Rebellion

[Markus75]

I get your point Presidente. We have been to europe twice. Since I'm a permanent resident there's certain limits to how much time I can spend out of Canada without losing my PR status.

Misty77, your right when it comes to Saudi. My wife is not adventurous or independent. A country like that would choke her. A trip to McDonalds on her own is a big adventure to her.

 

[presidente]

Your solution for marital harmony is to whisk his wife away to a country where she has no rights? Should we send someone to check your basement for Eastern European "wives"?

If Markus is a decent fellow, that shouldn't be a concern. Saudi came to mind because there is not much to do there but work on your marriage. That's probably less true, though, in an expatriate compound for an oil company. I have a friend whose working there, and apparently there are lots of jobs.

But it's also a country where her slandering her husband may have less of an effect.

I am happily married to one faithful, diligent, beautiful, God-fearing woman who has been quite a blessing to me. If my wife bad-mouthed me and kept running back to her messed up in-laws, though, I might see if I could take her somewhere like Saudi Arabia or some other expat type job situation that could get her away from her family.

 

[Misty77]

If Markus is a decent fellow, that shouldn't be a concern. Saudi came to mind because there is not much to do there but work on your marriage. That's probably less true, though, in an expatriate compound for an oil company. I have a friend whose working there, and apparently there are lots of jobs.

But it's also a country where her slandering her husband may have less of an effect.

I am happily married to one faithful, diligent, beautiful, God-fearing woman who has been quite a blessing to me. If my wife bad-mouthed me and kept running back to her messed up in-laws, though, I might see if I could take her somewhere like Saudi Arabia or some other expat type job situation that could get her away from her family.

Kidnapping and denial of basic civil rights. Sounds like you are the kind to beat her into submission, too.

 

[presidente]

Kidnapping and denial of basic civil rights. Sounds like you are the kind to beat her into submission, too.

You should repent of the evil in your heart. You also owe me an apology (be reconciled to your bearing false witness are sins.)

I never said anything about kidnapping his wife. That came from your imagination. Getting a job in Saudi Arabia isn't the same as beating someone. I've never beat my wife, but you made up garbage about someone and accused him of it publicly.

 

[2Tim3vs16]

I believe that manipulation and control is not Godly but has a different source. Same thing about rebellion.

It's interesting that I happened upon your post, just after watching this video:
Stephen Dollins - Satanic, Occult, Pagan, and Witchcraft Symbols - YouTube

It made some interesting connections between learned attitudes and behavior and how they are influenced. The title doesn't really set you up for what your about to learn. I also found it interesting considering Stephen Dollin's history. It's very insightful in regards to what's going on with humans thinking all over. If you don't mind, I'd also like to know what you thought and if you've made other similar observations yourself? I believe that though Mr. Dollins is addressing current influences/inspirations, but also brings out that humans haven't changed; that we (society) have been inspired by various means, to do, say and write things to promote rebelliousness against authority in general, the same way Eve was deceived. She was convinced that she could make up her own mind and didn't really have to be under the authority of God, or even her husband, for that matter. Our general rebellious behavior is not new. We've been learning how to work it for a long time. If God inspired men to record his own thoughts and desires in the Bible to instruct us; Why can't Satan and Demons do the same thing to influence us to their way of thinking or buying something?

God gave us the Bible so we could learn and be aware of what is going on. So that we could know how to protect ourselves. Because there is no concrete strong enough, nor tunnel deep enough in the earth to protect us from a spiritual threat that Satan poses to us. His attack, is on our personal character, inside our hearts where desire comes from. It's a challenge to our faith and obedience to be the sort of people God wants us to be. Since our spirituality is reflected in our outward speech, thoughts, appearance...our every expression is either to glorify God or it's against him. If we fail to submit ourselves to God's council like your wife and mother-in-law seem to be, then God will see that we are serving another master.

Anyway, I think you will find the information in the video very interesting and may even help you understand or see things different, so that you'll know what you're really dealing with. Then by praying for God's Holy Spirit to guide you thru the Scriptures, you'll know how He thinks you should handle the issue. That's really the only way to make a Biblical informed decisions. You could get a spiritually mature brother to study the Bible with you to help you and for discussion. It's free. Not to mention, it really helps to navigate thru spiritual challenges like what you're experiencing. After all, you are the spiritual leader of your family and your daughter is ultimately your spiritual responsibility no matter what her mother does or says, your example is what God sees you setting and teaching your her when she is in your care and keeping. Your actions teach your daughter weather you are a man who is upholding what is right in Gods eyes or choosing to behave like a contradiction like mom and grandmother. Teach you daughter the difference between Truth and Deception. You start by showing her that you turn to the God of the Bible and using it for guidance and strength and are applying it. Kids are smart and they are watching, eager to learn.

