What's so bad about calvinism?

[Sharp]

Alot of people seem to find calvinism abhorrent. I want to know why.

I find the concept of limited atonement slightly objectionable, but other than this I find no major problems with Calvin's teaching, so far.

I know many would object to the concept of perseverance of the saints, but this is an obvious one which need not be discussed, again.

If you are offended by calvinism, please tell me why, as I'd really like to know.

Thanks.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Well for starters, it's unbiblical. Let's just go down to list of TULIP. The 5 points of calvinism.

Total Depravity. (it says that man has fallen from God's grace and cannot seek it unless God makes the first *move*, you know the Holy Spirit.)

Unconditional Election. (It says that God's will is to only save *some* people, and first of all it's not even there choice to be saved. (Based on calvinism, but we'll get to that later) That clearly contradicts with Scripture like "It is not God's will for any to perish".)

Limited Atonement. (Iit says Jesus ONLY died for the *elect*, the ones God choses before the creation of the World to be saved, and chose some to go to hell (having nothing to do with there sin, just simply God's choice is all. This is totally unbiblical.)

Irresistable Grace. (it says when the Holy Spirit or the regeneration comes upon you, you have absolutely no choice whatsoever to chose or reject Christ, because God has already chose you. Irresistible Grace is related to the Calvinist version of Unconditional election meaning ...God chooses you to go to heaven or hell before you are born).

Preservation of the Saints. (It is just like eternal security, I am sure you have heard of this doctrine before but in other words. It's just saying that you cannot lose your salvation because you did nothing to earn your salvation.)

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Well for starters, it's unbiblical. Let's just go down to list of TULIP. The 5 points of calvinism.

Total Depravity. (it says that man has fallen from God's grace and cannot seek it unless God makes the first *move*, you know the Holy Spirit.)

Man has fallen from grace, God's grace through the faith of Christ is a free gift.

Unconditional Election. (It says that God's will is to only save *some* people, and first of all it's not even there choice to be saved. (Based on calvinism, but we'll get to that later) That clearly contradicts with Scripture like "It is not God's will for any to perish".)

Any of His sheep He means, He will say to those on His left hand 'depart from Me you workers of iniquity'. Of course fallen man is not capable of saving himself, we don't elect ourselves, God does that.

Limited Atonement. (Iit says Jesus ONLY died for the *elect*, the ones God choses before the creation of the World to be saved, and chose some to go to hell (having nothing to do with there sin, just simply God's choice is all. This is totally unbiblical.)

Jesus died for all those that have been given to Him, all those that are His sheep, but some are not His sheep.

Irresistable Grace. (it says when the Holy Spirit or the regeneration comes upon you, you have absolutely no choice whatsoever to chose or reject Christ, because God has already chose you. Irresistible Grace is related to the Calvinist version of Unconditional election meaning ...God chooses you to go to heaven or hell before you are born).

The sinner has no will that can oppose Christ, God's will is stronger, Christ sends the Holy Spirit to those He has pre-destined to be co-heirs with Him, as it says 'you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you'...

Preservation of the Saints. (It is just like eternal security, I am sure you have heard of this doctrine before but in other words. It's just saying that you cannot lose your salvation because you did nothing to earn your salvation.)

Christ loses none of His sheep, it is impossible to be seperated from Jesus Christ once He has determined your salvation.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Man has fallen from grace, God's grace through the faith of Christ is a free gift.



Any of His sheep He means, He will say to those on His left hand 'depart from Me you workers of iniquity'. Of course fallen man is not capable of saving himself, we don't elect ourselves, God does that.



Jesus died for all those that have been given to Him, all those that are His sheep, but some are not His sheep.



The sinner has no will that can oppose Christ, God's will is stronger, Christ sends the Holy Spirit to those He has pre-destined to be co-heirs with Him, as it says 'you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you'...





Christ loses none of His sheep, it is impossible to be seperated from Jesus Christ once He has determined your salvation.

You can prove Arminianism and Calvinism with the bible. As far as the two extremes go I am going to go with Molinism.

John 6:65 means that apart from God's grace no one can come to God on his own. But there's no suggestion there that those who refused to believe in Christ did not do so of their own free will. God knows in exactly what circumstances people will freely respond to His grace and places people in circumstances in which each one receives sufficient grace for salvation if only that person will avail himself of it. But God knows who will respond and who won't. So again the fault does not lie with God that some persons freely resist God's grace and every effort to save them; rather they fail to attain salvation because they refuse to have faith.

