The Israel of God

BradC · Nov 25, 2013

zone said:

Zone, come on, grow up, you nor anyone else has what it takes to explain this prophecy of Zechariah 12. You can accuse and lay charges as you do but that does not accomplish a thing concerning this chapter and its specifics. Unclefester, Sarah777 or Elin and others do not have the evidence to prove it has been fulfilled either. If you have the evidence that it has been fulfilled then prove it or you have to remain ignorant. At least put it out there instead of avoiding it. Your an adult, so act like one and show me the meat, just on the specifics of the chapter. I don't have to show you a thing because I am not the one making the claim it has been fulfilled, you are, so prove it with evidence. If you ca't prove it, then what does that make you? Prove all things Zone, can you do it? You have avoided this chapter like a plague and it was written before anyone of us were born, so stop using us as an excuse. I know that you can explain this chapter and you are as frustrated as hell is and damned in your understanding of it as the devil. That's a fact and you want no one to know about it because it would rock other people's boat and hurt the reputation you have with them through your understanding of the scriptures, because that is all you have with most of them. The other obvious fact is that you do hate the Jews who have rejected Christ and don't even bother trying to deny it. Do you in the same manner hate Gentiles who have also rejected Christ? I wonder!

BradC · Nov 25, 2013

zone said:

Coming from one who believes in baptismal regeneration for infants and by proxy for families. You, a hater of any and all who ascribe to dispensational truth, laying charges of heresy and other crazy things. One who abhors the state of Israel and probably does not even realize that Christ loved and shed his blood even for those in Israel who reject him in unbelief. I have never heard from you one word of love, grace or mercy for the people of Israel, who have once again become a nation or a prayer for those who would believe and become part of the remnant who would represent and not reject their own kinsman. But you know better and have a better righteousness than others in the church and body of Christ, the new Israel.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

there - fixed it for ya.
guilty as charged.
leave the people out of it.

my hope is The Lord will be kind and lead you out.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

tsk...have to fix it for you again.

abhors the enabling of a nation of unregenerate people attempting to build a carnal RELIGIOUS kingdom that is not theirs to build.

the political machinations of fallen men dont surprise me at all.

but guess which cults claiming the Name of Jesus keep enabling

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

i keep telling you that.
the Gospel is the only hope they have.
not your absurd dispie scheme.

but wait a second...i thought you said the promises of Christ and the Blessings of the New Covenant heaveny kingdom EXCLUDED ISRAEL.

trapped in your own web...spin; spin; spin.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

you mean you have never seen me at the FEAR-FAKE-LOVE-FEST known as Night to Honor Israel (established on the corruption of Genesis 12:3 that a five year old can read and see is FALSE and the Honor to Israel is FAKE - based on a false gospel and fear of the jews)

that is true. you wont see me waving the hexagram flag cheering to nuke Iran or anything like that.

what you apparently never hear (cuz you cant hear anything) - because you think they ARE EXCLUDED:

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

when you severed Daniel`s 70th week, you GUTTED THE GOSPEL.

now you dont understand it.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

WHOA.

STOP THE PRESSES.

The New Israel.........you making a public declaration that you now know youve been deceived and deceiving...

what NEW ISRAEL

i guess i gotta put this in Red33s bag of tricks file for later....

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

let`s see who was excluded from what......and lets see who is a fake lover of the people Israel....

Ephesians 2
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

oh look...it was YOU who was excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

so who is pulling a bait and switch antisemitic REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY on whom

is there another witness

maybe from an Israelite of the flesh:

Romans 15:8
For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed

oh dear....promises; covenant promises made to the patriarchs CONFIRMED.

but - isnt it satan (or some satanic henchman) who confirms that covenant

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

when you gutted this it made you BLIND.

BradC · Nov 25, 2013

zone said:

You know full well that I and many others do not believe that they are excluded from the gospel, but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep saying it. You read too much 'dipsy stuff' and it has made you a little 'dipsy' in the head. There are many more Gentiles that have rejected the gospel and the Christ than the people of Israel have in these last 2,000 plus years and have rejected the Jews right along with it. There are more Gentiles who profess to be Christian then there are Jews who claim to be Jewish and are not of Abraham's seed through Isaac. Do you go around claiming that you are of the Israel of God as a true Jew, one who is of the circumcision of the heart by promise, when you know full well you are a Gentile saved by grace and you have been adopted and graffed into the vine as a wild branch? Do you go around boasting to the Jews that you are a true Jew and they are not, or do you present the gospel in the love and mercy of God as a saved Gentile with the hope that the Holy Spirit would open their eyes to see and ears to hear the salvation of God through Jesus Christ and him crucified? Is that a perverted gospel or the one that we have been given by the Holy Spirit with hope for both the Jew and the Gentile? Not only will the Jews be converted during the time of the tribulation but the Gentiles also, but God is going to use the Jews from the tribes of the children of Israel to do it. Just think of how God's faithfulness to his elect people (the Jews) is going to be witnessed by so many of the nations who are Gentile. Breathtaking!