 

[Misty77]

You should repent of the evil in your heart. You also owe me an apology (be reconciled to your bearing false witness are sins.)

I never said anything about kidnapping his wife. That came from your imagination. Getting a job in Saudi Arabia isn't the same as beating someone. I've never beat my wife, but you made up garbage about someone and accused him of it publicly.

It's called discernment. Your verbiage suggests that you believe it is your Christian duty to control your wife. Opining that he take his wife away from her family is one of the first steps toward abuse. The term is isolation. The country you chose is not known for protecting women's civil liberties. That shows that you do not value a woman as an equal human being as a man. Those who deny the full personhood of women easily cross the line to becoming abusers. You fit the profile of an abuser. I didn't say you ever acted on it.

 

[AngelCakes]

It's called discernment. Your verbiage suggests that you believe it is your Christian duty to control your wife. Opining that he take his wife away from her family is one of the first steps toward abuse. The term is isolation. The country you chose is not known for protecting women's civil liberties. That shows that you do not value a woman as an equal human being as a man. Those who deny the full personhood of women easily cross the line to becoming abusers. You fit the profile of an abuser. I didn't say you ever acted on it.

actually it shows that he values his wife and is concerned enough with their marriage that he would do just about anything to make it work.

 

[presidente]

It's called discernment. Your verbiage suggests that you believe it is your Christian duty to control your wife. Opining that he take his wife away from her family is one of the first steps toward abuse. The term is isolation. The country you chose is not known for protecting women's civil liberties.

You sound like someone who is very ethnocentric. You equate an entire country with 'abuse.' Are you a racist?

The problem is in your own head. I didn't say anything about him kidnapping her, carrying her over his shoulder kicked and screaming, and making her go to Saudi Arabia. I chose Saudi because I hear it's boring, there aren't many outside distractions, and there wouldn't be much else but to focus on their marriage (though expat compounds may be more interesting). I also have a friend who got a job in Saudi.

You are displaying a serious problem with judging others.

That shows that you do not value a woman as an equal human being as a man.

That shows that you need to take a course in logic. Maybe you should have spent more time on that instead of women's studies.

Those who deny the full personhood of women easily cross the line to becoming abusers. You fit the profile of an abuser. I didn't say you ever acted on it.

You are seriously messed up in your thinking.

 

[Misty77]

You sound like someone who is very ethnocentric. You equate an entire country with 'abuse.' Are you a racist?

The problem is in your own head. I didn't say anything about him kidnapping her, carrying her over his shoulder kicked and screaming, and making her go to Saudi Arabia. I chose Saudi because I hear it's boring, there aren't many outside distractions, and there wouldn't be much else but to focus on their marriage (though expat compounds may be more interesting). I also have a friend who got a job in Saudi.

You are displaying a serious problem with judging others.



That shows that you need to take a course in logic. Maybe you should have spent more time on that instead of women's studies.



You are seriously messed up in your thinking.

Women are not even allowed to drive cars in Saudi Arabia so it is not a female-friendly country. It's a fact. Just use "the Google." I'll go ahead and give you a freebee: Saudi Arabia’s oppression of women goes way beyond its ban on driving

I used the word "kidnap" in hyperbole (it's a literary device), mostly to emphasize the point that in your example, her consent to the move was not even considered.

I used a syllogism (a formal argument in logic) to prove my point.

My take on the subject is actually well-researched. Again, I did not say you were an abuser; just that on a venn diagram of the characteristics of presidente and the characteristics of a spousal abuser, there is some overlap.

 

[Misty77]

actually it shows that he values his wife and is concerned enough with their marriage that he would do just about anything to make it work.

Love is patient, kind, and humble. Taking a woman away from everyone she knows and loves to live in a country that does not even allow her drive (not considering her to be as fully human as a man) is being controlling and possessive. By all means, a man should go to great lengths to save a relationship without sacrificing his wife in the process.

 

[Markus75]

Friends, settle down. Misty77 and Presidente, I believe you both want my best and have good suggestions. I know people who work in Saudi, although it is an "odd" place, to put it mildly.

The thought has struck me several times to move to the other end of Canada but my wife refuses. She needs a clean break from her family though. That's the only way she can grow up, become more independent and actually learn to rule her own mind.