Quote from Dr William Lane Craig.


Anyway God bless you.

 

[watchmen]

Alot of people seem to find calvinism abhorrent. I want to know why.

I find the concept of limited atonement slightly objectionable, but other than this I find no major problems with Calvin's teaching, so far.

I know many would object to the concept of perseverance of the saints, but this is an obvious one which need not be discussed, again.

If you are offended by calvinism, please tell me why, as I'd really like to know.

Thanks.

Basically it teaches that God knew who He was going to saved from Hell, and who He was going to send to Hell before He created the Earth. Those that He has chosen to send to Hell have no chance for salvation, and those He has chosen to saved have no choice. This is abhorrent, some He forces Himself on against their will, and other He refuses to even give an opportunity for salvation. WOW, that is not the God of the gospel, nor is it a god of love. My God, the God of the Bible is love, and has made a way for us all.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Ga 1:6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Ga 1:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.Ga 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Ga 1:9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Joh 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

According to this Gospel that John Preached, everyone is condemned Already, but those that believe will not receive that condemnation,

Re 22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
certainly sounds like a choice to me and if one says that we don't have a choice then that is a different Gospel and we didn't but God said let them be accursed,that is why calvinism is so bad, paul didn't preached it either, what paul has preached was twisted for If paul really preached that the elect were saved already in why did he also preach and live by this

2ti 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Joh 5:34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye MIGHT BE SAVED.


here in john if calvin is the bibical doctrine of salvation, John 5:34 should read "But I receive not the testimony from man: but these things I write to the saved" for how can one become saved if they were already saved before time begin.

 

[Densetzu]

Calvinism is basically a doctrine for people who need to feel special, that they've been chosen by God for a unique honor that he doesn't give to everyone, and everyone else is wicked.

 

[Stanton]

The only problem is that no one has proven why Calvinism is wrong in a theological stance and proven it with the bible. Yes Thaddaeus used a bunch of scripture but does it tie into proving that Calvinism is wrong. By no means! I believe we do have a free moral agency but not a free will. The meaning of a free will would mean I can do whatever the heck I want with no influence from God or Satan. Meaning that God is not sovereign in any way shape or form. This is totally unbiblical considering that God is in control of everything. If He wasn't then He wouldn't be God. Does that make sense?

God's Sovereignty

1. Rom. 11:8, "just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.'"
2. Mark 4:11-12, "And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."
3. 2 Thess. 2:11, "And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false."
4. Rom. 9:18, "So thenHe has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
5. Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
   1. See also Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:4 where God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
   2. Exodus 8:32, "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."
6. Exodus 14:17, "And as for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen."
7. Deut. 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."
8. 2 Chron. 25:20, "But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom."
9. Isaiah 6:10, "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."
10. Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

Also along with the fact that us as being totally depraved evil beings that nothing is good inside of us except God. When we do as Romans 10:9 says for us to do thats when God's goodness comes in. When we aren't following God it shows our depravity.

1. Jer. 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
2. Mark 7:21-23, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
3. John 3:19, "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."
4. John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
5. Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; 12All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”
6. Rom. 5:6, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
7. Rom. 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."
8. Rom. 7:18, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."
9. Rom. 7:23, "but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."
10. 1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
    1. 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Paul did not come by the power of human wisdom, but the power of the Holy Spirit.
    2. 1 Cor. 2:6-9, Paul speaks God’s wisdom which the world does not understand.
    3. 1 Cor. 2:10, The Spirit of God reveals the sacred and spiritual things of God.
    4. 1 Cor. 2:11-12, Christians have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of God, which is why the Christians know the things freely given from God.
    5. 1 Cor. 2:13-14, "which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
       1. Therefore, 1 Cor. 2:14 is not saying that the natural man, the unregenerate person, cannot understand God's wisdom, it is also saying that they cannot understand because they do not have the Spirit of God. This means that the unsaved cannot understand spiritual things because they do not have the Spirit of God.
11. Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
12. Eph. 2:3, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
    1. In this verse "nature" is the Greek phusei. It is the dative case (indirect object). This means that the text is not saying that we are by nature children of wrath because we sin. It is saying that we are by nature children of wrath.
13. 1 Tim. 1:9, "Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers."

If you haven't realized I am a calvinist =). If you have any questions I would like to hear them and answer them to the best of my ability. But i would say you must be able to prove it through the Bible rather than opinion.

