 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect (who believed) obtained it, but the rest (of Israel) were hardened (hardened by who, does not God hardeneth whom he will Rom 9:18), 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs for ever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! (Are we to assume that there might be a FULL inclusion? Shame on us for doing such a thing, for God would never extend that kind of mercy)

...15 For if Israel's rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? (Are we to believe that God has a plan to accept them again after they were rejected? How heretical of us to believe such a thing from God)

Hard to kick against these pricks, don't you think?

Correction: Not Romans 9 but Romans 11 (above post)

You think that everything recorded in Romans 11 stopped and came to a halt in 70AD. God finally got the chance to 'bam, bam' Israel and slap them down and take them out with the old covenant. I have taken nothing out of context, but I have made an emphasis because of how you people believe the scriptures. You don't like the facts presented in Rom 11 because they are so blatantly obvious and you try to negate the obvious. You are not interested in Paul's intent concerning his people nor in their future as Paul relates to it. You are trying to make others believe that Romans 11 only applied to the Jews before 70AD, are you in your right mind? Does Romans 11 have any application for any of the Jews or for the people of Israel after 70AD?

If there is no application then we can exclude them and the scriptures as obsolete. Is that what you want to do and come to the conclusion that Israel, those who now make up Israel and consider themselves to be Jews,(who became a nation once again in 1948) has no future with the living God by promise and are but frauds and have no concern with the coming of Messiah? Are these in Israel at present of no concern to the living God because he has no promise or covenant with them to deliver them as a people and nation? Is that what you believe concerning these people who are God's elect represented by a remnant? There is no salvation in any other but in the name of Christ and they can have deliverance in no other, but to dismiss them without mercy on the basis of 70AD is mind boggling.

 

[BradC]

You believe the church to be the Israel of God, who you are part, and you don't believe in the rapture of the church as a separate catching away of believers before the great tribulation. You believe this Israel will go through all tribulation until the second coming of Christ which means that believers would come in contact with the proposition of the mark, the name of the beast, or the number of his name. My question to you is this. If we are not to take on any of these concerning the beast, you must have an idea what these are. From your studies what are these that relate to the beast that we are to avoid and what is image of the beast that we are not to worship or be killed? Have you or anyone you know been offered or propositioned to take on these concerning the beast so that you can buy and sell? I do not know what that mark is nor have I been offered that mark. Is it possible that a believers can take on that mark in their forehead or hand and not even know it? Maybe you would like to respond to this on another thread and go into Rev 13:17, 14:9,11, 15:2, 16:2, 19:20, 20:40.

 

[Hoffco]

BradC You did a super job of proving that the "spiritual Israel" is indeed the same as the Church of God inthe N.T.; and in the N.T. The "seed of Abraham is the True Church of God in the O.T. and the N.T.. This is a "secret" known only to the real student of the Bible who knows how to "contextualize" the Scriptures, OR "rightly divid" (relate) the Scriptures. BUT, you made a BIG mistake when you said the "Church and Israel are the say"; and Linda caught you with you "pants down" and gave you a deserved spanking,LOL, NOW, you may, repent and all will be forgiven,ok.? You should have said, "Spiritual" Israel is the same as the Church of God, and the Church is called the "Israel of God" in the N.T.. God began His Church with Adam and Eve, His first "elect " ones. Love to all Hoffco ps,. I dont think the others ,like Zone and our Despensational friends,are ever going to learn to "contextualize the Bible.

 

[BradC]

BradC You did a super job of proving that the "spiritual Israel" is indeed the same as the Church of God inthe N.T.; and in the N.T. The "seed of Abraham is the True Church of God in the O.T. and the N.T.. This is a "secret" known only to the real student of the Bible who knows how to "contextualize" the Scriptures, OR "rightly divid" (relate) the Scriptures. BUT, you made a BIG mistake when you said the "Church and Israel are the say"; and Linda caught you with you "pants down" and gave you a deserved spanking,LOL, NOW, you may, repent and all will be forgiven,ok.? You should have said, "Spiritual" Israel is the same as the Church of God, and the Church is called the "Israel of God" in the N.T.. God began His Church with Adam and Eve, His first "elect " ones. Love to all Hoffco ps,. I dont think the others ,like Zone and our Despensational friends,are ever going to learn to "contextualize the Bible.

Sorry, but I don't know what you are referring to, help me out.