Many times I encouraged her to join a ladies gym, join some class in the University etc but no. She wants me to go with her. She lacks confidence and is not a self-starter. I'm her complete opposite. I bicycled through Sweden to Poland when I was 17, I have been to several war zones, worked at ER and Forensic Psych. I'd fly to Mongolia tomorrow alone if someone paid the ticket...

 

[Markus75]

It's interesting that I happened upon your post, just after watching this video:
Stephen Dollins - Satanic, Occult, Pagan, and Witchcraft Symbols - YouTube

It made some interesting connections between learned attitudes and behavior and how they are influenced. The title doesn't really set you up for what your about to learn. I also found it interesting considering Stephen Dollin's history. It's very insightful in regards to what's going on with humans thinking all over. If you don't mind, I'd also like to know what you thought and if you've made other similar observations yourself? I believe that though Mr. Dollins is addressing current influences/inspirations, but also brings out that humans haven't changed; that we (society) have been inspired by various means, to do, say and write things to promote rebelliousness against authority in general, the same way Eve was deceived. She was convinced that she could make up her own mind and didn't really have to be under the authority of God, or even her husband, for that matter. Our general rebellious behavior is not new. We've been learning how to work it for a long time. If God inspired men to record his own thoughts and desires in the Bible to instruct us; Why can't Satan and Demons do the same thing to influence us to their way of thinking or buying something?

God gave us the Bible so we could learn and be aware of what is going on. So that we could know how to protect ourselves. Because there is no concrete strong enough, nor tunnel deep enough in the earth to protect us from a spiritual threat that Satan poses to us. His attack, is on our personal character, inside our hearts where desire comes from. It's a challenge to our faith and obedience to be the sort of people God wants us to be. Since our spirituality is reflected in our outward speech, thoughts, appearance...our every expression is either to glorify God or it's against him. If we fail to submit ourselves to God's council like your wife and mother-in-law seem to be, then God will see that we are serving another master.

Anyway, I think you will find the information in the video very interesting and may even help you understand or see things different, so that you'll know what you're really dealing with. Then by praying for God's Holy Spirit to guide you thru the Scriptures, you'll know how He thinks you should handle the issue. That's really the only way to make a Biblical informed decisions. You could get a spiritually mature brother to study the Bible with you to help you and for discussion. It's free. Not to mention, it really helps to navigate thru spiritual challenges like what you're experiencing. After all, you are the spiritual leader of your family and your daughter is ultimately your spiritual responsibility no matter what her mother does or says, your example is what God sees you setting and teaching your her when she is in your care and keeping. Your actions teach your daughter weather you are a man who is upholding what is right in Gods eyes or choosing to behave like a contradiction like mom and grandmother. Teach you daughter the difference between Truth and Deception. You start by showing her that you turn to the God of the Bible and using it for guidance and strength and are applying it. Kids are smart and they are watching, eager to learn.

2Tim3vs16,

I find your post very interesting. I have made many observations about my wifes and her mothers behaviour.

I listen to Derek Prince and have also studied some of his books. The spirit of rebellion is very close to witchcraft. Rebellion is as bad in a marriage as in a church. In my wifes case I'm not fully sure about the roots of her rebellion. One pastor prayed for her deliverance once but she resisted and was not fully delivered. She was manifesting for 3 hours. I know through her friends that she was basically locked up in her moms house still at the age of 29. When she was 28 they refused to let her go to a christian youth conference with older christian ladies. Still her mother claims to be a born again christian. She uses the same language as the pharisees did and tries to bring gifts to any new pastor she finds or bring him home so that she can make an impression and get close to him/her. She refuses to go to the prayer meetings but tries to host her own at home with people she invites. Snake...


Still, I can tell by her voice and her eyes when she is under "different" influences. She screams if I turn of the TV or Computer when she is watching those endless Indian dramas (their equivalent to Glamour, Days of our lives, 90210, Dallas and similar garbage). She spends 2-3 hours a day with that and Facebook.

I suspect that she has been to a fortune teller or touched something occult. When she got saved and left hinduism at the age of 16, I believe she never dealt with the past, just converted.

 

[presidente]

Love is patient, kind, and humble. Taking a woman away from everyone she knows and loves to live in a country that does not even allow her drive (not considering her to be as fully human as a man) is being controlling and possessive. By all means, a man should go to great lengths to save a relationship without sacrificing his wife in the process.

That's how you justify slandering people to yourself.

I get the impression that his wife is controlled by other family members, one of whom may be abusive. Moving out to the desert where she has nothing to focus on but her relationship with her husband and daughter, where her family can't follow her may help her. I'm not Saudi Arabian. I suspect some may find your characterizing them as not considering women to be fully human offensive.