 

[Densetzu]

Free will is a poorly named term. What most people mean when they say free will is moral agency.

Free will would mean that we can freely determine what our desires are, without the influence of everything that is 'not me'. Moral agency means that no matter what we desire, we can make a choice. I may want to take revenge on that jerk who cut across my lane this morning, but I can choose not to.

 

[watchmen]

The only problem is that no one has proven why Calvinism is wrong in a theological stance and proven it with the bible. Yes Thaddaeus used a bunch of scripture but does it tie into proving that Calvinism is wrong.

It is easy to prove Calvinism wrong, however no calvinist will accept that. The teaching is that all who God wills to be saved will be saved. However scripture says that God wills all to be saved. So if Calvinist truly believed that then they would be universalist.

1st Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.



2nd Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


1st John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


It is God's will that all be saved!!!!! That in itself proves Calvinism wrong.

 

[Mobius]

Alot of people seem to find calvinism abhorrent. I want to know why.

I find the concept of limited atonement slightly objectionable, but other than this I find no major problems with Calvin's teaching, so far.

I know many would object to the concept of perseverance of the saints, but this is an obvious one which need not be discussed, again.

If you are offended by calvinism, please tell me why, as I'd really like to know.

Thanks.

When I think of calvinism, at this point, I kinda think of the kind of Christians that don't tend to be overly empathetic, or particularly concerned about others' souls. I know it's not a valid cross section of them, and I know it's not EXACTLY doctrinal, but I do see its roots in the teachings of calvinism.

Firstly, any form of predestination mindset troubles me deeply. Where IS the motivation to strive to show anybody the light, if not only is the future already written but G-d may have already predetermined that they're going to hell?

I think that can explain a little of the "coldness" that I seem to get from SOME (not all) calvinists.

And there's all of smaller doctrinal problems that pop up in relation to predestination, too. For example, if it's all written, then we don't really choose to sin, and then we're not being judged in an equitable manner of who chose to follow Him, vs who chose to reject Him, but it's just sort of arbitrary, and we're being judged for things over which we have no control.

Then we look at Messiah. The Bible says "Greater love hath no man than this- that He lay down His life for His friends" and yet does it have the same "oomph" if He didn't really lay down His life, but it was simply pre-ordained? Is it even an act of love ? For that matter, doesn't His being "tempted" become somewhat meaningless, if in fact, Him sinning was never really a possilbility in the first place? Of course, I know many believe Messiah to be G-d, and that particular conundrum remains the same, of how can He be tempted, the way WE are tempted, if in fact it was impossible for Him to sin?

Personally, MY biggest problem with any form of predestination is the sociological consequences that history shows can result from this line of thinking. Just looking at the brief history of America, predestination has been used (perhaps wrongly) as an excuse for defending the status quo.

From "manifest destiny" to the KKK and so-called "christian identity" these things can only fit in a predestinationist worldview... I.e. "Since white people run the show, obviously that's what G-d intended, so trying to change that would be going against G-d." ANY form of social injustice, I can't see any reason why a calvinist would worry about fighting these things.

My thoughts aren't very organized, I hope some of it makes sense.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

It is easy to prove Calvinism wrong, however no calvinist will accept that. The teaching is that all who God wills to be saved will be saved. However scripture says that God wills all to be saved. So if Calvinist truly believed that then they would be universalist.

1st Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.



2nd Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


1st John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


It is God's will that all be saved!!!!! That in itself proves Calvinism wrong.

So you believe in universal salvation, however God only saves what is His, not that which is not His, also God is in Covenant, the blood for the remission of sin is binding for those in Covenant, for those outside the blood does not cover them, they are on there own. If He willed every single human being to be saved than it would be done and it would be universal salvation, however the Bible is quite clear, that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and even some that do confess are still not saved, they will have to depart from Him and will be outside the kcoming kingdom, it is clear that not all will be saved.

 

[Definition_Christ]

So you believe in universal salvation, however God only saves what is His, not that which is not His, also God is in Covenant, the blood for the remission of sin is binding for those in Covenant, for those outside the blood does not cover them, they are on there own. If He willed every single human being to be saved than it would be done and it would be universal salvation, however the Bible is quite clear, that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and even some that do confess are still not saved, they will have to depart from Him and will be outside the kcoming kingdom, it is clear that not all will be saved.

Actually you are the one who believes in universal salvation. I say that because you believe in irresistible grace.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

According to you, they can't reject that grace therefore ALL MEN are saved.