 

[Hoffco]

Sorry, I praised the wrong person, svedbygrace was the one who did the great job, not BradC. Brad, you were out in space some where,?, I could not figure 0ut who was Mocking Paul's clear teaching on the future of the nation of Israel in Romans 11. Any one who reads the news papers knows that God is now working with His chosen nation, Israel, once again. And the "fullness" of Israel will be yet in the future, at the time of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus' 2nd coming. Love to all Hoffco

 

[zone]

No you are wrong, the Church is every bit the New Covenant Israel, Who is laid upon the foundation of Old Covenant Israel. Paul knew who the Israel of God was and is!

wow....profound.
who knew

that sounds like.....Christianity

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Correction: Not Romans 9 but Romans 11 (above post)

You think that everything recorded in Romans 11 stopped and came to a halt in 70AD. God finally got the chance to 'bam, bam' Israel and slap them down and take them out with the old covenant. I have taken nothing out of context, but I have made an emphasis because of how you people believe the scriptures. You don't like the facts presented in Rom 11 because they are so blatantly obvious and you try to negate the obvious. You are not interested in Paul's intent concerning his people nor in their future as Paul relates to it. You are trying to make others believe that Romans 11 only applied to the Jews before 70AD, are you in your right mind? Does Romans 11 have any application for any of the Jews or for the people of Israel after 70AD?

If there is no application then we can exclude them and the scriptures as obsolete. Is that what you want to do and come to the conclusion that Israel, those who now make up Israel and consider themselves to be Jews,(who became a nation once again in 1948) has no future with the living God by promise and are but frauds and have no concern with the coming of Messiah? Are these in Israel at present of no concern to the living God because he has no promise or covenant with them to deliver them as a people and nation? Is that what you believe concerning these people who are God's elect represented by a remnant? There is no salvation in any other but in the name of Christ and they can have deliverance in no other, but to dismiss them without mercy on the basis of 70AD is mind boggling.

Which part of Old Covenant Israel becoming obsolete don't you understand? Something had to be in existence for it to become obsolete and exist no more ever again! And, even more than that it is a legal term. The Jews in the New Jewish State couldn't give a flip one about Christ Jesus in any form, what's wrong with you rambling on like that?! The Jews in this New Jewish State were the descendants of those who were cast out of the Kingdom of God unto this very day; they are not the Israel of God! You people are mad! Jesus is the TRUE Israel, the faithful of Old Covenant are with HIM, we who are now in Christ Jesus and are called by His Name, and have COVENANT with God, are New Covenant Israel! Either, Greek or Jew! The Nation of Israel who was once called by His Name, The Chosen Nation of Israel does not exist any more: Except now as the foundation of the Kingdom of God in Christ Jesus! It was abolished, or made obsolete from this earth forever. There is now no more righteous line of Israel upon the earth except in Christ Jesus! The doctrine of Dispensationalism has spun this rabbit hole that you find yourself in, and your arguments only make since to you, as you stumble around in this place. Hope you can find your way out! many blessings

 

[zone]

Correction: Not Romans 9 but Romans 11 (above post)

You think that everything recorded in Romans 11 stopped and came to a halt in 70AD. God finally got the chance to 'bam, bam' Israel and slap them down and take them out with the old covenant. I have taken nothing out of context, but I have made an emphasis because of how you people believe the scriptures. You don't like the facts presented in Rom 11 because they are so blatantly obvious and you try to negate the obvious. You are not interested in Paul's intent concerning his people nor in their future as Paul relates to it. You are trying to make others believe that Romans 11 only applied to the Jews before 70AD, are you in your right mind? Does Romans 11 have any application for any of the Jews or for the people of Israel after 70AD?

If there is no application then we can exclude them

why Redster....

it is y'all who say Israel was excluded.

Christians know jews are saved the very same way they were 2000 years ago - the same way gentiles are.
The PLAIN Gospel.
ever heard of it?

 

[zone]

You believe the church to be the Israel of God, who you are part

yep.

this is true.
we who are part of the Israel of God; The ONE TREE; ONE fold....the church is the very same Israel of God He always had - the faithful remnant part.

the others were cut off.

if they continue not in unbelief....too bad - He blinded them so they can't be grafted bac.........huh?

LOL.

 

[zone]

BradC You did a super job of proving that the "spiritual Israel" is indeed the same as the Church of God inthe N.T.; and in the N.T. The "seed of Abraham is the True Church of God in the O.T. and the N.T.. This is a "secret" known only to the real student of the Bible who knows how to "contextualize" the Scriptures, OR "rightly divid" (relate) the Scriptures. BUT, you made a BIG mistake when you said the "Church and Israel are the say"; and Linda caught you with you "pants down" and gave you a deserved spanking,LOL, NOW, you may, repent and all will be forgiven,ok.? You should have said, "Spiritual" Israel is the same as the Church of God, and the Church is called the "Israel of God" in the N.T.. God began His Church with Adam and Eve, His first "elect " ones. Love to all Hoffco ps,. I dont think the others ,like Zone and our Despensational friends,are ever going to learn to "contextualize the Bible.

i'm workin' on it Hoff

 

[zone]

Sorry, but I don't know what you are referring to, help me out.

you don't want help.
you're refusing it.

why i don't know....shame?