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

let's seeeee.......who should i listen to?

a crazy person who says he cares about America & jews (Israel)?

[video=youtube;Auf-Su-xZVU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auf-Su-xZVU[/video]

time to drop bombs on Iran, "for" Israel.

oh that would have been a WONDERFUL IDEA....JESUS WOULD HAVE DONE IT.

Ahmadinejad was the New Hitler, right

.....

or should i listen to jews who happily freely live in Iran, and are actually rather patriotic?

In rare public display, Iranian Jews rally in support of nation's nuclear program

Iranian Jewish community, the largest in the region outside Israel and Turkey, tends to keep a low profile.
By The Associated Press | Nov. 19, 2013 | 6:28 PM | 20

In rare public display, Iranian Jews rally in support of nation's nuclear program - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

anybody who has been SLEEPWALKING knows what you have said.

EXCLUDED

pffft.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

its an ugly job.
but somebody has to do it.

told ya - imma tear it down to the ground.
where it belongs.
trodden underfoot.

BradC said:

HA

what - ever.

what rejected the jews...who has

oh now i remember:

The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church. - John Nelson Darby

...

OH LOOK - THIS SOUNDS REALLY FAMILIAR:

2.2 A Distinction Between Israel and the Church

Dispensationalists believe that God has two separate but parallel means of working - one through the Church, the other through Israel (the former being a parenthesis to the latter).[[6]] Thus there is, and always will remain, a distinction, 'between Israel, the Gentiles and the Church.'[[7]] Darby was not the first to insist on a radical distinction between Israel and the Church.

Marcion stressed the radical nature of Christianity vis-a-vis Judaism. In his theology there existed a total discontinuity between the OT and the NT, between Israel and the church, and even between the god of the OT and the Father of Jesus.[[8]]

It was, however, Darby who first insisted that: ‘The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church.’[[9]] Scofield developed this idea further:

Comparing then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny, all is contrast.[[10]]

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and a student of Scofield's, elaborated on this dichotomy between Israel and the church:

The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.[[11]]

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

BradC said:

wow.
so confused.
i wish i could say i feel sorry for you.
i no longer do. i am against you.

BradC said:

why on earth would i add to their confusion - thats your job.

BradC said:

why would i offer the Gospel to them

you said they are BLIND AND EXCLUDED.
just like your deceiver god who promised them a literal earthly Kingdom with Jesus as King 2000 years ago - but they thwarted Him....so He made up a parenthesis afterthought - the CHURCH - which is for NUMBER 2 GOD - your jesus who gets a bride.....so your NUMBER ONE GOD - the father can get his wife back.

and the 2 gods and their two spouses will live happily ever after - NEVER BEING ONE.

BradC said:

the one you teach...ABSOLUTELY.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

wow! TOTALLY BREATHTAKING!

a wonderful fable.

you will be at a 7 year wedding in the air getting rewards and stuff, but anyways.......breathtaking indeed.

no end to the total disregard and reckless destruction of the biblical narrative.

i dont know why youre not terrified.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.

This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.

It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.

It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

BradC · Nov 25, 2013

zone said:

Why would anyone be terrified of mercy rejoicing against judgment and of the hope for Israel?

Acts 28:17-29 17 Three days after [our arrival], he called together the leading local Jews; and when they had gathered, he said to them, Brethren, though I have done nothing against the people or against the customs of our forefathers, yet I was turned over as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
18 After they had examined me, they were ready to release me because I was innocent of any offense deserving the death penalty.
19 But when the Jews protested, I was forced to appeal to Caesar, though it was not because I had any charge to make against my nation.
20 This is the reason therefore why I have begged to see you and to talk with you, since it is because of the Hope of Israel (the Messiah) that I am bound with this chain.
21 And they answered him, We have not received any letters about you from Judea, and none of the [Jewish] brethren coming here has reported or spoken anything evil about you.
22 But we think it fitting and are eager to hear from you what it is that you have in mind and believe and what your opinion is, for with regard to this sect it is known to all of us that it is everywhere denounced.
23 So when they had set a day with him, they came in large numbers to his lodging. And he fully set forth and explained the matter to them from morning until night, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
24 And some were convinced and believed what he said, and others did not believe.
25 And as they disagreed among themselves, they began to leave, [but not before] Paul had added one statement [more]: The Holy Spirit was right in saying through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers:
26 Go to this people and say to them, You will indeed hear and hear with your ears but will not understand, and you will indeed look and look with your eyes but will not see [not perceive, have knowledge of or become acquainted with what you look at, at all].
27 For the heart (the understanding, the soul) of this people has grown dull (stupid, hardened, and calloused), and their ears are heavy and hard of hearing and they have shut tight their eyes, so that they may not perceive and have knowledge and become acquainted with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their souls and turn [to Me and be converted], that I may heal them.
28 So let it be understood by you then that [this message of] the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen [to it]!
29 And when he had said these things, the Jews went away, arguing and disputing among themselves.