 

[watchmen]

It is easy to prove Calvinism wrong, however no calvinist will accept that. The teaching is that all who God wills to be saved will be saved. However scripture says that God wills all to be saved. So if Calvinist truly believed that then they would be universalist.

1st Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.



2nd Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


1st John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


It is God's will that all be saved!!!!! That in itself proves Calvinism wrong.

So you believe in universal salvation.

No I do not believe in universal salvation. What i said is if everyone that God wants to be saved were to be saved then all would be saved because it is God's will that all be saved. Therefore there is no way Calvinism could be true. Either univeralism or Arminism can be true according to the fact that it is God's will that all be saved. I am not an univeralist, so what is left?

 

[watchmen]

So you believe in universal salvation, however God only saves what is His, not that which is not His, also God is in Covenant, the blood for the remission of sin is binding for those in Covenant, for those outside the blood does not cover them, they are on there own. If He willed every single human being to be saved than it would be done and it would be universal salvation, however the Bible is quite clear, that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and even some that do confess are still not saved, they will have to depart from Him and will be outside the kcoming kingdom, it is clear that not all will be saved.

Actually you are the one who believes in universal salvation. I say that because you believe in irresistible grace.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

According to you, they can't reject that grace therefore ALL MEN are saved.

Exactly D_C.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Firstly, any form of predestination mindset troubles me deeply. Where IS the motivation to strive to show anybody the light, if not only is the future already written but G-d may have already predetermined that they're going to hell?

"Thy will be done" it's not our will but His will.

And there's all of smaller doctrinal problems that pop up in relation to predestination, too. For example, if it's all written, then we don't really choose to sin, and then we're not being judged in an equitable manner of who chose to follow Him, vs who chose to reject Him, but it's just sort of arbitrary, and we're being judged for things over which we have no control.

"You did not choose Me, but it was I who choose you"

Another example of God's sovereign will is John 9. Jesus heals a blind man and His diciples ask "Master who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind." Jesus answers; "Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents (to cause blindness) but the works of God should be made manifest in him"

Then we look at Messiah. The Bible says "Greater love hath no man than this- that He lay down His life for His friends" and yet does it have the same "oomph" if He didn't really lay down His life, but it was simply pre-ordained? Is it even an act of love ? For that matter, doesn't His being "tempted" become somewhat meaningless, if in fact, Him sinning was never really a possilbility in the first place? Of course, I know many believe Messiah to be G-d, and that particular conundrum remains the same, of how can He be tempted, the way WE are tempted, if in fact it was impossible for Him to sin?

He was offered to sin, did He partake in the sin, No, why? It was impossible for Him to sin, He was God.

Personally, MY biggest problem with any form of predestination is the sociological consequences that history shows can result from this line of thinking. Just looking at the brief history of America, predestination has been used (perhaps wrongly) as an excuse for defending the status quo.

I agree. It can be used as an excuse to defend the status quo.

From "manifest destiny" to the KKK and so-called "christian identity" these things can only fit in a predestinationist worldview... I.e. "Since white people run the show, obviously that's what G-d intended, so trying to change that would be going against G-d." ANY form of social injustice, I can't see any reason why a calvinist would worry about fighting these things.
.

I don't know what you mean 'white people run the show', the most powerful man in the world at the moment is not a 'white man'.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Exactly D_C.

I pointed out earlier that God is in Covenant, all men are those in Covenant, they are covered by the blood, if not then salvation is universal and the blood is null and void, can you be saved without the blood? No, God declares He only sees the salvation of man via the blood of Jesus for the remission of sin, otherwise you are dead, you are already dead, no need to call you are man if you are dead in sins, God wills the salvation of man, not the choice of a dead sinner.

 

[Leilaii425]

God knew all of us before we were even born, he knew what path we were going to choose in life, weather or not we were going to accept him. So obviously he created people he knew would go to hell.

 

[watchmen]

God knew all of us before we were even born, he knew what path we were going to choose in life, weather or not we were going to accept him. So obviously he created people he knew would go to hell.

This may be true, but He did not decide too send them to Hell with out given them any chance for salvation as taught by the calvinist. He does know the end from the beginning that does not mean that He has predetermined our every choice for us.

 

[watchmen]

I pointed out earlier that God is in Covenant, all men.

You can point out whatever you want , but that doesn't change the fact that all men actually means all men, and not just certain men God has chosen.