 

[zone]

Sorry, I praised the wrong person, svedbygrace was the one who did the great job, not BradC. Brad, you were out in space some where,?, I could not figure 0ut who was Mocking Paul's clear teaching on the future of the nation of Israel in Romans 11. Any one who reads the news papers knows that God is now working with His chosen nation, Israel, once again. And the "fullness" of Israel will be yet in the future, at the time of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus' 2nd coming. Love to all Hoffco

the fullness of their inclusion is the fullness (completion/filling up) of God's Household - when "Israel" who then, or currently refuses Christ, turns to Him....if they do.

what would that be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?

 

[iamsoandso]

roman's 2;27-29,,,,,,,,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

roman's 2;27-29,,,,,,,,,

'
rom 2 does not make rom 11 null and void.

don't fall for the trap and puff yourself up as paul warns.

 

[Isdaniel]

the fullness of their inclusion is the fullness (completion/filling up) of God's Household - when "Israel" who then, or currently refuses Christ, turns to Him....if they do.

what would that be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?

Zechariah 12
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

 

[iamsoandso]

'
rom 2 does not make rom 11 null and void.

don't fall for the trap and puff yourself up as paul warns.

Deuteronomy 10;16,,,,or Deuteronomy 30;6,,,,,,,are good examples of the same

 

[Linda70]

Hoffco and svedbygrace are incorrect. The Israel of God is not the Church.

"The "seed of Abraham is the True Church of God in the O.T. and the N.T.."

This is not Scriptural Hoffco. Just because svedbygrace spouts out Scripture verses out of context, doesn't mean he's correct.

There is also no such thing as "spiritual" Israel.

Is The Church The New Israel? by Moshe Gold

Using the interpretive tools by which the Bible validates itself, we discover that the Church is not the new Israel, not a spiritual form of Israel, and has not taken the place of Israel.

When and how did the majority of Christianity determine it was Israel?**

The Scriptures teach us to build on Christ (1 Corinthians 10:3-15) who confirms the witness of the Prophets and has given authority to the Apostles. (Ephesians 2:20-22). This is the true foundation. This foundation was undermined with the absence of authoritative and centralized Jewish leadership in the Church, especially after the failed Second Jewish Revolt against Rome (A.D. 135). This interpretive and instructive void led to the rise of apologists not trained by the Apostolic Church nor understanding God’s unconditional love for the Jewish people.

The authoritative center of instruction shifted to Alexandria, Egypt where, while attempting to reach the non-Jewish Hellenistic Gentile population with the Gospel, the New Testament message was synthesized through Greek philosophic thought. To a lesser extent, this had already been done by a Jewish commentator named Philo in an effort to express certain Judaic theological concepts in a Hellenistic manner. However, the difference now was the interpretation of the entire Bible according to the rules of neo-Platonism and Aristotle, rather than those followed by the Apostles. The basis for this interpretive technique was to assume the writing to be an allegory. By doing so, the Bible was interpreted exactly like Greco-Roman mythological writing.

One of the leaders of the Alexandrian school was Origen (A.D. 185-254). Although Hellenistic Christian writers before him already interpreted the Scriptures using this method, which resulted in the Church replacing Israel as the blessed people of God, he is credited with developing the rules for allegorical interpretation. He surmised that each passage has three meanings; the fleshly, psychic, and spiritual. He instructed to avoid the lowest meaning, the normal reading, and seek guidance and inspiration to discern the highest meaning, the allegorical, "the spiritual." His instruction validated the violation of every rule of interpretation used by the Apostles, Jesus, and the Prophets.

Highly acclaimed, he set the basis for others such as Augustine and John Chrysostom, whose anti-Judaic bias was given credibility as theology under this false method of interpretation. Later Church leaders including those of the Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist, Protestant Churches, as well as some Baptist and Evangelical Churches would persist in this error. By doing so, they have helped to polarize Israel and Church, contributed to the proliferation of anti-Judaic rhetoric, and unwittingly become a stumbling block between Israel and the Gospel message. Have you?

**the "it" in that paragraph title means "Israel" (added for clarification). The entire article needs to be read for the context. I just copied and pasted the last part.

Is the Church the New Israel? | Israel News | Bible Prophecies | Proclaiming Messiah | Jewish Awareness Ministries

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Deuteronomy 10;16,,,,or Deuteronomy 30;6,,,,,,,are good examples of the same

Yet they do not negate romans 11.