A man taking a job in Saudi Arabia may not be a walk in the park for him either. I hear the expat compounds aren't restrictive for either gender.

Maybe you sit around reading feminist literature or human rights expose's about Saudi Arabia. Maybe you associate the country with these things. But you shouldn't project your ideas about a country to anyone who mentions it. Accusing someone of being a wife beater for suggesting moving to Saudi Arabia or find another expat assignment isn't discernment. It's foolishness and slander. How would you like it if I strung together an argument based on equally scant information and 'discernment' to publically accuse you of being a prostitute? It has about the same stigma to it, maybe less, these days.

 

[presidente]

Markus75,

The deliverance thing is very serious. She does come from a idol-worshipping background, too. I'll pray for her. As her husband, prayer may be your best route.

If she won't move with you to the other side of Canada, Saudi Arabia sure would be a leap. I threw that out there as an extreme example, a place where you could focus on your relationship. If there were a place where you could work way up in the cold in the Northwest Territories or some other place where you actually saw her every day and there were a good school for your daughter, that might be a good change for her. If you were both away from distractions, you could focus on each other. But you'd have to talk her into it. Is there any ally in her household who could help talk her into something like that? If she isn't the adventurous type, is there still a certain place that might appeal to her? What about working on some tropical island paradise somewhere, anywhere with enough of a pull for her to decide to leave her family for a while? A good start would be to get her living in the same house with her husband. How did she end up not staying in your home. Are you de facto separated, or did she just never move out of her parents' place?

Indian dramas, that would be annoying after a while for me. They are better than some of the dramas from some of the other countries, though, in terms of entertainment. But watching TV all the time is not healthy, emotionally or spiritually.

 

[AngelCakes]

Love is patient, kind, and humble. Taking a woman away from everyone she knows and loves to live in a country that does not even allow her drive (not considering her to be as fully human as a man) is being controlling and possessive. By all means, a man should go to great lengths to save a relationship without sacrificing his wife in the process.

when two ppl get married, they become one flesh. sounds like the wife's family is toxic to the marriage and unfortunately she is not the one who is willing to see that and step away from her family in order to preserve her marriage. doesn't mean the husband has no responsibility in regards to saving his marriage. he can't just say 'oh well...she wouldn't leave her family so whatever...'. he does whatever he has to to save their marriage, even if it means moving them both away from their normal lives to a place that is unfamiliar so that they have no choice but to cling to one another.

i wasn't talking about saudi specifically...i think that presidente was only using that place as an example. at least that is the way it seemed to me. taking your wife away from a destructive environment is not controlling and possessive.

Markus75 - just want to clarify that I am in no way implying that you are not doing all that you can to save your marriage. it is too bad that your wife is not willing to go with you. i can't give you any advice on that except to try and persuade her to give it a try for a couple of months or something. altho, if she were to agree to that, sounds like you would have to make some pretty drastic sacrifices since you describe her as someone who is very dependent on you. you'd have to be prepared for that and positive that you would be willing to do it.

i've known people who have been in some pretty rough places in their marriage, bad influences kind of like what you are describing. and the husband did that. he persuaded his wife to move across the country, and now she says that it was the best thing they ever did. really grounded their marriage, you know? i would hope that if i ever started acting like that, my husband would be able to make that leap of faith and pull me away from all the bad influences in my life.

but that's just my opinion

 

[Misty77]

Friends, settle down. Misty77 and Presidente, I believe you both want my best and have good suggestions. I know people who work in Saudi, although it is an "odd" place, to put it mildly.

The thought has struck me several times to move to the other end of Canada but my wife refuses. She needs a clean break from her family though. That's the only way she can grow up, become more independent and actually learn to rule her own mind.

Many times I encouraged her to join a ladies gym, join some class in the University etc but no. She wants me to go with her. She lacks confidence and is not a self-starter. I'm her complete opposite. I bicycled through Sweden to Poland when I was 17, I have been to several war zones, worked at ER and Forensic Psych. I'd fly to Mongolia tomorrow alone if someone paid the ticket...

The sad truth is, you cannot change another person. Your wife has chosen to violate the covenant she made with you before God. You need to seek the advise of your pastor who can get all the details, give you scriptural guidance, and help you reach out to your wife. You also need legal counsel so you can find out how to support and protect your daughter.