Do you believe that this was the last time that the Jews ever heard the gospel or the last time that God gave them light so that they may see and perceive? I would say that when the gospel of salvation went to the Gentiles, many of them were provoked to jealousy and it made them cruel in their blinded state that God brought upon them that you ZONE refuse to believe.

BradC · Nov 25, 2013

zone said:

Zone, you need to show the full context of those posts (no add ons or take aways) that contain these few statements you keep throwing in my face. Then, others can see what was being addressed and and why. I dare you!

zone · Nov 25, 2013

BradC said:

could you please expand on this a little first

Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.

This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.

It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.

It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

...

if you can make sense of your authoritative claim above....show me where the Bible makes that claim, then i will address your white-knuckled fixation on Zechariah 12 (again).

spell it out Red.

tell me all about which gospel is the true gospel....and which one was founded on hate (the jew shall never enter the church)

...

here they are, back-to-back:

EPHESIANS 2
One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.

BradC2
Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.

This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.

It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.

It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

take all the time you need.

zone · Nov 25, 2013

The (Catholic) Church’s Teaching on Supersessionism

By Eugene J. Fisher

For Catholics, the era in which it was possible to espouse any theory that the Christian Church has “superseded” or “replaced” the Jewish people as God’s Chosen People in the history of salvation ended definitively on October 28, 1965. On that day the world’s Catholic bishops, together with the bishop of Rome, Pope Paul VI, signed the declaration, Nostra Aetate (In Our Time), of the Second Vatican Council. Nostra Aetate took the first official, authoritative look at the various supersessionist theories of earlier ages in the centuries-long history of the Church.

BAR 17:02, Mar/Apr 1991

well....that is fascinating.

svedbygrace · Nov 25, 2013

What has been set forth is of extreme importance in understanding OT scripture and how anointed , God ordained men like Paul explains it. The stories, ordinances , statues and covenants and people and things associated there with all have a deeper and spiritual meaning that will be grasped by the spiritually taught. The feast of the passover had a deeper spiritual meaning 1 Cor 5:7

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

The us, the Spiritual Israel..

Other things like the altar, the priesthood, the sacrifices, laver and incense and other items under the OT all have a deeper spiritual meaning that is to be conveyed to God's Covenant People living under the NT..

Lets look at some examples : The altar Ex 27:1

1And thou shalt make an altar of shittim wood, five cubits long, and five cubits broad; the altar shall be foursquare: and the height thereof shall be three cubits.

This was a type and prefigured the spiritual altar of the New Covenant Heb 13:10

10We have an altar[Christ], whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

The Laver of washing Ex 30:18-21

18Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.

19For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:

20When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:

21So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

The laver typifies the once and for all washing of regeneration as well as the continual washing or cleansing in our daily lives from the defilement of sin..

I of course could go on, but the point is to show that OT history typifies and finds it's fulfillment in the NT, that goes for the People as well 86

zone · Nov 25, 2013

Matthew 16
The Pharisees and Sadducees Demand Signs
1And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven. 2He answered them,a “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

The Leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees
5When the disciples reached the other side, they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7And they began discussing it among themselves, saying, “We brought no bread.” 8But Jesus, aware of this, said, “O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? 9Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 11How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rockb I will build my church, and the gates of hellc shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosedd in heaven.” 20Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection
21From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord!e This shall never happen to you.” 23But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrancef to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

......

“Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” 23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

......

According to premillennial dispensationalist Dave Hunt, quoted by Bruce Barron in his book, Heaven on Earth?, God had a "thorough-going change of plans" after Jesus was unable to overcome the antagonism of the Jews. According to Barron, Hunt claims that, "Jesus came to earth initially at the Incarnation to inaugurate the kingdom of God but, when rejected by the Jews, narrowed his agenda and called forth the church instead." Barron shockingly then concludes, taking his cue from Dave Hunt: "Dispensationalists assume that human disobedience can cause God to make considerable midcourse adjustments."

God narrowed his agenda and called forth the church instead

The Israel of God

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