And I apologize for my part in derailing your thread. I will not, however, ignore comments that contribute to the prevalence of abuse against women that exists in the more conservative churches. Many studies put that number even higher than in secular communities because when these women reach out for help, they are more likely to be told to go home and submit than to actually receive help. Even if men like presidente are not adding to that number, their words and mindsets let the abusers rationalize their behavior. This can no longer be tolerated in the body of Christ.

 

[Markus75]

Presidente,

I went through deliverance my self and it's often vital for success in the christian life. I got delivered from rage. I pray for her and for myself. Right now my focus is to rebuild my life and establish myself. If I'm a wreck I can't help anyone.

My wife's aunt loves me and wished that I had married her daughter instead. The difference is that the aunt has lived longer in Canada, Is educated and holds a good job, thus she is more confident and understanding. She has tried to talk to her sister(my mother in-law) with no results. Within their culture they mostly mind their own business even if someone is hurting. They're too busy with shallow formalities and concerned of upsetting others. Truth and justice is a lower priority.

I tried to make friends with them and they were happy for awhile, lots of bribes like food, trips etc. We moved in to their house temporarily. Then the demands started raining down and they expected me to submit to them and always sit in the living room and socialize with her mom to keep her ego satisfied. Off course I did not agree. That's not what God called me to do. We had a huge argument and they kicked me out in the streets. From there I started a new life, AGAIN, in march this year.

I have my own faults and weaknesses. I'm cooling down. I got a call from my wife telling me that she is searching for her own apartment so she can move out from moms house. Good news!

Still it is like there is an invisible umblical corde that was never cut spiritually. I pray for wisdom. Can't do much else. If I confront them, it will get messy.

 

[presidente]

I have my own faults and weaknesses. I'm cooling down. I got a call from my wife telling me that she is searching for her own apartment so she can move out from moms house. Good news!.

If you are in the same city, why can't you solve her problem by having her move in with a roommate-- you?

 

[presidente]

Many studies put that number even higher than in secular communities because when these women reach out for help, they are more likely to be told to go home and submit than to actually receive help. Even if men like presidente are not adding to that number, their words and mindsets let the abusers rationalize their behavior. This can no longer be tolerated in the body of Christ.

Working with abused women is a needed ministry. Unfortunately, much of the social work with abused women is done by radical feminists with a very toxic attitude towards men. In some cases, a lot of damage to society is done in the name of not abusing women. Here locally, an organization whose name has something to do with being against abusing women fought against doing away with laws that basically give parental rights to the mother in almost every case of divorce and turn the father into a visitor in the child's life. Politicians and other people are like, "Hey, I'm against abusing women, too." so they back off. The law is unfair and damaging to children.

You've got your own set of experiences and your own backgrounds. Maybe you've had a bad experience with a man or men. Don't project that onto other men. You seem to have a hair trigger. But you've got to stop reading 'abuse' into everything. Accusing a man of wife beating is like accusing a woman of being a whore. It's several notches down from accusing someone of being a child molester. To do something like that based on no evidence like you did is very low class. You need to repent. If you are hanging out with man-haters who think it's okay to do that, you need to consider who you are hanging around with, because it can influence your thinking. You can also do a lot of damage to others, and even yourself going around making accusations like that. A reasonable thing to do would be to humble a little and apologize, and be reconciled to your brother like Matthew 5 says. I'm willing to let by-gones be by-gones. I've said things I've regretted before. If you want to stick to your guns and keep justifying yourself, I'm just asking the Lord to correct you. It's easier and better, though, to settle matters quickly.

 

[presidente]

Markus75,

I'm married to a woman from an Asian country. I know the expectations of family can be quite different and seem rather heavy to a western man. One thought a friend married to a woman from the same country shared before I got married was that he tried to treat his wife's parents like his own, including 'Honor thy father and mother.' Since two become one flesh, that makes sense. Jesus' interpretation of 'Honor thy father and mother' included financial provision according to Matthew 15. His friend's wife's mother was wealthy. My in-laws definitely are not. We have been away and haven't been able to help, but back when I lived relatively near and was working, they had a lot of different financial expectations than an American family would. That's fine. Socially, there are a lot of obligations, too.

As a husband, you should try to help your wife honor her father and mother. And to do that, you need to have a relationship with them, too. If you've yelled at her mom, you'll need to apologize for that and do what you can to be at peace with them. I'd guess their culture is like traditional western culture and also Hebrew culture as shown in the Old Testament where the woman, at marriage, becomes a part of the man's household and family. Was her staying with them the outcome of a huge quarrel you had with her mother? If it is, and you can make peace with your mother, you may be able to free her from living in her mother's house.